Eh, I think, to answer that, you'd first have to define "efficient" in this context.

34 minutes ago, Drasnighta said:

Eh, I think, to answer that, you'd first have to define "efficient" in this context.

Can this fleet win?

Is there another measure I Armada?

Then Yes.

Yes it can.

Because its not counter-productive. And its actually points cheaper (and thus, in that measure, more efficient) than the Long Range choice. The only difference is Tactic of flight.

1 hour ago, Drasnighta said:

Then Yes.

Yes it can.

Because its not counter-productive. And its actually points cheaper (and thus, in that measure, more efficient) than the Long Range choice. The only difference is Tactic of flight.

Yeah, pretty much this. It's just a different way of approaching the list-building. Rather than...

I'm bringing Ackbar -> MC30s sound good -> why would I bring the shorter-range option with TRC instead of the long-range one?

it's more like...

I'm bringing MC30Ts, how do I crank up their damage to 11? -> moar dice from Ackbar -> TRCs to increase that damage output with my evades that I'm not using at close range anyway

Now, I definitely agree that this implementation of the idea isn't ideal: it's kind of trying to do both the long-range and short-range one, to the detriment of both. You're going to get more mileage out of OE+any ordnance than out of GT with this kind of setup.

Note that I don't disagree that they're not particularly lean . They are fun to play though.

Whereas DTTs upgrade the blanks across both the black and red dice. No Ordnance Experts required....

14 minutes ago, Ginkapo said:

Whereas DTTs Have a chance to upgrade the blanks across both the black and red dice. No Ordnance Experts required....

Fixed that for you....

1 minute ago, moodswing5537 said:

Fixed that for you....

Dont tell me the odds

24 minutes ago, Ginkapo said:

Whereas DTTs upgrade the blanks across both the black and red dice. No Ordnance Experts required....

True, it's another viable option if you want to shave off those couple of points. But what else does he need in the weapons slot? He has Home One, so not Sensor Team. Assuming we're still talking MC30T, GT is of limited use.

Yes, DTTs give you an effective reroll on everything, which is worth somewhere around +.7 damage.

TRC is worth about +1.2, but cost more points and an evade and are restricted to the side arcs.

OE+ExR is about +2.75 out the side, only once, but also has the flexibility to be used against squadrons or out the front arc, which you lose with TRC (on the Ackbar MC30T, specifically). After which OE provides a comparable damage increase to DTT (+.75), but only at close.

They all have tradeoffs. DTTs are very flexible but also relatively inefficient. TRC is pretty efficient but arc-restricted. OE+ExR is super efficient and has some flexiblity, but only once and range-limited.

EA+OE+ER?

Sounds pretty sweet with Ackbar MC30T

10 hours ago, Green Knight said:

EA+OE+ER?

Sounds pretty sweet with Ackbar MC30T

No it doesnt. Using OE and ER means you really desire close range shots. So why get EA too?

You have to remember why you have Ackbar in the first place.

In a fleet with ackbar mc80 and 2 mc30t the addition of ea seems a good way to add some long range firepower.

And with mc30s you want some sort of buff for those Home one assisted ackbar star destroyer volleys.

Not bad at least.

4 minutes ago, Green Knight said:

In a fleet with ackbar mc80 and 2 mc30t the addition of ea seems a good way to add some long range firepower.

And with mc30s you want some sort of buff for those Home one assisted ackbar star destroyer volleys.

Not bad at least.

Would you put OE on an ISD I?

Why dont you go for af2b-s with gt-s with this setup? Season It with any turbo laser, and suddenly you End up throwing 7-5 dices in the red range.

50 minutes ago, Ginkapo said:

Would you put OE on an ISD I?

If it could take Ordnance AND have an automatic acc I might

Am I the only one curious how a 3 ship fleet beats an MSU list? The standard 7 ship MC30 fleet, which is one of the best MSU lists out there, will rip these fleets apart.

GT MC30s won't have 2 targets in arc all the time because of their small base, nor will they deal much damage at medium. GT get's more value on larger bases because your arc and range is extended. And thinking you'll have 2 targets in the same side arc at close range is ridiculous, mainly because you want to stay away from the side arc of an MC30 and you don't have the activations to get the ship into position.

I think you're better off running 2 MC80s with flotilla and squad support. An Ackbar shot at long is capable of crippling any small ship except an MC30, and at medium you can pick off Vics. 2 MC80s gives you overlapping arcs.

Or go with the 6 activation doom pickle:

Faction: Rebel Alliance
Points: 393/400

Commander: Admiral Ackbar

Assault Objective: Advanced Gunnery
Defense Objective: Contested Outpost
Navigation Objective: Intel Sweep

[ flagship ] MC80 Assault Cruiser (114 points)
- Admiral Ackbar ( 38 points)
- Defiance ( 5 points)
- Walex Blissex ( 5 points)
- Engine Techs ( 8 points)
- Reinforced Blast Doors ( 5 points)
- Electronic Countermeasures ( 7 points)
- X17 Turbolasers ( 6 points)
- Leading Shots ( 4 points)
= 192 total ship cost

CR90 Corvette A (44 points)
- Jainas Light ( 2 points)
- Intel Officer ( 7 points)
- Turbolaser Reroute Circuits ( 7 points)
= 60 total ship cost

CR90 Corvette A (44 points)
- Intel Officer ( 7 points)
- Turbolaser Reroute Circuits ( 7 points)
= 58 total ship cost

GR-75 Medium Transports (18 points)
- Leia Organa ( 3 points)
- Comms Net ( 2 points)
= 23 total ship cost

GR-75 Medium Transports (18 points)
- Ahsoka Tano ( 2 points)
- Comms Net ( 2 points)
= 22 total ship cost

GR-75 Medium Transports (18 points)
- Repair Crews ( 4 points)
= 22 total ship cost

1 Tycho Celchu ( 16 points)

Now you can match activations. Those CR90s hit much harder than you think, and your dials and tokens allow for instant reaction time on the MC80. The only thing I've seen beat this list is Caldias's MC30 swarm which took 5th at Worlds. I beat it once because I bravely ran away and killed the flotillas...

How does the pickle not die to a B Wing Minefield?

Seriously asking, as that is what I am running at the moment. It seems you are using a bunch of activations to try to protect it, but your AS fire seems limited, and if you hesitate at all with the pickle, you only have 2 vettes as combat ships.

I mean, I find when the opponent is an ISD, their native speed 3 can Jump the B-Wings in the majority... But the Engine Tech-ing 2+1 of the Pickle means it drags them along.

My go to fleet recently is double MC80A, a flotilla, and token squad support. Usually Shara, Tycho, VCX. It rarely has issues with swarms. For the most part, I do my best to provide overlapping fields of fire. I also (as UndeadGuy mentioned) tend to throw shots hard enough to one-shot most small ships or leave them crippled. When I’m killing 1-2 targets on turn 2 and 3 each, and usually not losing a ship until turn 3 at the earliest, activation advantage goes away pretty fast

As much as it can look like a terrible idea, turning an MC80 directly into a swarm has some serious benefits. Ackbar slashing a swarm on a ship balanced to not have gunnery teams gets impressive results. Though you will lose one MC80 faster

I have also flown against my own fleet and taken it apart with a swarm. So I’m pretty certain some of that success is that large ships are my comfort zone and that Ive flown MC80A/C constantly since they came out.

If you run an MC80 and more than 1 other combat ship, the Home One title might be the most punishing card I’ve seen against swarms.

So my take is that Ackbar is just fine against swarms.

4 minutes ago, Drasnighta said:

How does the pickle not die to a B Wing Minefield?

Seriously asking, as that is what I am running at the moment. It seems you are using a bunch of activations to try to protect it, but your AS fire seems limited, and if you hesitate at all with the pickle, you only have 2 vettes as combat ships.

I mean, I find when the opponent is an ISD, their native speed 3 can Jump the B-Wings in the majority... But the Engine Tech-ing 2+1 of the Pickle means it drags them along.

Find a way to shoehorn Toryn Farr in there somewhere. She makes Blue-Blue flak do some impressive damage. Still, my preferred anti Bwing solution is to Snipe the carrier. It is certainly far from a safe bet, but no fleet should be insta-win against every fleet.

16 minutes ago, Drasnighta said:

How does the pickle not die to a B Wing Minefield?

Seriously asking, as that is what I am running at the moment. It seems you are using a bunch of activations to try to protect it, but your AS fire seems limited, and if you hesitate at all with the pickle, you only have 2 vettes as combat ships.

I mean, I find when the opponent is an ISD, their native speed 3 can Jump the B-Wings in the majority... But the Engine Tech-ing 2+1 of the Pickle means it drags them along.

Well this is true for any of the fleets listed, but that's not the purpose of the discussion. How does Ackbar deal with MSU, not how does Ackbar deal with bombers...

I've already shown to my local group how effective bombers can be against MC80s with my Dodonna E's and X's fleet, where I killed 2 MC80s with Norra, Gold, 2 X's, 2 E's, Jan and Biggs. So taking B-Wings, rather than my inefficient E-Wings, would be so much better. I still see the issue of getting the B-Wings to the MC80, especially since the MC80 can just run away and shoot the carriers since it has an effective speed 3 with ET.

Honestly, my biggest problem I run into fighting an Ackbar80 is staying out of the side arc. I can get in front of it to block and take out the supporting ships, but a Nav dial + ET means these things can haul *** and swing that side arc.

I don't generally have a single Carrier. My Assault Pickle and Pelta both pull the duties. The Assault Pickle in the midst where it can't be Sniped... The Pelta back where its Boosting.

Indeed, its no guarantee - but I've been working on dealing with these "Single High Value Target" enemy fleets in my own brainspace somewhat...

3 minutes ago, Undeadguy said:

Well this is true for any of the fleets listed, but that's not the purpose of the discussion. How does Ackbar deal with MSU, not how does Ackbar deal with bombers...

Sorry, I was just curious as a follow on point.

I'll go away now.

15 minutes ago, Drasnighta said:

Sorry, I was just curious as a follow on point.

I'll go away now.

That's the point though. MC80s wilt under bomber fire backed by Norra. The standard Rieekan aces should have no problem dismantling the fleet I posted, but since no one runs "on-meta" in my area, there has never been a game between Ackbar and Rieekan. If my inefficient red die bomber fleet can do it, why can't your more efficient B-Wing bombers do it since they have FCT and AFFM boosting them?

I'm not the author of the list so I can't say how I'd play it against bombers, but the activation padding does help. Leia+Comms Net means you can repair 3 shields per turn if you want. Ahsoka+Comms Net means you can get any token you need to adjust to the board state. CR90s are great at harassing flotillas, and their single blue AA is much more powerful than you think.

I still think the problem is getting a carrier into command range of the squads to attack the MC80. If you use Relay, you're dead. I'd just flak all your squads and never engage your fleet. I've done this before and it's comical. Run my ships in a circle blasting AA out the sides and front killing squads left n right. Since you're using another MC80, I see the advantage of your fleet since you can't 1 shot an MC80. At worst, you have 3 rounds before it goes down, which is likely all the time you need with your own Ackbar80 and B-Wings.

Sorry I dismissed your comment. It seemed like you were throwing a jab at me showing the list has a weakness that somehow means it's not effective against MSU which confused me. B-Wing bombers and MSU are 2 different fleets IMO, so I also expect some miscommunication in general when we use MSU as a term, which also factored into it.

@Undeadguy So you still dont have activation parity or initative. And to make it better you have a tonne of free points on fragile units. Far more than the 120 needed for an 8-2.

How does this help anything? If you cant win the activation fight, then stop fighting it and fight on different terms.

38 minutes ago, Ginkapo said:

@Undeadguy So you still dont have activation parity or initative. And to make it better you have a tonne of free points on fragile units. Far more than the 120 needed for an 8-2.

How does this help anything? If you cant win the activation fight, then stop fighting it and fight on different terms.

I don't understand how 2 MC30s that can attack at medium and an MC80 will beat a MSU fleet. The advantage MSU has is activations, multiple attacks to mitigate defense tokens, and cheap points scattered through the fleet to make it difficult to score against it. If you take you're own MSU style with the MC80, you are negating their activation advantage in the round leading up to engagement. This is extremely important if you are playing second player.

I'd make the argument that the 2 GT MC30s are extremely fragile as well because you have no defense on them. I rather enjoy facing MC30s that don't have MM, RBD, and either title. They pop real fast because you can't control when they activate. You have 3 ships, I have 6.

If you have first player, I only need 2 activations after your first move before I exhaust you of any further activations. This is basic MSU style that you should know. It's only after I have decided to, does the MC30s become a real threat, and if you're fighting against a true MC30 swarm, you're MC30s are ill equipped to do anything. If you're facing a TRC90 swarm, you won't get into range because your threat range is already revealed on the table after you move. If you face a DeMSU, you have to contend with a huge bid and letting Demo triple tap an MC30 or the MC80.

You also have 5 deployments which is not a good place to be against an MSU fleet. I would love for my mixed MSU Vic+Glads fleet to face this MC30+MC80 list because both my Glads would get their optimal deployments against it, and the MC30s will have to content with the Vic n Raiders if they try to get into close range.

If I'm wrong, tell me. How does a 3 activation fleet that is not designed to fight at long range beat an MSU? Are we talking about a different MSU fleet, as in not TRC90s, MC30s, and DeMSU? I agree the ships can deal a lot of damage to kill a ship, but I don't see it happening consistently.

If you fly the MC30s solo or paired, they don't have the protection of the MC80s long range attacks, so the MC30s can be picked off. If you fly formation style, you're not utilizing the more powerful black dice on the MC30s because I will not fly into close range of the MC30. You don't have any activation padding to force me to move into close range either.

I want to stress my problem is with the MC30s, not the MC80. I think you are much better off playing second player with 2 MC80s than 1 MC80 and 2 MC30s.

I realise the title of this thread, but I dont think anyone was really agreeing with the OP that this was a good counter to MSU.

However, you came in really strongly, and produced another list that also cant deal with the 7 activation MC30's. Which I didnt get, as you are failing to do what you are explicitly trying to do, and presenting your argument as if it is fact (my specialty I know). So I had to object.

3 minutes ago, Ginkapo said:

I realise the title of this thread, but I dont think anyone was really agreeing with the OP that this was a good counter to MSU.

However, you came in really strongly, and produced another list that also cant deal with the 7 activation MC30's. Which I didnt get, as you are failing to do what you are explicitly trying to do, and presenting your argument as if it is fact (my specialty I know). So I had to object.

Ha I see the irony of my post thoughts now.