Does anyone find it odd that Guardsman do not get Wrangling while Scum do and yet the IG actually has Calvary units?

As for that matter why don't they get Technical Knock? Seems to my that they would know how to quickly clear a jammed weapon, certainly more inclined for this talent than a Psyker (the only career that can take that).

Don't have the errata with me, but you might want to check that.

Also, if the character in question has a valid reason to purchase the wrangling (or any other) skill due to ingame occurrences, there's always the option of an elite advance.

It's not in the errata, and I realize elite advances are doable, I just don't really care to have it all rely on GM fiat if you know what I mean...

I'm just surprised at some of the oddities in the careers, the guardsman having a few with the two I mention the most glaring of them.

Hmm, not really. It's one of the skills available to feral guardsmen, and If that doesn't cover their actual rough riders then i'd have thought Rough Rider would have been another alt rank. I wouldn't have thought that Guards from a hive or forge world might not ever see a riding animal.

I don't know why scum would need it. Perhaps giant rat baiting or trading exotic pets is part and parcel even in hives and space.

I don't know about Tech knock. I thought it was Tech priest only.

Guardsmen have units of hills?

Netherek said:

Well, I think the "Technical Knock" is just another odditiy, like the weapons talents shooting up in higher ranks of the Adept.

As it comes to "Wrangling" and "Scum vs IG":
By all the weapons skills they get from start (Basic Weapons included) I always assumed that this "Scums" are more about "Bandit" then about "Thief". Since Vehicles are sparse to those neither rich or "government organisations", having "Wrangling makes sense".

In addition, I assume that in this setting their are a pretty number of "security systems" still relying on unmodified guard animals (like dogs or different creatures with similiar function). Thereby, the possibility of "Wrangling" makes sense.

On the other hand, the standard infantrie soldier might not have to much to do with animals once inside the IG. In WWI and II, they (still) used a lot of pack animals. But the IG has the blessing of the Mechanicus and a good supply of Chimera. "Rough Riders" would be a special package / career rank not published to me.

Psychers strangely can take technical knock as well as Tech-priests do. I agree though that its an odd talent in general and would normally agree that it maybe a techpriest thing except for they get Gun Blessing which is a lot stronger talent for unjamming weapons.

As to Wrangling, a feral warrior in my opinion should get more than just wrangling, but at least +10 like the Assassin and Scum if not up to +20. I just find it odd that IG do not get it period when there is plenty of precidence for them to have it over any other class. I don't necessarily think they should have it at high mastery but certainly should have it, especially since the have the lowest selection of skills and talents in the game...

What I have ended up doing in my game is making "elite packages" for the Guardsmen after the player has detailed enough of what their character is all about, where they came from and so on. It is basically a list of skills and talents that make sense to the background as well as some weapons training options (often redundant for Guardsmen, but the packages are intended to be useful to other careers if the background story fits) with suitable XP costs and prerequisites listed. The character is then free to spend XP between their chosen career path and their special package as they see fit.

So far I have put together "Cadian Military Training" and "Frontier World Ork Hunter" packages. There is a possibility I will be making a "Imperial Navy Pilot" package as well, in this case incorporating some slight reallocation of the attribute advance chart (cheaper Agility and Perception, more expensive Strength and Weapon Skill) and focusing a bit more on "voidrider" type skills and talents. If there is enough interest I may post the details of these packages. I do find it somewhat revealing that the only profession that consistently generates requests for more options at rank one is the Guardsman. "So, do you know how to swim, or do you drive?" is not exactly a big distinguishing character trait. The only other notable "rank one tweak" that has come up has been swaping out a starting skill for "Swim" in regards to an Arbitrator from Spectoris and adding +10 and +20 Swim to the career path at low levels.

Besides, I don't think all Imperial Guardsmen are of "Guardsman" class... Like all Guardsman -class people are not IG.

An Attilan or Tallarn desert raider would actually be better represented by Scum -class with "elite package". Their style of combat is, after all, much more about things like living of the land, scrounging, ambushing and other "scumly skills" instead of the straight "I-R-Heavy-Weapons" style of the Guardsman -class.

Polaria said:

Not all Guardsman characters are Imperial Guard, this is true. Some are PDF troopers, some are mercenaries and so on....

I agree with your assessment of the Attilans, but NOT the Tallarn.

Tallarn do indeed practice a very mobile form of "hit and run" warfare, but they do so with cavalry, infantry, mechanized infantry and massed formations of Leman Russ battle tanks. They are also FANATICAL with regards to the Imperial Cult. Commisars tend to love being assigned to a Tallarn unit, as they can largely sit in their tent and read a book. By contrast, other Imperial Guard units are usually uncomfortable near Tallarn forces since it is more or less the Imperial equivalent of sharing a base camp with the Taliban. Their homeworld is a radioactive wasteland desert, so everyone lives in fortified underground cities and venture outside only in desperate moments (since being outside long enough WILL kill you!). Tallarns seem to have a fondness for Autocannons based on the old mineatures.

You might have noticed that many of the more famous Imperial Guard units and nearly all Space Marine Chapters come from exceptionally crappy planets.

Polaria said:

Funny you should put it that way, bold faced for emphasis...

I'm a huge fan of the Guard, and I've never viewed them as such. Besides the career doesn't quite support that view either, even though it makes sense that of all the careers they have the access to those talents. The Scum class doesn't really fit the Rough Rider image, though an alternate career rank would definately be doable for the Guardsman....

@ZillaPrime:

I'd love to see your work for elite packages for careers.

Netherek said:

The only reason I don't bother with this is because I trust my players not to take skills out of context, nor do I believe they see the game as some sort of contest with against the GM and vice-versa.

I was looking through the core book and found stealth gear, I looked theough the rest of the book looking for it.

The Hobo Hunter said:

I have never ran any of my games that way, and hate playing in ones run that way. In a game that has as much down as this one does (travel is quite slow between planets, etc.) there is plenty of opportunity to learn what is on you rank list. It really comes down to who's character it is, and since the player plays that character and has the vested interest in that character, the player should have full control of how that character develops within framework of the rank system.

Now Elite advances, Background packages, and alternate ranks do and should need GM approval as that is a break from the standard framework.

I particularly have had poor experiences with GM fiat, and every time I was in those games I was left with the feeling I was merely there to run the GM's character, not mine...

miss dee said:

Dee,

I've always thought of the stealth gear to be nothing more than some form of camouflaged BDU's or their equivalent. Nothing particularly special. Uniform I picture is more formal dress... And street clothes civvies. But that's just my thoughts on it.

-=Brother Praetus=-

I could try and make some rules on it from a B5 book that my dear mom has.