I was playing a game with a friend tonight and a question came up if entrapment formation would trigger engine techs. I'm sure this might have come up on here before, but couldn't find it. We decided yes because we had limited time to play. If anyone could post a link to a previous post or has an answer it would be appreciated. Thanks!

You have to discard the token at the beginning of the ship phase to trigger EF. You don't get to resolve the token during an activation so no ET.

No, they have no effect on each other.

Entrapment formation happens if you fulfill the requirement st the start of the turn.

Engne techs only happens when you resolve s mavigate command. Which is a totally different thing.

Thanks for the response everyone! I'll pass this along to my friend and Armada group.

Man, this just brought up a whole new corner case in my head. Dumb thought:

1) Ship A triggers Entrapment formation

2) Ship B (at speed 1) has a Navigate Command (token, dial, don’t care) available. It has engine techs

3) Ship B goes through activation and uses Navigate command. Changes speed from 1 to 3 through Navigate and EF. EF changes speed because determine course step occurs when executing maneuver.

4) Ship B then executes a speed 1 maneuver due to engine techs. Which then involves a determine course step. Which then allows Entrapment formation to:

a) Do nothing

b) Increase/decrease ship B’s speed on the dial but it still only gets a speed 1 ET maneuver.

c) Allows a speed 2 maneuver from ET as the ship is temporarily at speed 1 and EF allows a speed change?

I just dove down a potential rules rabbit hole and could use Dras to do more reading than I want to

Every other upgrade allows a ship to use it each time the trigger window opens, but only once during the window. EF is triggered by the determine course step starting and engine techs seems to clearly generate a second determine course step. Seems one option B?

At best , the argument would allow you to change the speed on your dial a second time during the Engine Tech Maneuver.

But because the Engine Tech Maneuver is always at speed one, regardless of what is on your dial... Your Engine Tech Maneuver will still be Speed 1.

This would (potentially) allow a ship to Start at Speed 1.

Jump to Speed 3 during its Turn. Perform a Speed 1 Additional Maneuver, and start the next turn at Speed 4.......

Thanks Dras. That was my impression, but didn’t think hard about it and how or if the interactions with G8s would apply

Either way, a speed 2 ET maneuver would be a bit broken. Speed 5 Liberties, speed 6 CR90s...

The best way is to keep in your mind that Entrapment Formation, Phylom Q7 Tractor Beams, Admiral Konstantine, a Navigate Dial... All of those things effect the Speed that is on your dial .

The real only exceptions to that are:

Engine Techs/Quantum Storm doesn't give a whiff of a care what is on your Dial. Its Speed 1.

and

G8s don't care whats on your dial. Its going to take the speed of your maneuver and reduce it to one... This is often derived from the Dial, but in some cases (like Quantum Storm/Engine Techs) its derived from elsewhere.

I... I think that works.

As stated, it's not going to affect your Engine Techs maneuver. But:

1. It would double the potency of EF, as it allows you to change speed once before your maneuver, plus a second time after your maneuver, plus a third time before your next maneuver. ETs+EF is a lot of flexibility, so that's just bumping your options up even more.
2. It would make QBTs easy to get off, as it'd be one of the few effects that allows you to change your speed dial between one turn's maneuver and the next turn's shooting. Often you want to make a speed X maneuver, but with QBTs you want you to be at speed X-1 or X-2 next shooting phase. This trick would let you have both - at speed 1, you could travel speed 3 but start your next turn with a dial still at 1.

It's a corner case, and doesn't seem broken, imo. The QBTs interaction only affects the Arquitens and Neb, and Pelta; and EF+ETs is already making you crazy flexible anyways. I reserve the right to revoke that opinion if Cymoon w/ EF + ETs Demolisher builds start slaying me.

1 hour ago, Drasnighta said:

The best way is to keep in your mind that Entrapment Formation, Phylom Q7 Tractor Beams, Admiral Konstantine, a Navigate Dial... All of those things effect the Speed that is on your dial .

The real only exceptions to that are:

Engine Techs/Quantum Storm doesn't give a whiff of a care what is on your Dial. Its Speed 1.

and

G8s don't care whats on your dial. Its going to take the speed of your maneuver and reduce it to one... This is often derived from the Dial, but in some cases (like Quantum Storm/Engine Techs) its derived from elsewhere.

Can I get some kind of developer response or something explaining that distinction for G8? Both cards say change the speed of the ship during determine course step (one temporarily). Barring an errata or clarification I didn’t notice, it seems that G8s applying to the ET maneuver lets EF apply as well.

Its because G8 is temporarily until the end of the maneuver. ONLY because it says so in the FAQ, essentially.

Essentially, there is a big, big, BIG difference between temporary Speed Changes, which do not change your Dial. (Engine Techs/Quantum Storm, G8 Experimental and Ramming/Overlap)

And Speed Changes that DO change your dial.

EF! changes your Speed.

That means changes your dial.

Changing your Dial does nothing to the speed of an Engine Techs Maneuver.

By the ruling in the FAQ, G8s affect the temporary speed 1 of the engine tech maneuver. Why would we not use that precedent on other cards? Why the inconsistent application of the rules?

Im running Devil’s advocate here. I haven’t seen anything decisively saying no yet besides “because the FAQ says so and we aren’t following precedent.” I actually think balance-wise it should only apply to the speed dial and not the speed of the ET maneuver. I’ve yet to hear anything concrete to support this yet

Also, I only care about G8s as a precedent because they are the only two that have that same trigger that I’m aware of. Phyllo Q7 have a distinctinly different trigger

11 minutes ago, Church14 said:

Also, I only care about G8s as a precedent because they are the only two that have that same trigger that I’m aware of. Phyllo Q7 have a distinctinly different trigger

Look, you're asking for an explanation, when the answer given to us by FFG was "Do it this way." with no explanation.

When a ship is instructed to change its speed , it does so by changing the speed dial.

That is what Entrapment Formation does.

That is not what G8 Experimental Projectors do.

The word "temporarily" is very powerful in that precedent.

Let me grab the two Card:






RRG
Speed
A ship’s speed determines how far it must move each activation; the ship’s current speed is tracked on its speed dial. A squadron’s speed value indicates the farthest distance band that the squadron can move into.

• A ship’s speed is constant until the ship resolves a M command or uses an upgrade card effect to change speed.

And of course, the G8 FAQ sates, in part:

This effect can be resolved on an enemy ship that is executing a maneuver from an effect such as Engine Techs. This effect is resolved before the Determine Course step of that maneuver and reduces the ship’s temporary speed by 1 to a minimum of 0.

So basically, there are 2 Speeds to worry about... In Precedence ...

The Ships Speed is what is on the Dial.

The Ships Temporary Speed is what it is going.

G8s can effect both Speed (Temporarily), and Temporary Speed (as described)

Entrapment Formation Does Not Effect The Temporary Speed of a Ship .

Only its Actual Speed.

Which can follow on to its Temporary Speed.

But isn't it.

You are adding weight to the word “temporarily” in G8 text when it is completely irrelevant. Remove it and the card works the exact same. The “until the end of the maneuver” makes certain of that. There are lots of temporary effects that last for a set period, like all of the Fleet Command upgrades. Temporarily was likely added for clarity and - here’s the critical part - doesn’t change or affect the meaning of the text at all.

The clarification of G8 in the FAQ makes no indication it was special and sets the precedent that cards which manipulate speed during the determine course step function during ANY maneuver. The only cards to which this applies are G8 and EF. Nothing I can see in the FAQ indicates that the fact that versions of the word “temporary” show up in both G8 and the description of the second maneuver”s speed is significant.

For your interpretation to work, FFG has to come out and say “yes, G8s are special and break the rules,” errata G8s to have more text to make effecting the ET/QS move special, or give a reason why there is a distinction. As of now there isn’t one. Seems like it applies.

I was was looking for a simple explanation of why it doesn’t work and I’m finding there isn’t one. Precedent and consistent application of the rules and card text seem to say it does.

I’m calling Team Mauve. Mostly because I’m never going to have a real reason to use that color elsewhere

EDIT: Funny enough, as a TO and the person running another CC campaign, I’ll refuse to use my own interpretation and go with the less powerful version until I can get something from FFG.

5 minutes ago, Church14 said:

You are adding weight to the word “temporarily” in G8 text when it is completely irrelevant. Remove it and the card works the exact same. The “until the end of the maneuver” makes certain of that. There are lots of temporary effects that last for a set period, like all of the Fleet Command upgrades. Temporarily was likely added for clarity and - here’s the critical part - doesn’t change or affect the meaning of the text at all.

The clarification of G8 in the FAQ makes no indication it was special and sets the precedent that cards which manipulate speed during the determine course step function during ANY maneuver. The only cards to which this applies are G8 and EF. Nothing I can see in the FAQ indicates that the fact that versions of the word “temporary” show up in both G8 and the description of the second maneuver”s speed is significant.

For your interpretation to work, FFG has to come out and say “yes, G8s are special and break the rules,” errata G8s to have more text to make effecting the ET/QS move special, or give a reason why there is a distinction. As of now there isn’t one. Seems like it applies.

I was was looking for a simple explanation of why it doesn’t work and I’m finding there isn’t one. Precedent and consistent application of the rules and card text seem to say it does.

I’m calling Team Mauve. Mostly because I’m never going to have a real reason to use that color elsewhere

EDIT: Funny enough, as a TO and the person running another CC campaign, I’ll refuse to use my own interpretation and go with the less powerful version until I can get something from FFG.

You won’t though. ?

its a Solved issue to them.

to me, you have failed to show how changing a ships speed can make a speed 1 maneuver speed 2, when the speed is defined as what is on the dial.

in short, we had this argument previously... what we have now is the result of the responses we got.

21 minutes ago, Drasnighta said:

You won’t though. ?

its a Solved issue to them.

to me, you have failed to show how changing a ships speed can make a speed 1 maneuver speed 2, when the speed is defined as what is on the dial.

in short, we had this argument previously... what we have now is the result of the responses we got.

The FAQ shows that cards which change speed during the determine course step work on the temporary speed during an additional maneuver. The only way it doesn’t is if FFG says G8 is special

That clarification makes it clear that you treat that additional maneuver with the same set of steps as your first. You do it with a temporary speed of 1. You don’t set the “Temporary Speed,” you just use a temporary speed. “Temporary Speed” is not a key phrase.

You want a reaction from FFG, go bring a fleet based on this to the judge at a regional, show them the rules, and when/if they agree, run it. People being forced to face speed 4 Home Ones and speed 5 Liberties will bring this one to a forefront.

There isnt a way for G8s to affect ET and EF doesn’t without errata to G8 adding text, a rules change, or inconsistent application of the rules.

1 hour ago, Church14 said:

The FAQ shows that cards which change speed during the determine course step work on the temporary speed during an additional maneuver. The only way it doesn’t is if FFG says G8 is special

That clarification makes it clear that you treat that additional maneuver with the same set of steps as your first. You do it with a temporary speed of 1. You don’t set the “Temporary Speed,” you just use a temporary speed. “Temporary Speed” is not a key phrase.

You want a reaction from FFG, go bring a fleet based on this to the judge at a regional, show them the rules, and when/if they agree, run it. People being forced to face speed 4 Home Ones and speed 5 Liberties will bring this one to a forefront.

There isnt a way for G8s to affect ET and EF doesn’t without errata to G8 adding text, a rules change, or inconsistent application of the rules.

::facepalm::

You act as if this is a new issue.

Its not.

That's what I'm talking about.

FFG has already gone through the above basically, and made their decision and rulings. Because it was brought up when entrapment formation was released .

That's what I'm trying to get through to you now - the discussion and my position is based aroudn the answers we got from FFG. They are hidden right here in the Rules Thread. I just can't find them for you right now... (Partially because I'm too emotional, partially because the search engine doesn't always even do what *I* say correctly).

So I'm sorry if I'm a little short. But I'm rehashing an argument with you that I don't feel needs to be done, because it was done before .

If you need something specific and special in an FAQ to be able to be satisfied, then I'm sorry. I can't do that for you.

YOU have to do that.

With incessent and continual demands through the Rules Feedback page to do so.

3 hours ago, Church14 said:

By the ruling in the FAQ, G8s affect the temporary speed 1 of the engine tech maneuver. Why would we not use that precedent on other cards? Why the inconsistent application of the rules?

Im running Devil’s advocate here. I haven’t seen anything decisively saying no yet besides “because the FAQ says so and we aren’t following precedent.” I actually think balance-wise it should only apply to the speed dial and not the speed of the ET maneuver. I’ve yet to hear anything concrete to support this yet

A speed 1 maneuver is still a speed 1 maneuver.

How does Entrapment change that?

At best you're over thinking.

3 minutes ago, Green Knight said:

A speed 1 maneuver is still a speed 1 maneuver.

How does Entrapment change that?

At best you're over thinking.

FAQ, page 6, bottom left. You temporarily set the ship speed to the speed of the extra maneuver. Then go through determine course step. Then, EF triggers and increases the ship’s speed and bam, a speed 2 engine tech

Dras:

I wasn’t aware of the thread and my first search-fu missed it.

Ok, in my simple world a speed 1 maneuver is speed 1.

There is no opportunity to change it (save G8). Not with entrapment, not with a command.

Anyway. Carry on with your discussion.

From RRG

If a ship executes a maneuver and its final position would overlap another ship, it cannot finish its maneuver
normally. Instead, temporarily reduce its speed by one (without changing the speed dial) and move the ship at the new speed. This process continues until the ship can finish its maneuver, even if that maneuver is to remain in place at speed “0.” Then deal one facedown damage card to the ship that moved and the closest ship that it overlapped.

I think overlapping rule is a huge precedence about how temporarily speed changes work.

or maybe I missed the point of the argue completely.

Also from the FAQ

Q: When an effect instructs a ship to execute a maneuver outside of its usual Execute Maneuver step, what is that ship’s speed?
A: While executing that additional maneuver, the ship’s speed is temporarily set to the speed indicated by the effect that is resolved. The ship executes the maneuver by completing the Determine Course and Move Ship steps. The ship’s current speed is still tracked by its speed dial, and the ship does not count as having changed its speed.

EDIT 2:

Also, g8 is not necessarily an exception. I have been changing my ET's speed (temporarily) since wave1 to double ram Yavaris. Changing temporary speed is possible since the beginning as long as your change it temporarily. That is what overlapping and g8 do.