The old chant gave an instant impression that something.' Japanese like' was going on. FFG control the game so have the 'right' to remove the chant but I doubt the new chant will catch on so I suspect silence or a weak response or the odd person shouting banzai.

If they had to change the chant then why not UTZ HANTEI - bears similarities in sound so the odd person shouting BANZAI would get drowned out. Saying that there would be problems when another Imperial Line took over...

As an aside the SS motto was 'my honour is called Loyalty' so doesn't bear much resemblence to the new chant beyond massed shouts in german of honour so anyone attempting that connection is making a slight jump.

1 hour ago, LordBlunt said:

Equating 'Who Us?!' (oohhrahhh) that was (to my knowledge) used by American forces during WWII (such as US Army Rangers, as they were constantly given what seemed to be suicidal missions, one after another, without being afforded any form of rest, etc.) with Hip Hip Hooray and Banzai is really,... I can't type the words that will properly explain my understanding here....

Is it because the US military has never committed atrocities during conflicts at all? As a Latin American living in Latin America I wouldv really like to know.

1 hour ago, LordBlunt said:

Tonbo Karasu, I have followed your postings and threads with L5R for a very long time. I've enjoyed your objective and subjective take on all topics related to this game and its gaming world. You have always given sound reasoning, believable understanding concerning the interaction of characters and plots in Rokugan, and have always come across as a sage (lack of a better descriptor) regarding L5R in its previous iteration and now with FFG's version. I mean this with all sincerity..... Now, with your post above that I've quoted, I don't know if you are being coy or sincere in your beliefs concerning this topic.

I dare say that the post that you made (the one I quoted in this post) is the dumbest thing that I have read which has emanated from your handle.

If somehow anyone, least of someone of your poise and stature in my belief, actually equates a 'Hip Hip Hooray!' with 'Banzai! in the world (and most certainly in the US or some Western country), then that person is intellectually bereft of historical events, general knowledge regarding national and personal views of a good portion of the Asian and Pacific peoples, and (imo) just plain ignorant of views held by others who aren't Western.

Equating 'Who Us?!' (oohhrahhh) that was (to my knowledge) used by American forces during WWII (such as US Army Rangers, as they were constantly given what seemed to be suicidal missions, one after another, without being afforded any form of rest, etc.) with Hip Hip Hooray and Banzai is really,... I can't type the words that will properly explain my understanding here....

Point taken, and post amened.

But I stand by the point that Banzai is not solely a warcry and I hadn't heard of any problems with it over the past couple of decades.

25 minutes ago, Tonbo Karasu said:

Point taken, and post amened.

But I stand by the point that Banzai is not solely a warcry and I hadn't heard of any problems with it over the past couple of decades.

I totally understand your reasoning here. I do.

Let me add the following personal insights which should better reflect where 'I'm coming from'.

I joined the US military and after taking the ASVAB and being asked "what do you want to do with us" by the recruiter, I elected to be in armor. However, since I'm color blind (green and red), I was offered an anti-armor position (TOW gunner, 24-Hotel I believe was the MOS, but I could be wrong as it was over 20 years ago now) and I passed my gunnery qualifiers and accepted/remained in the platoon (HQ Comp, AT Platoon).....

...during boot camp and into my first posting, from Company commanders, to Platoon Lieutenants, to Drill Seargents (basic to AIT) on down, we were instructed NOT to use deragatory language that would have historical baggage attached to it (which is beyond belief, as the phrase 'Red, Pinko Commie' and 'Kill a Commie for your Mommy' was uttered by the majority of non-coms and a good portion of brass, as well as more deragatory sayings/phrases that were used during our chants when we were doing PT in the morning)....

... There was a certain Major at Brigade that was of Japanese ancestry. He had been serving close to 30 years I believe by then, and he became attached to our Battalion. During my time in HQ, he was the most by-the-book sort, with overly polished boots and twice-ironed BDUs. He also cursed better and more often than most of the personnel in Commo Platoon. However, when discussing military history with the attached NCOs at HQ, and the topic of Japanese military action in the Pacific came up, he did make it fully clear that certain terms used and popularized during the war, and sometimes lionized by others without knowing the historical background was "inappropriate and demeaning" for verbal usage by the US military. The word Banzai, yes - 'Banzai!' uttered by us, was one word he wouldn't tolerate..... this coming from a man who had more deragatory sayings about women in the military, snide remarks and cut downs of National Guard personnel (who were referred to as "No Go's!" by Reg Army personnel) and never missed to call any enlisted by the term applied to describe the female genitalia, and much more. Yup, same guy....

I wonder: why did this Major find it so offensive to use the term Banzai when he threw around more expletives than the average enlisted personnel???

Thus, I find it laughable reading "do you know if anyone who would find Banzai demeaning to use? Well, I don't."

Well, I did.

Personal history lesson over.

10 hours ago, BD Flory said:

I'm sorry you don't see the difference, but this complaint is analagous to white people complaining they can't call african-americans negroes anymore, or worse, because it's what they've always called them.

Its not analogous to this AT ALL. This is a stupid comparison. Hyperbolic in the extreme and an example of why you have around a 50% support ratio for your posts. Yknow, since we're using post count as a metric might as well use likes as a metric too.

Also, congrats Lord Blunt, you found a hypocrite. I'm not sure when it became virtuous to avoid offending hypocrites with their own hypocrisy but here we are.

Edit: on top of which doesn't that really back up my earlier point where the louder and more intolerant of certain kinds of offense people get the more skeletons they have in their closet regarding that behavior?

Lord Blunt, I can understand your position, and to a certain extent your Major's position, but the first question that springs to my mind is "Why should a card game about magic samurai be judged by the same standards as the US Military, and why should this judgement be extended beyond the US?"

Just now, Tonbo Karasu said:

Lord Blunt, I can understand your position, and to a certain extent your Major's position, but the first question that springs to my mind is "Why should a card game about magic samurai be judged by the same standards as the US Military, and why should this judgement be extended beyond the US?"

I'm not stating that a card game about magic samurai be judged by the standards of the US military. What I was trying to make as an example was to give an actual, personal historical experience and apply that to this continuing - "we want to chant Banzai! at the beginning of our tournaments and every one else should too! It's not inflammatory or deragatory towards anyone. My friends are ok with it, and no one I know cares, so what's the problem?... and now FFG pulled the rug out from underneath us by changing the chant, but I need to chant Banzai!!! It really gets me into the mood to play this game".

At the very least, there continues to be peoples in certain parts of the world who have raw feelings/attitudes/beliefs regarding certain words and phrases. The same can be said of right-wing, often fascist salutes and chants (that we all come across on our TVs on a daily basis at times), and certainly (as I pointed out by my personal example) current and previous generational persons who reside or have roots in Asian and Pacific Islander nations.

While we the gaming public in the states don't have to consider what might offend someone in Nation XYZ since there might currently be no market for your product in that given country, that's not a wise or a holistic undertaking by a corporate entity that sells its product and/or its services worldwide. That Nation XYZ has neighbors, and given international trade and economical reliance with one another, it wouldn't be wise (for instance) to roll out a game that will eventually be active in the Asian markets soon enough that has/had a 'requisite' chant that sounds similar to what a belligerent, war mongeting nation used during a time of war and occupation.....

..... let's see how well the Banzai chant would have gone by in Nanking upon the release of L5R in that market.

I bet it wouldn't be that pretty for FFG and its trade partners.

9 hours ago, LordBlunt said:

I strongly suspect the large Asian market would be offended, especially the Chinese market....in some cases, I would seriously be cautious as to how FFG would/could market a new product (L5R LCG) for the said market that included a chant at the beginning of each play session that had a deep cultural impact toward certain ethnicities whose countries were under Imperial Japanese control during the last world wide war (WWII).... we tend to forget that this product is being shipped and sold all over the world, not just to the US market that by in large is mostly apathetic to the historical concerns of "some people".... there are tens of millions of other card players around the world, not just those who game in the Western world.

I find this to be unlikely, honestly, for a few reasons.

First, the word banzai (萬歲) is used in China in a similar fashion to its use in Japan and is not considered offensive there. There's actually a large plaque next to Mao's portrait in Tienanmen Square which reads "People's Republic of China Banzai". I suspect that a number of aspects of L5R's setting would cause the game problems in China, but I don't think this is one of them.

Second, the Philippines, one of the countries that suffered the most under the Japanese, was also one of the countries where the L5R CCG was most popular.

Does FFG even release in the Far East? And any game involving Japanese influences would probably do badly where Japanese atrocities still rankle enough that 'Banzai' would upset....

Another point that I guess should be mentioned is that there's no reason for Asians to have negative associations with the term banzai because banzai charges weren't used against them. They were a late-war suicidal measure used against the Allies, which is why they're present in our movies and books. No one was shouting "Banzai!" and charging civilians in Nanjing.

17 minutes ago, Matrim said:

Does FFG even release in the Far East? And any game involving Japanese influences would probably do badly where Japanese atrocities still rankle enough that 'Banzai' would upset....

I know the old game was popular in the Phillipines (and I think they did the Banzai-shout there, but I'm not 100% sure), but I think that was the only place where it was played in that region?

I believe it was played in Japan, Hong Kong and possibly Singapore too, but I admit to not having sources to hand to back it up.

I have no idea whether Kotei-scale events were run outside of the Philippines, though.

5 minutes ago, dysartes said:

I believe it was played in Japan, Hong Kong and possibly Singapore too, but I admit to not having sources to hand to back it up.

I have no idea whether Kotei-scale events were run outside of the Philippines, though.

It wasn't played in Japan (outside of maybe some foreigners bringing their cards with them).

I don't think it was really terribly popular in east asia outside the philippines, that may have more to do with "historical fiction" tending to be more interesting to people outside that culture than inside it.

I know this is off topic(on topic?), but i for one am genuinely very excited for the large scale events in Cork and Birmingham. The L5R honoured event(where we chanted like savages to the enjoyment of everyone) was literally the best run event I've sat down in during 15 years of this kind of thing. This pappery aside, I'm looking extremely forward to the events.

And finding out what the Seals do.

3 minutes ago, McDermott said:

I don't think it was really terribly popular in east asia outside the philippines, that may have more to do with "historical fiction" tending to be more interesting to people outside that culture than inside it.

I don't think that's really true? China and South Korea have tons of historical fiction that takes place in their countries. It seems more likely to me that the fact that the game was only available in English (and Spanish and French, I guess) meant that its only potential markets in East Asia were the Philippines and Singapore.

There was apparently some thought of localizing the game into Japanese back during the Clan Wars, but apparently the Japanese companies that AEG spoke with found the art, etc., to be too ridiculous to consider.

20 hours ago, BittersweetCocoa said:

As a Japanese descendant born in America. I am highly disappointed by this choice. This was a chance to spread the proper knowledge of my ancestor's history. I was excited to return to L5R and share my feelings of my heritage with new faces.

Yes, uninformed people may feel uncomfortable about something, until they are edjucated and learn the truth. Regardless feeling uncomfortable is a fact of life.

With this information I WILL not be buying L5R and will be boycotting all other FFG products including X-Wing and Legions. As much as it saddens me to not purchase or play those games I will not stand by a portion of my heritage getting swept under the rug, because it is misunderstood.

In closing to the Samurai of Rokugan.

UTZ!

Banzai!

Man, talk about going the other way

21 hours ago, BittersweetCocoa said:

In closing to the Samurai of Rokugan.

UTZ!

(Missed this the first time I read the thread)

Banzai!

4 hours ago, McDermott said:

Its not analogous to this AT ALL.

Sorry, but your defensiveness is blinding you to what is a very clear analogy:

A member of a group who used the phrase is claiming it is inoffensive, and even traditional, claiming their feelings on their right to use the phrase trump the feelings of someone who objects to the phrase on the grounds that it's hurtful to them.

3 hours ago, Daigotsu Steve said:

I know this is off topic(on topic?), but i for one am genuinely very excited for the large scale events in Cork and Birmingham. The L5R honoured event(where we chanted like savages to the enjoyment of everyone) was literally the best run event I've sat down in during 15 years of this kind of thing. This pappery aside, I'm looking extremely forward to the events.

Agreed. Wish I had more money set aside, my wife and I love Ireland and that Cork event just so happens to fall on her birthday, so convincing HER to go would be easy if money weren't an issue...lol.

Quote

And finding out what the Seals do.

SO MUCH THIS! I need to know the secrets!

If your position is that a chant used by multiple cultures today and that happened to be used in a war, against the allies (including my seabee great grandfather), 70+ years ago is analogous to terminology used by people who held another people in slavery for hundreds of years then continued to use that terminology to denigrate them for a century or more after the fact i question your sense of perspective entirely Flory.

11 minutes ago, McDermott said:

If your position is that a chant used by multiple cultures today and that happened to be used in a war, against the allies (including my seabee great grandfather), 70+ years ago is analogous to terminology used by people who held another people in slavery for hundreds of years then continued to use that terminology to denigrate them for a century or more after the fact i question your sense of perspective entirely Flory.

An analagy is definitionally a partial comparison.

8 minutes ago, BD Flory said:

An analagy is definitionally a partial comparison.

Dude you used a hyperbolic analogy poorly, get over it and stop trying to double down.

Edit: Also, dude, you're a professional writer, and this forum puts a nice red underline under misspelled words. Don't try to condescend to me with definitions and then misspell the word being defined.

4 hours ago, BD Flory said:

Sorry, but your defensiveness is blinding you to what is a very clear analogy:

A member of a group who used the phrase is claiming it is inoffensive, and even traditional, claiming their feelings on their right to use the phrase trump the feelings of someone who objects to the phrase on the grounds that it's hurtful to them.

I guess the key difference to me would be that whereas there's no question that the use of the term ***** is derogatory, I don't accept the premise that the use of the word banzai in this context is considered hurtful by most Asian-Americans.

While the initial comment on SUSD that sparked this conversation was certainly by someone of Chinese descent, I think the comment thread as a whole showed that that particular poster had a virulent hatred of the Japanese and Japanese culture. I don't believe that their views were representative of Asian-Americans as a whole. I haven't been able to find any signs outside of L5R discussions that the word banzai is considered inherently problematic (and I feel I've given it an honest effort).

ETA: I went back and reread the original SUSD post and my description of that poster here isn't fair. I'm still not convinced that that poster's views are representative, however.