Last night I picked up my single Core set and played the Lion vs Crane intro game suggested by the Learn to Play book. My wife and I had a good time and felt no need to buy a second or third core for casual play between us. My slightly elevated play between friends will require a single core per player. (FFG has an excellent single core deck suggestions list: https://images-cdn.fantasyflightgames.com/filer_public/c0/99/c0995a8d-f56b-45e3-801a-054ec7623494/l5r_suggesteddecklists_b.pdf )

I have yet to play this game in a timed environment, but fear that this may not be the best setting for the game. Do I believe, as I play the game, that the average play time will decrease below 2 hours? Absolutely! I'm just not sure this game is truly built to be enjoyed inside of 45 minutes. It feels like chess with cards. Its a game I want to play while drinking a glass of whiskey and conversing with a friend.

The cry for "you must buy 3 cores!" definitely applies to those who want to build 45 card competitive tournament decks now. The casual player will enjoy this game with a single core. But what about "fun"? Is a game forced into a time frame under an hour (or even 50 minutes) fun?

I will say that the "single cor deck suggestions" are actually pretty bad, but should give you a vague feel of the game. Most everyone at GenCon who I talked to and used them rather hated them after the first game.

My friend and I did a demo, and actually a second core made the decks a lot more fun and interesting to play, building 4 30 card decks out of 2 cores. If you get a little bored with just one core, I really recommend 2, even for just you and your wife. You can then at least fill out a deck with mostly in clan cards, making it feel like you are playing your clan, rather than just playing mostly neutral cards with a few clan splashed in there.

I think experienced players won't have too much trouble finishing a game within a 50 minute time frame, unless their decks are intentionally slow or stall-y, and I feel like if they are participating in a tournament, they know to expect this and are perfectly fine with it. It really depends on what you find fun, and I think your concerns are valid and you might not want to play in a tournament. It definitely is more fun if you don't go to time.

Casual and competitive play each have their value. I'll be enjoying playing mostly casually, and there's also a different type of enjoyment that comes from playing competitively. Though you can't reasonably hold a 300-700 person tournament by making the game exceed 50 minutes.

22 minutes ago, Mirith said:

I think experienced players won't have too much trouble finishing a game within a 50 minute time frame, unless their decks are intentionally slow or stall-y, and I feel like if they are participating in a tournament, they know to expect this and are perfectly fine with it. It really depends on what you find fun, and I think your concerns are valid and you might not want to play in a tournament. It definitely is more fun if you don't go to time.

And I think this is my main concern for timed games. As a Destiny player I can tell you that agro decks rule because of the time limit. I think a slow play deck is even more of a valid and enjoyable style in L5R.

4 minutes ago, LuceLineGames said:

Casual and competitive play each have their value. I'll be enjoying playing mostly casually, and there's also a different type of enjoyment that comes from playing competitively. Though you can't reasonably hold a 300-700 person tournament by making the game exceed 50 minutes.

No doubt! I play some games competitively (like Destiny) and others I (personal preference here) find more enjoyable in a relaxed, casual environment. My main question I'm phrasing here is; can all styles of play (winning by breaking the Strong hold, gaining 25+ honor, or opponent's honor dropping to zero) actually be accomplished (and still be "fun") inside of 50 minutes?

To respond to the person who saw this question as some kind of attack... no, my definition of "fun" is not the only one that matters. FFG has established a game with three ways to win. Those should all be valid, and equal, inside a good tournament structure because different play styles will gravitate to different win mechanics. I personally am looking forward to building decks that look to primarily win through honor.

Once you have a feel for the game mechanics, if you are playing casually, you are not bound to any deck building restrictions, other than the ones you make for yourself.

Agreed. Play how you want. It's your money and your game, do as you please.

Play the game how you want. They're your cards now.

As long as you're aware your interpretation is just yours, everything else is inconsequential.

I played casually from Celestial. I don't think the game was ever tuned super well for a competitive environment. I always felt it had a much stronger narrative feel which tends to get in the way of super clean and tight gameplay. I was a long time mtg player and still dabble, but L5R became my favorite because most of the time you could describe what was happening and it made sense. It's less abstract than most other card games, it feels a bit more like a strategy game. Less trick taking and combos, more about timing and location. It's a dramatic game, at least the CCG was. Drama is generally bad for competition/competitors, but good for observers. Rambling at this point.

11 minutes ago, Stone37 said:

No doubt! I play some games competitively (like Destiny) and others I (personal preference here) find more enjoyable in a relaxed, casual environment. My main question I'm phrasing here is; can all styles of play (winning by breaking the Strong hold, gaining 25+ honor, or opponent's honor dropping to zero) actually be accomplished (and still be "fun") inside of 50 minutes?

At the Kiku Matsuri, most games went to time, though that was first-time play with pre-constructed decks. I think we'll see each style of play be able to be completed within 50 minutes, though it won't eliminate games going to time. Games under 50 minutes will be 'intense', which can be fun in its own way?

I do think this game takes longer on average, and I do understand your point. But I'm willing to bet that the players at Worlds will still find it fun

I've played so many editions of the game that I can barely remember how to tell them apart. A lot of games go to time on honor/dishonor. Military is usually the quicker route and I've seen games end by turn 4 a lot of time in past editions. One more cards are released and there are more deck variations, I think it will end up going to time a lot less than we are currently.

With just the core set, winning by breaking the stronghold, or opponent's honor dropping to zero are legitimate ways to win, especially if someone likes to press their luck on the draw. Has anyone even won yet by getting to 25 honor?

8 minutes ago, LuceLineGames said:

Has anyone even won yet by getting to 25 honor?

And inside of 50 minutes? I realize that the Learn to Play book states the beginners should concentrate on breaking the stronghold. I'm hoping new sets of cards will ease my concerns about honor focused decks not being viable in timed play.

19 minutes ago, LuceLineGames said:

With just the core set, winning by breaking the stronghold, or opponent's honor dropping to zero are legitimate ways to win, especially if someone likes to press their luck on the draw. Has anyone even won yet by getting to 25 honor?

I have not heard of it in any of the competitive environments, which I think at this point is the just the Discord League. I had heard of Lion Honor decks being reasonably successful, but that might have been before we knew the whole card pool.

Not sure if you're familiar with L5R before this specific LCG set but there are many things missing from every clan.

For example if you play Crane there is a significant lack of duelists and dueling strategies in the core set. Or if you played primarily Dragon monks... Is there more than maybe a single kiho to work with??

As for honor specifically, if Crane can't win by putting on some Noh performances and writing poetry then it really isn't L5R.

Just now, Tebbo said:

Not sure if you're familiar with L5R before this specific LCG set but there are many things missing from every clan.

For example if you play Crane there is a significant lack of duelists and dueling strategies in the core set. Or if you played primarily Dragon monks... Is there more than maybe a single kiho to work with??

As for honor specifically, if Crane can't win by putting on some Noh performances and writing poetry then it really isn't L5R.

Comparing old L5R and New L5R is a bit of a rhetorical trap. While they feel similar they are very different games with very different mechanics and card pools. Most of the classic effects/themes exist in some form, and yes, there aren't many cards yet, but saying "Crane doesn't work without honor" is unfair to the new game. Political Battles were NOT a thing in old L5R, and is hugely important in new L5R, and Crane win them using their artisans and courtier. Their Powerhouses for this are a storyteller and a lady playing with dolls (figurines?) for children. So just because it isn't gaining them honor, doesn't mean that thematically they aren't being used correctly, just differently than what you expect out of old L5R.

10 minutes ago, Mirith said:

Comparing old L5R and New L5R is a bit of a rhetorical trap. While they feel similar they are very different games with very different mechanics and card pools. Most of the classic effects/themes exist in some form, and yes, there aren't many cards yet, but saying "Crane doesn't work without honor" is unfair to the new game. Political Battles were NOT a thing in old L5R, and is hugely important in new L5R, and Crane win them using their artisans and courtier. Their Powerhouses for this are a storyteller and a lady playing with dolls (figurines?) for children. So just because it isn't gaining them honor, doesn't mean that thematically they aren't being used correctly, just differently than what you expect out of old L5R.

I get what you're saying and agree more or less.

But if honor victory is possible and it's not something Crane can achieve, that's a bit stupid imo. Out of all the more honorable clans they are the most inclined to things outside martial/spiritual/political pursuits. It gets into how hard you need to work to make something make sense. Political battles make sense for many things, but not all.

So while yes it does require thinking about it differently, it's not a nice fit in all cases.

Just now, Tebbo said:

I get what you're saying and agree more or less.

But if honor victory is possible and it's not something Crane can achieve, that's a bit stupid imo. Out of all the more honorable clans they are the most inclined to things outside martial/spiritual/political pursuits. It get's into how hard you need to work to make something make sense. Political battles make sense for many things, but not all.

So while yes it does require thinking about it differently, it's not a nice fit in all cases.

Honor victories are not really currently achievable through typical means. Lion is just closest at the moment (which is fair, they too are about honor).

The political conflicts, to me, are the clans leveraging their skills outside of martial pursuits to win their case in the Courts. Crane have traditionally been the ones to use their artistic skills to increase their power in courts, either by giving them as gifts to credit debts of honor, or using a well written poem to discredit their enemies. This, I think, is well reflected in their card pool. This was also the case in old L5R, and while they may not have been that fun to play, these schools (Kakita Artisan, Kakita Jester) existed for the Crane Clan in the RPG.

To be fair, honor as a win condition has always been less viable in a first set environment. Honor/dishonor has always required as strong amount of action card support and in the beginning it’s just not going to be there.

I could be wrong here as this is just an observation but, it looks to me like FFG isn’t going to design a sit back and honor/dishonor deck strategy. I think they are going to tie in honor dishonor victories via defending/attacking conflicts. So the build the core set of cards to play in those conflicts very well and then add the tools in along the way to set up for more diverse win options.

As someone who has played in a decent amount of competitive L5R I can say that at least for me, knowing that a game is going closer to time I would start making more risky choices which was fun in its own way.

On 10/6/2017 at 0:27 PM, Mirith said:

My friend and I did a demo, and actually a second core made the decks a lot more fun and interesting to play, building 4 30 card decks out of 2 cores. If you get a little bored with just one core, I really recommend 2, even for just you and your wife. You can then at least fill out a deck with mostly in clan cards, making it feel like you are playing your clan, rather than just playing mostly neutral cards with a few clan splashed in there.

Any resources or decklists made so far using two cores? I'm considering getting another core based on this comment. Thanks.

On 10/7/2017 at 2:53 PM, jrvk777 said:

Any resources or decklists made so far using two cores? I'm considering getting another core based on this comment. Thanks.

All I did was take all of the clan cards (Except for duels out of Crane and dragon from a suggestion from my friend), and splashed in a few neutrals that felt appropriate for each clan. I gave one Assassinate, Ornate Fan, Fine Katana, and Court Games to each deck, and just filled out the rest with whatever seemed appropriate. Since we wanted to keep it simple, we didn't splash any clans. We only built out Crab, Crane, Dragon and Lion for simplicity as well. Phoenix and Scorpion felt too complicated to teach with, and Unicorn feels very weak in the limited environment, as well as being a little too focused on Military for a good teaching game.

The Dynasty decks basically build themselves, and the conflict decks, you can fill out with stuff like cloud the Mind, outwit, rout, and for shame reasonably easily in their appropriate decks.

1 hour ago, Mirith said:

All I did was take all of the clan cards (Except for duels out of Crane and dragon from a suggestion from my friend), and splashed in a few neutrals that felt appropriate for each clan. I gave one Assassinate, Ornate Fan, Fine Katana, and Court Games to each deck, and just filled out the rest with whatever seemed appropriate. Since we wanted to keep it simple, we didn't splash any clans. We only built out Crab, Crane, Dragon and Lion for simplicity as well. Phoenix and Scorpion felt too complicated to teach with, and Unicorn feels very weak in the limited environment, as well as being a little too focused on Military for a good teaching game.

The Dynasty decks basically build themselves, and the conflict decks, you can fill out with stuff like cloud the Mind, outwit, rout, and for shame reasonably easily in their appropriate decks.

Thanks very much... I'm interested in building a Scorpy & Unipony deck as well just to learn how they play against the other clans... haven't really chosen a Clan yet (new player) so I'll have to see which clan suits my playstyle... cheers.

12 hours ago, jrvk777 said:

... haven't really chosen a Clan yet (new player) so I'll have to see which clan suits my playstyle...

If you want to be the "bad" guy who's actually the good guy, play Scorpion. If you want to be the "good" guy who's actually the bad guy, play Crane.