I think this thread, and threads like it, are largely distracting from an otherwise good thing.

20 minutes ago, FunTimeTeddy said:

I think this thread, and threads like it, are largely distracting from an otherwise good thing.

Which good thing is that?

10 minutes ago, McDermott said:

Which good thing is that?

Well, there's everything else that came in the announcement. The focus of the thread so far has been on the replacement chant for FFG run events. Or is everyone just that "meh" about the rest of the article/ linked pages?

Just now, Zesu Shadaban said:

Well, there's everything else that came in the announcement. The focus of the thread so far has been on the replacement chant for FFG run events. Or is everyone just that "meh" about the rest of the article/ linked pages?

Pretty much, i mean the returning playerbase is coming from a time where prize support included actual swords and there were 50+ 50-200 person tournaments every summer plus huge origins, gen con, and dragon con tournaments, a subscription service with exclusive promo cards, seasonal in store tournament packs, and swag well beyond full bleeds and a lanyard.

Now i get that this isn't how it is and that FFG isn't going to go overboard the way AEG did But for a significant chunk of the playerbase this is "We're keeping like 75% of what you had prior" not some hot new unprecedented announcement. Its good and cool that they're keeping kotei season and a world championship, but the alteration of a tradition based on the complaints of a really REALLY small segment of the playing population is a bit more controversial and worthy of discussion than "yay they're going to keep doing tournaments". What is there to actually discuss regarding that? If its hot and new for standard FFG lcg's I mean cool, but its pretty standard l5r stuff.

34 minutes ago, McDermott said:

Which good thing is that?

A good game, revitalized, newly launched. Rather than griping about trivialities, I'd prefer to see enthusiasm and gratitude for a game which could have just as easily been discontinued.

9 minutes ago, FunTimeTeddy said:

A good game, revitalized, newly launched. Rather than griping about trivialities, I'd prefer to see enthusiasm and gratitude for a game which could have just as easily been discontinued.

It was discontinued. By FFG.

3 minutes ago, FunTimeTeddy said:

A good game, revitalized, newly launched. Rather than griping about trivialities, I'd prefer to see enthusiasm and gratitude for a game which could have just as easily been discontinued.

To you its a triviality, to a lot of long term players its the astroturfing of a time honored tradition at the complaints of a fraction of a fraction of the playerbase who don't even have the beginnings of a well constructed argument about it. Like i said above...would have been better to just remove it, especially given the replacement and how it sounds being shouted in german (where the game has had a pretty big following in the past)

I'm sorry you feel that way. As a fellow long term player, it is not foremost in my mind, nor is it worthy of so much contention, especially during the launch-week. I can't help but think about new players tuning into see what this game is all about... Of course, everyone is entitled to their own opinion. And I think both sides of the argument have some validity. I'm just happy to have my game back.

It's too bad the thread can't be renamed, since this really has nothing to do with what OP titled it. Guess I should look elsewhere to discuss the actual kotei information, organized play, etc. Would be nice to warn other new players expecting that sort of discussion and finding this ugly mess.

2 minutes ago, Zesu Shadaban said:

It's too bad the thread can't be renamed, since this really has nothing to do with what OP titled it. Guess I should look elsewhere to discuss the actual kotei information, organized play, etc. Would be nice to warn other new players expecting that sort of discussion and finding this ugly mess.

Thats what you get when you make transparent changes to AVOID a potential shitshow. Wouldn't have happened if they'd just dropped the chant entirely.

5 hours ago, McDermott said:

Edit: Also, dude, you're a professional writer, and this forum puts a nice red underline under misspelled words. Don't try to condescend to me with definitions and then misspell the word being defined.

You want to pay my rate? I'll fix the typo.

1 hour ago, McDermott said:

Thats what you get when you make transparent changes to AVOID a potential shitshow. Wouldn't have happened if they'd just dropped the chant entirely.

Of course it would have. Because someone will whine about any change at all.

4 minutes ago, BD Flory said:

You want to pay my rate? I'll fix the typo.

O is nowhere near A on the keyboard friendo, its a misspelling, own it.

4 minutes ago, BD Flory said:

Of course it would have. Because someone will whine about any change at all.

I feel pretty confident no one would have even noticed. In the face of one complaint (from a virulent bigot, that a bunch of white dudes are rushing to defend in a peacock display of "wokeness"), a change (to something that sounds like a neo nazi chant in german) is going to be noticed.

4 hours ago, Yoritomo Reiu said:

I guess the key difference to me would be that whereas there's no question that the use of the term ***** is derogatory, I don't accept the premise that the use of the word banzai in this context is considered hurtful by most Asian-Americans.

This is exactly the point of an analogy. You can examine an issue by framing it in a different context.

Although here, the comparison is less about universal acceptance, than it is about the offending party (speaking broadly and historically; no one here invaded China) trying to dictate when the offended party (again, broadly and historically) is allowed to be offended. White people don't get to decide when it's okay for African-Americans to be offended about terms rooted in oppression and slavery. Japanese people don't get to decide when it's okay for Chinese people to be offended by references to anything that happened during the Japanese invasion of China.

And frankly, it doesn't matter whether it's considered hurtful to "most" Asian-Americans. Because Asian-Americans include many cultures, and what is offensive to a Chinese person may or may not be offensive to a Japanese person (or even another Chinese person) and vice versa. That doesn't make either one of them wrong.

We can absolutely have a discussion whether Mr. Wong's views are representative, and of whom. Or whether it even matters. It's easy to fall into the trap of assuming that one person is representative (of any perspective), which is itself more than a little racist.

3 minutes ago, McDermott said:

O is nowhere near A on the keyboard friendo, its a misspelling, own it.

Typos happen for lots of reasons that have nothing to do with proximity.

What are you, five?

8 minutes ago, McDermott said:

I feel pretty confident no one would have even noticed. In the face of one complaint (from a virulent bigot, that a bunch of white dudes are rushing to defend in a peacock display of "wokeness"), a change (to something that sounds like a neo nazi chant in german) is going to be noticed.

You obviously haven't even read the thread you're writing about.

18 minutes ago, BD Flory said:

Typos happen for lots of reasons that have nothing to do with proximity.

What are you, five?

Nope i just have no patience for your particular brand of performative wokeness, nor your "as a professional writer" demeanor. If you're a professional writer, display it in your writing.

17 minutes ago, BD Flory said:

You obviously haven't even read the thread you're writing about.

Actually I have, and the one thing you can count on is that the minute someone expresses offense, people like you will be quick to jump on board, whether there's merit to it or not. Mr Wong has an internet history that is virulently anti-Japanese, and as such his complaints about these things need to be informed by the fact that he's pretty clearly a bigot. After all, it wasn't the Chinese rounded up into internment camps in america 70 years ago. In America, hating on the Japanese is akin to hating on Jewish people (that's how you draw an analogy btw mr Flory).

1 minute ago, McDermott said:

Nope i just have no patience for your particular brand of performative wokeness, nor your "as a professional writer" demeanor. If you're a professional writer, display it in your writing.

Sorry, you don't get to decide the standard to which I proof (or don't) internet forum posts. Like I said, pay my rate, you get a say.

Outside of that, you seem to have a rather unhealthy obsession with me.

1 minute ago, BD Flory said:

Sorry, you don't get to decide the standard to which I proof (or don't) internet forum posts. Like I said, pay my rate, you get a say.

Outside of that, you seem to have a rather unhealthy obsession with me.

Not really, when people make a big deal about what their credentials are I look them up. If I were a professional writer I'd want my internet footprint to display professional writing though.

51 minutes ago, BD Flory said:

Although here, the comparison is less about universal acceptance, than it is about the offending party (speaking broadly and historically; no one here invaded China) trying to dictate when the offended party (again, broadly and historically) is allowed to be offended. White people don't get to decide when it's okay for African-Americans to be offended about terms rooted in oppression and slavery. Japanese people don't get to decide when it's okay for Chinese people to be offended by references to anything that happened during the Japanese invasion of China.

My post was not about judging whether or not Asian-Americans are allowed to be offended by the word banzai. It was about establishing that they actually are offended. This has been taken as a given in most conversations on this topic.

And of course it matters how many people find something to be offensive. We may not get to decide what someone else finds offensive but we do get to decide whether or not to modify our behavior in response. And knowing who is offended and why are important pieces of information to have in making that decision.

9 minutes ago, Yoritomo Reiu said:

And of course it matters how many people find something to be offensive. We may not get to decide what someone else finds offensive but we do get to decide whether or not to modify our behavior in response. And knowing who is offended and why are important pieces of information to have in making that decision.

Sure, but where's the cutoff? 10? 100? 1,000? At what point is it enough to decide to modify our behavior? How many people have to actually speak up at risk of being shouted down for it to count?

Or FFG can just dispense with the thing. Again, recognizing that the official position is that FFG isn't doing it at FFG run events, and have presented an alternative. Which itself may or may not be an issue, I don't know how it'll play in Europe (as described above by other posters). But they read the forums, and I'm sure they don't want to evoke a Nazi rally any more than any reasonable person would. I'm sure they'll look into it, and adjust if they feel the need.

For me, I'd think it's a much more tenuous connection given the chant as a whole specifically invokes a fantasy setting. I can definitely see the concern raised though, especially if the complexion of L5R's European community is primarily white -- specific words can be drowned out. Like I said, above, I'm glad it's not my call to make.

And as I've said in other threads, FFG generally does try to make an effort to address these issues. Good faith counts for a lot.

Somewhere between more than .001% and maybe less than 10% of the playerbase at least.

22 hours ago, LordBlunt said:

I, for one, would find it beyond troubling if I had to chant some version of Seig Heil if I were playing the latest version of 'Kill the Nazi Zombies!!!' in a tournament setting (closest example I could give) as my wife's side of my family would be horrified to hear words like that being uttered from my mouth. Any replies from the greater gaming community telling me to "uhhh, get over it man, it's only a game set in a fictional universe with Nazi-like influences" or "come on, let's get over the past and just enjoy the game, alright? Besides, Nazis were so long ago that who would care NOW?" would not only be tone deaf but downright moronic as an argument to me and the vast, great majority of those players hailing from Eastern European countries and probably from Western European countries too.

New chant -

Rokugan Chant

Leaders: For Honor!
Competitors: Honor!
Leaders: For Glory!
Competitors: Glory!
Leaders: For Rokugan!
Competitors: Rokugan!

Actual Nazi SS motto -

Meine Ehre heißt Treue ("My honour is called loyalty") is themotto of the defunct Nazi organization Schutzstaffel (SS).

At a point you really have to get over it - check this part

Terms related to virtue, such as "honour", "fidelity", "comradeship" or "obedience" were abundantly used by the SS. The word "fidelity", used alone, was often a reference to Hitler personally, as in the pledge of allegiance of the SS:

...better tell the US Marines to quit using Semper Fidelis!! Might offend 6,000,000 Jews!!!

22 hours ago, BD Flory said:

Fifteen year old news articles and threads on the entertainment industry hardly reflect the state of culture today. In particular, notice that the one actual article you cited noted many more obvious issues with the show. The historical note was hardly necessary. And the one Asian person they bothered to quote said, "it wasn't funny," and "needed to be retooled," without going into detail. A retool could easily include changing the title (or it might not have, in Aki Aleong and his organization's mind, I don't know).

On the other hand, people have claimed to be actually offended on this topic, and claimed to be Chinese. If you want to call one a liar, feel free to go to the Shut Up & Sit Down comments section and do so to their "face." I'm sure they're not alone, but I also won't pretend that one person speaks for an entire nation or diaspora.

The name of the show was not the problem. The problem was the bad parody work. As to the SU&SD I'd be GLAD to go comment - oh what's that? The comments section is shut down? How about one of these "I'm offended by banzai" people come here. Even YOU aren't offended by it. YOU just think "someone might be" and so you pull out. Quit cucking over some whiny bs.

22 hours ago, BD Flory said:

It's like we've read a different thread. I'll let Mr. Wong answer himself:

"The fact that you think you can tell me what my feelings are or aren't on a particular matter really say a lot about your lack of good faith here."

He repeatedly expresses that he has some wider concerns with the line (art direction being an early mention), but also that he had no problem with Japanese people or Japanese content, and that (surprise!) context matters.

This is actually the most telling bit that exposes them. "You can't tell me how I think" is basically code for "I don't actually have a reason to think this but..." The fact that he goes after the art too! really exposes it. I've posted several times that the art style is actually pretty in-line with Japanese art styles...

3 hours ago, BD Flory said:

This is exactly the point of an analogy. You can examine an issue by framing it in a different context.

Although here, the comparison is less about universal acceptance, than it is about the offending party (speaking broadly and historically; no one here invaded China) trying to dictate when the offended party (again, broadly and historically) is allowed to be offended. White people don't get to decide when it's okay for African-Americans to be offended about terms rooted in oppression and slavery. Japanese people don't get to decide when it's okay for Chinese people to be offended by references to anything that happened during the Japanese invasion of China.

And frankly, it doesn't matter whether it's considered hurtful to "most" Asian-Americans. Because Asian-Americans include many cultures, and what is offensive to a Chinese person may or may not be offensive to a Japanese person (or even another Chinese person) and vice versa. That doesn't make either one of them wrong.

We can absolutely have a discussion whether Mr. Wong's views are representative, and of whom. Or whether it even matters. It's easy to fall into the trap of assuming that one person is representative (of any perspective), which is itself more than a little racist.

There is a horribly line of "logic" social BS people like to follow that says something alone the lines of "You can't tell me how I feel." Then they try to lead this to "therefore you must recognize and respect how I feel."

The first part is right! I can't tell you that you aren't offended by what I say. The second part is completely wrong. I don't have to respect any contrived offense, I can say "No, you're being petty! Drop it!" because at a point we, as a society must recognize that some group is being absolutely petty, and that they need to drop it - because they aren't being made victims. No Chinese people are being injured by a bunch of people playing a card game and saying a word, even out loud in unison! Even if I wanted to host a game where we chant a Nazi motto as our intro I am fully in my rights to do so, and they are not being injured for it. They can be offended all they want, but there is no grievance.

1 hour ago, BD Flory said:

Sure, but where's the cutoff? 10? 100? 1,000? At what point is it enough to decide to modify our behavior? How many people have to actually speak up at risk of being shouted down for it to count?

Or FFG can just dispense with the thing. Again, recognizing that the official position is that FFG isn't doing it at FFG run events, and have presented an alternative. Which itself may or may not be an issue, I don't know how it'll play in Europe (as described above by other posters). But they read the forums, and I'm sure they don't want to evoke a Nazi rally any more than any reasonable person would. I'm sure they'll look into it, and adjust if they feel the need.

For me, I'd think it's a much more tenuous connection given the chant as a whole specifically invokes a fantasy setting. I can definitely see the concern raised though, especially if the complexion of L5R's European community is primarily white -- specific words can be drowned out. Like I said, above, I'm glad it's not my call to make.

And as I've said in other threads, FFG generally does try to make an effort to address these issues. Good faith counts for a lot.

The cut off is no where. It doesn't matter how many people are offended. What matters is only if there is some actual problem arising from it. Every black person can be offended by a white guy in dreads. That doesn't mean the white guy can't wear dreads. A white guy wearing dreads doesn't hurt a black person in any way. When the black people mob the white person and harass him into changing his appearance because of their petty feelings that IS a problem.

1 hour ago, shosuko said:

New chant -

Rokugan Chant

Leaders: For Honor!
Competitors: Honor!
Leaders: For Glory!
Competitors: Glory!
Leaders: For Rokugan!
Competitors: Rokugan!

Actual Nazi SS motto -

Meine Ehre heißt Treue ("My honour is called loyalty") is themotto of the defunct Nazi organization Schutzstaffel (SS).

I know this is going to come as a shock, but arranging words in a different order and context actually gives them different meaning. I don't live in Europe, though, so as I said, it's not up to me to tell people it's not a problem, because I don't have that context. Just like it's not up to me to tell a Chinese person they don't get to have an issue with the Banzai chant. There's that pesky context thing again.

The above chant and the motto you cite have exactly one word in common between them. I'm sure you'll complain that Banzai is also one word, but given that in the historical usage being noted, it's the only word, and the chant repeats that single word as the response in call and response, it's a very different situation.

But again, if there deeper issues I don't see with the Rokugan chant in German, I'm sure someone will bring it up to FFG.

58 minutes ago, shosuko said:

Even if I wanted to host a game where we chant a Nazi motto as our intro I am fully in my rights to do so, and they are not being injured for it.

Yes, you sure are. Go crazy. We're not talking about your right to hold Nazi rallies. We're talking about what FFG has chosen to do at their events, in order to be considerate.

Oh noes! Being considerate gone mad! Whatever shall we do?

58 minutes ago, shosuko said:

The first part is right! I can't tell you that you aren't offended by what I say. The second part is completely wrong. I don't have to respect any contrived offense, I can say "No, you're being petty! Drop it!"

Correct, and anyone else who cares to gets to say, "No, you're being ignorant and racist."

And, well, you're being ignorant and racist. But do be sure not to take any contrived offense!