So it seems like the 'base' stronghold stats are +2 defense, 11 honor, +7 fate, 10 influence, and an ability. The Crane, Dragon and Phoenix strongholds have these baseline stats.

The Scorpion stronghold has 1 less defense and 1 less starting honor. The Unicorn have 2 less defense and 1 less starting honor. The Crab have 1 more defense and 1 less starting honor. The Lion have 1 more starting honor.

The Crab clan I can understand from a design perspective: the higher defense has a tradeoff of lower starting honor. However, the Lion stat line is simply better than the baseline, having one extra honor at no 'cost', while Scorpion and Unicorn have less defense and honor. There doesn't seem to be a counterbalance to these strengths or weaknesses. So my question is: what is the design behind the varied stronghold stats? Are the abilities on the stronghold simply more powerful? Are the rest of the Unicorn cards a bit better than the other clans, creating a need to weaken their stronghold a little bit? Is it simply a flavor/thematic description of the clans, meant to be ignored and overshadowed by skill and luck with the cards rather than being a significant determining factor?

Not complaining or arguing, I'm just curious where the counterbalance is intended to be. I'm completely new to L5R, so analyzing the relative power of the stronghold abilities is a bit difficult for me, but I suspect that is the intended balance point.

And on a related question, the +7 fate is clearly intended to be a modular number that could change for future strongholds. How big is a single shift up or down in the +fate stat? What would it mean for a stronghold's other stats? Are we talking about reducing to 0 influence to account for a +8 fate/round? Even more? Or perhaps no stronghold ability?

Just trying to get a grip on stronghold strengths. Thanks for your answers!

Sorry to bump, but since this fell off the front two pages while it was still hidden:

Are these just thematic differences in strongholds? I've seen some players take pride in having lower stats on the Unicorn stronghold despite having a disadvantage from it. Strength in the face of adversity it would seem, so I guess players don't really mind the discrepancies?

Movement is a very good ability, maybe the best at this point. There is very little that stops movement, while stat bonuses can be changed rather easily. The honor steal from the Scorpion also has no real direct counter so they too suffer a penalty to stronghold strength and starting honor.

After testing quite a bit and now playing with the various strongholds, they seem fairly balanced to me.

The Scorpion SH being +1PS is probably more to do with Scorpion's focus on Dishonour and Poison than the power level of the Stronghold itself. Scorpion are really the only Clan that focuses on reducing enemy stats, and +2PS for them is relatively stronger than it is for the other Clans.

I would say the Stronghold ability comes into play for the balancing of their relative stats not to mention thematic themes of the clans as well. Their may be more strongholds release for each of the clans later on in the games life as well, hopefully following suit to a specific theme.

Ok. Seems like I'm hearing that the various stronghold abilities and context within the clans puts them on about the same level, despite statistical differences. That answers my question, then. Thanks!

Kisada has 0 Glory. It prevents him from gaining a bonus from being honored - but also prevents him from being penalized from dishonor. As the Crab do not include the theme of self-honoring, and specifically want to spite the dishonor game this is good for Kisada.

I bring this up because the Scorpion ability on the stronghold, as well as another of their cards requires the player have lower honor than their opponent. I have taken Adept of Shadows back to my hand just to drop my honor. Having low honor is risky, but it can also be advantageous depending on the board state.

I appreciate the break down of power comparisons, but as with Glory, family honor is not necessarily good when high and bad when low. As more cards come out, there may be access to good low-honor requiring cards for everyone.

33 minutes ago, shosuko said:

Having low honor is risky, but it can also be advantageous depending on the board state.

..........family honor is not necessarily good when high and bad when low.

Spoken like a true Scorpion. I bet you have some beachfront property for sale just south of the wall too.

Relative starting honor is likely determined by lore of the setting. Lion, Crane, and Phoenix are traditionally more honorable than the others so they should be at the top. Dragon being equal to Crane and Phoenix is odd but not entirely unwarranted, while Scorpion not being the absolute lowest is a bit odd too but it would just let them use their stronghold to steal honor from other Clans right away. If the honor scale were greater then I'm sure we'd see more variation in starting honor. I don't get why Unicorn only gets +0PS as their stronghold is good but not so good that it needs a horrendous drawback like that. My hope is that it was misguided intent to represent the Clan with nomadic tendencies in its past by having weaker permanent structures.

6 minutes ago, BCumming said:

I don't get why Unicorn only gets +0PS as their stronghold is good but not so good that it needs a horrendous drawback like that. My hope is that it was misguided intent to represent the Clan with nomadic tendencies in its past by having weaker permanent structures.

That may be part of it, but I think it's more likely due to the aggressive mechanics intended for the Unicorn strategy. Whereas Crab is high defense and low offense, Unicorn seems to be geared more towards high offense, low defense. Thus they have +0PS for their stronghold, no holdings to increase province strength, and their clan province has a self-breaking action to attempt character removal. A happy Unicorn is, I think, one who is beating down the enemy stronghold before their opponent gets a chance to swing at theirs.

8 hours ago, Ishi Tonu said:

Spoken like a true Scorpion. I bet you have some beachfront property for sale just south of the wall too.

Comes with its own SPOOKY attraction! These aren't any props, this is real haunting sir, authentic from the 1st century Iuchiban.

12 hours ago, Zesu Shadaban said:

That may be part of it, but I think it's more likely due to the aggressive mechanics intended for the Unicorn strategy. Whereas Crab is high defense and low offense, Unicorn seems to be geared more towards high offense, low defense. Thus they have +0PS for their stronghold, no holdings to increase province strength, and their clan province has a self-breaking action to attempt character removal. A happy Unicorn is, I think, one who is beating down the enemy stronghold before their opponent gets a chance to swing at theirs.

Totally with you on Unicorn being directed towards aggression and less defense, have to disagree that Crab are low offense / high defense - absolutely high defense but definitely good at aggression as well. I am indeed happy when I'm engaging at my opponent's stronghold before they're coming to mine because it could take me 2-3 tries to break theirs whereas I'm only likely to mount one successful defense of mine (Rally to the Cause, Ancestral Lands, Entrenched Position) before I lose. Considering most Champions can easily solo the Golden Plains in their favorable stat despite a 5PS province, you can see why I'm not keen on 0PS.

9 minutes ago, BCumming said:

Totally with you on Unicorn being directed towards aggression and less defense, have to disagree that Crab are low offense / high defense - absolutely high defense but definitely good at aggression as well. I am indeed happy when I'm engaging at my opponent's stronghold before they're coming to mine because it could take me 2-3 tries to break theirs whereas I'm only likely to mount one successful defense of mine (Rally to the Cause, Ancestral Lands, Entrenched Position) before I lose. Considering most Champions can easily solo the Golden Plains in their favorable stat despite a 5PS province, you can see why I'm not keen on 0PS.

I don't think the 0PS for the Unicorn Stronghold had anything to do with their ability to be aggressive. I've seen them play the 'grind em down' long game just as well as any other clan. I think the ability is just that good that it dictates Unicorn having no additional PS.

Phoenix and Dragon effectively give a +2 bonus on offense or defense to one character. Crane is political only, Lion is military and attacking only, Crab is only on defense. Scorpion and Unicorn are the two that have the potential to do something beyond the baseline and as such the other stats on their stronghold take a hit. That movement ability represents your best cavalry personality being at either an offensive or defensive military conflict.....and that is a much larger effect than any of the other strongholds.

6 minutes ago, Ishi Tonu said:

I think the ability is just that good that it dictates Unicorn having no additional PS.

It's a good ability - I disagree about it being so good that we should be awful at defending ourselves.

16 minutes ago, BCumming said:

It's a good ability - I disagree about it being so good that we should be awful at defending ourselves.

But unicorn is not aweful on defense........at least not on military defense.

I think Scorpion's stronghold has weak stats because the ability is so amazing. It's protection from dishonor + potential card advantage and active dishonor of your opponent. That's better than a generic +2 ability that most strongholds offer.

The Lion Stronghold has a weaker ability because it can only be used for 1 of the 4 conflicts per round (your military attack), so they gave it an additional honor.

The Unicorn stronghold is just garbage and I think the balance team just overestimated the value of move in.

As for the fate production question, I think a +8 or +9 fate stronghold would either have to be otherwise blank and have poor honor/influence/province strength or it would have to have some sort of major downside to make up for the efficiency of it. As it stands now, people almost always want to go second for 8 fate on just the first turn. The thought of having that extra fate every turn would require a massive downgrade in the stronghold's other values, in my opinion.

28 minutes ago, BCumming said:

It's a good ability - I disagree about it being so good that we should be awful at defending ourselves.

I think the problem is only that there is too much synergy. Unicorn have many movement effects, but not enough stat effects. As new cards are released that give a bit more power I think Unicorn players are going to love the sh