I've been playing through KOTOR again after many years. One thing that I've noticed is that the Dark Side has all the nuance of a Khorne Berzerker. You're pretty much give Choice A: Do a goodly act for somebody else Choice B: Do nothing and walk away Choice C: Stab everybody in close proximity then see if you can find any kittens to drown . Similarly, the Dark Forces series usually takes the route of strangling innocent bystanders and shooting droids rather than seeking personal gain or playing two opponents against each other. And The Force Unleashed seems to have just treated the Dark Side as Force steroids with the anger just a byproduct of all the UNLIMITED POWAH and you were just a normal guy otherwise.

Was there ever a Star Wars game that not only understood the insidious nature of the Dark Side, but also that it influenced people in many different ways besides 'raging meth addict'?

I don't know that I've found one, but then again, I don't usually go for Dark Side anyway.

I do like the Light/Dark Side options in Old Republic, though. If you're playing Republic, you'll get options like "(LS) Pay the family's medical expenses out of your own pocket," and "(DS) Tell them you expect to be well compensated for saving them." If you're playing Empire, though, you get more "(LS) Give the random stranger a quick, painless death and promise that you'll spare at least one of his children," and "(DS) Force him to watch as you mind control his family into murdering each other, then clone them so that he can keep watching it happen repeatedly for the rest of his life."

Subtlety does not seem to be the game's strong suit.

I mean if this were the standard for Dark Side users, Palpatine would have been outed right at the start of The Phantom Menace when he started choking various members of Amidala's court to death right before communications cut out. Probably wouldn't have made it that far since his 'shoot lightning at babies' campaign platform probably wouldn't go over well with the Naboo.

I think the RPG crowd tends to call this Stupid Evil, but it's such a blatant thing that it may overlap into Chaotic Stupid.

7 hours ago, flyboymb said:

I mean if this were the standard for Dark Side users, Palpatine would have been outed right at the start of The Phantom Menace when he started choking various members of Amidala's court to death right before communications cut out. Probably wouldn't have made it that far since his 'shoot lightning at babies' campaign platform probably wouldn't go over well with the Naboo.

I think the RPG crowd tends to call this Stupid Evil, but it's such a blatant thing that it may overlap into Chaotic Stupid.

Reminds me of a D&D group I used to play with. We ran several campaigns that were probably Chaotic Neutral at best (technically we were working towards a Good goal, but none of the characters worried about that, and only helped to gain rewards, willingly betraying their employers if the villains offered better rewards). After a few campaigns, a couple of our members said, "I'm tired of all these 'goody-goody' campaigns. Can we play an evil campaign?" The only difference in the evil campaign was that we couldn't even have a conversation with an NPC without someone attacking them.

I suppose it was probably fun for some of them, but I wasn't really a fan.

TIE Fighter did the Darkside right. You rose in the ranks of the Emperors Secret Order the more you spied for him and outted traitors. It was a subtle seduction. The player himself would end up cheering on Vader, Thrawn and the Empire and would eventually rescue the Emperor from being held hostage by Rogue imperials.

the best SW game ever.

1 hour ago, GrimmyV said:

TIE Fighter did the Darkside right. You rose in the ranks of the Emperors Secret Order the more you spied for him and outted traitors. It was a subtle seduction. The player himself would end up cheering on Vader, Thrawn and the Empire and would eventually rescue the Emperor from being held hostage by Rogue imperials.

the best SW game ever.

TIE Fighter was pretty groundbreaking storytelling for a video game of it's time, and it did the whole Imperial propaganda thing very well. It wasn't a choice based system however, just a linear narrative (although you could bypass the objectives for the Secret Order IIRC).

Other than that you probably have to look outside the Star Wars franchise for examples of morality done right. The few other games where you can play a Dark side affiliated character are pretty cartoonish (looking at you, Force Unleashed).

I quite enjoyed the Paragon/Renegade system in Mass Effect(2). Some very satisfying and funny moments in there.

38 minutes ago, GrimmyV said:

TIE Fighter did the Darkside right. You rose in the ranks of the Emperors Secret Order the more you spied for him and outted traitors. It was a subtle seduction. The player himself would end up cheering on Vader, Thrawn and the Empire and would eventually rescue the Emperor from being held hostage by Rogue imperials.

the best SW game ever.

Agreed. You knew you were playing the Bad Guys, and there were hints of it at times, but pretty much everything you did could at least be justified in a sort of "greater good" kind of way (e.g. the civil war in this system does need to be stopped, and both sides are committing horrible atrocities, so if we have to get a little heavy-handed, that's just the most efficient way to stop the bloodshed).

Though, FTS Gecko is also correct that it's linear storytelling, not RPG choices.

In the original Sims I put 8 people in a room with nothing, not even doors, and none of them had points in any personality traits. They all slapped each other, pissed themselves and were miserable until they all died. It was glorious.

then I had the idea to make 8 kids with the same lack of personality and made them swim in a pool, removing the ladder when they were all in. Much quicker deaths that way. I repeated this several times to build up enough tombstones for a cemetery and mosoleum. And the lot was swarming with ghosts every night.

thats a lot more Darkside than any SW games, I would think. Might also shed some light on my mental health ?

Actually Mass Effect did do things right. Just the right amount of anger with the opportunity to put a bullet through somebody's brain or a fist through a journalist's face if you thought you could get away with it. And you can eventually use your choices to upend galactic governments and the like while coming out smelling like a hero.

Deus Ex was also a bit of a nuanced game. Plenty of opportunities for minutes dickery and multiple ways to influence the big picture for good or evil. You even had your own Obi-Wan in the form of your brother and Sidious in the form of Bob Page.

There's a lot of criticism here towards The Force Unleashed, but no other game let you manipulate the environment or enemies in real time like TFU did. Jedi Outcast and Jedi Academy were great with the ability to slow down time, mind trick, push, pull, and shock opponents, but the opening level of Kashyyyk as Darth Vader was truly intoxicating. Flinging anyone in your way a hundred yards with the flick of your hand... Steadily marching forward, deflecting any blaster fire without effort... That game was one of my favorites last console generation.

I'd kill for a spiritual successor to Jedi Knight and The Force Unleashed that combined the physics manipulation of TFU, the variety of force abilities from JK/JO/JA, and the combat mechanics from Metal Gear Rising by Platinum Games.

I didn't mind the play of the game itself. Actually liked being able to do a lot of the stuff that Starkiller could do. The issue I had with it was his portrayal of the Dark Side. The kid could hide around a corner with his droid buddy and peak at the new girl. Fall in love with said new girl. Turn his back on the Dark Side (which he had been indoctrinated into since he was a child) for that girl.

Compare this to Darth's Vader and Malgus. Vader had gone past his love for Padme into what you could really call an obsession with control. He wanted order in the galaxy, he wanted to control life and death, and he wanted his wife to accept his new lifestyle with a smile. The simplest hint of betrayal though was enough to get her a good chokening leaving her injured enough to still be down after the longwinded duel.

Malgus was very much attached to his lover, and realized that she would be a weakness for him after she was nearly killed in retribution for the attack on the Jedi Temple. He admitted his feelings to her and, though it caused him pain to do so, killed her so that nobody could ever use her against him again. He chose power over love.

These are the kinds of things that make the Dark Side a much more seductive thing and less of a mustache-twirling 'mwahaha I'm soooo evil' trait. The ease with which power comes to you comes at the price of your health (generally) and the wellbeing of those you care about. Inevitably you must choose between maintaining these things or grabbing even more power. Since you've already bitten into the fruit the choice is almost automatic.

It's the only draw that could cause an old man to have a Palpgasm right after he'd deep fried himself with his own lightning.

Hearts of Iron: "Should I maintain world peace or should I... well I have build all these panzer-divisions so..."

On 10/6/2017 at 9:45 AM, GrimmyV said:

In the original Sims I put 8 people in a room with nothing, not even doors, and none of them had points in any personality traits. They all slapped each other, pissed themselves and were miserable until they all died. It was glorious.

then I had the idea to make 8 kids with the same lack of personality and made them swim in a pool, removing the ladder when they were all in. Much quicker deaths that way. I repeated this several times to build up enough tombstones for a cemetery and mosoleum. And the lot was swarming with ghosts every night.

thats a lot more Darkside than any SW games, I would think. Might also shed some light on my mental health ?

I remember spending hours in Roller Coaster Tycoon building coasters that would have tracks that had no end either launching riders into the air or right into water. Killed a lot of guests that way.

Force Unleashed: Stop an ISD in midair. Most badass force-using ever. Even though it's:

UNLIMITED POWAH!!!

On 06/10/2017 at 2:30 PM, JJ48 said:

Reminds me of a D&D group I used to play with. We ran several campaigns that were probably Chaotic Neutral at best (technically we were working towards a Good goal, but none of the characters worried about that, and only helped to gain rewards, willingly betraying their employers if the villains offered better rewards). After a few campaigns, a couple of our members said, "I'm tired of all these 'goody-goody' campaigns. Can we play an evil campaign?" The only difference in the evil campaign was that we couldn't even have a conversation with an NPC without someone attacking them.

Really, you should have seen some of our D&D campaigns. Borderline sociopathic.

1 hour ago, Celestial Lizards said:

Farce Unleashed: Stop an ISD in midair. Most badass force-using ever

Yeah, that game had some...suspect Force use. If The Apprentice/Starkiller/whatever had been that powerful then Kenobi and Yoda would have a huge change in the Force.