Hello, i play L5R role playing since First version. I'm a minor clan and mantis clan lover, but sadly i don't see them on the beta... Are they coming soon ?

14 hours ago, dragfal said:

Hello, i play L5R role playing since First version. I'm a minor clan and mantis clan lover, but sadly i don't see them on the beta... Are they coming soon ?

You know exactly as much as we do. There's no way to say when or if the Mantis will ever become a Great Clan since the timeline was reset.

I think the best you can hope for is material for them in whatever book, maybe even the core, that has write-ups on Minor Clans. The beta, at least, mentions they are the most prominent of the Minor Clans. So that's a good sign.

Minor clans are confirmed in both the recent fiction and the RP beta. Also Yoritomo is confirmed. As to when we'll get more info, nothing official.

Considering the fact that schools have significantly less unique mechanics than 4e, putting in a few sidebars and an appendix for the former timeline support is reasonable.

- The core Mantis families existed as minor clans in 1E, (even the Wasp).

- The Bat, Monkey, Oriole, and Ox were added by the CCG.

- The falcon in the CCG joined the Crab, again maybe a sidebar if that changes mechanics.

- The Agasha split into Tamori and Agasha (Pheonix).

- The Hitomi/Hoshi schools.

- .... and the Spider.

So minimum support would be:

- Including the non cannonical minor clans as GM options to put in a game.

- Any rules needed for when a minor clan joins a great clan.

- Rules for the Spider. Again presented as a GM option of "What if a bunch of lost form their own 'Clan'"

- Rules for the Hitomi/Hoshi schools.

- Agasha/Tamori could be handled by simply allowing the Pheonix to also access the Agasha family, and in the Dragon they are called Tamori.

I'm assuming they're saving something for expansions. Gotta keep you coming back for more books later.

1 hour ago, bloodycelt said:

- The core Mantis families existed as minor clans in 1E, (even the Wasp).

It's important to note that they were not in the core rulebook for 1st Edition. They were added in a supplement. If they aren't in the core rulebook, I'd guess that is FFG's intention, given the fact that the Mantis is still a minor clan at that point in the story.

One would be safe to assume that the timeline is going to progress similarly to the original one, even if not exactly. I haven't seen anything to suggest FFG is looking to radically overhaul the storyline. You don't do that with a 20-year-old property that you just bought. The Mantis will come I'm sure.

hum...There should be mechanical differences. The Tamori philosophy and training is really different. Agasha are more scholars and researchers/alchemist, while Tamori are highly militant and battle focused.

13 minutes ago, Nitenman said:

hum...There should be mechanical differences. The Tamori philosophy and training is really different. Agasha are more scholars and researchers/alchemist, while Tamori are highly militant and battle focused.

Unless the Agasha join the Phoenix... there is no Tamori is there?

The beta PDF says that these aren't the only schools that will be in the final version, just what they felt were the most flavor representative for their needs.

I wouldn't count the minor clans out, and I'd be shocked if at least Ronin and Brotherhood weren't in core.

I'm not a great fan of Mantis, not because i dislike it but because i dislike the fact that a bunch of minor families, would rise to the status of a kami-founded major clan. Honestly, in the strictly rigidi structure of the Rokugan has more sense the Spider Clan (and not, i dislike the very existence of a clan formed by lost and Fu-Leng's followers )

But i'd like to let them be a Minor Clans. Minor Clans are another aspect of the Rokugan. It shows that if someone is worth enough can take his family name and his mon. A Minor clan will never be considered at same glory rank than Major but can have close enough honor and be worthful allies (or enemies) to all samurai

10 minutes ago, VaeVictis said:

One would be safe to assume that the timeline is going to progress similarly to the original one, even if not exactly. I haven't seen anything to suggest FFG is looking to radically overhaul the storyline. You don't do that with a 20-year-old property that you just bought. The Mantis will come I'm sure.

Honestly? what i like more of this edition is the history timeline reset. There is something very little i liked of the story through 2nd-4rth edition but i think are 50% crap and 49.99% even worse. So no, i hope the timeline will not progress similarly to the original one. Maybe something similar would happen, ie scorpion clan trying a coup to the Emperor, but clan war, spirit war, hitomi becoming moon, darkness becoming akodo and spider clan rising up, that and many more, i hope will never see again...

22 minutes ago, shosuko said:

Unless the Agasha join the Phoenix... there is no Tamori is there?

Indeed mate. And we are back to the "what if" configuration. Even worst. If there is no Hitomi moon, no defection of Agasha to phoenix. But if no Agasha Tamori becoming dark Oracle of Fire, his daughter wont take the Tamori name and start the family...

And biff never gets the sport almanach...

42 minutes ago, VaeVictis said:

It's important to note that they were not in the core rulebook for 1st Edition. They were added in a supplement. If they aren't in the core rulebook, I'd guess that is FFG's intention, given the fact that the Mantis is still a minor clan at that point in the story.

One would be safe to assume that the timeline is going to progress similarly to the original one, even if not exactly. I haven't seen anything to suggest FFG is looking to radically overhaul the storyline. You don't do that with a 20-year-old property that you just bought. The Mantis will come I'm sure.

I'm mostly coming from the perspective of the cost/benefit of providing mechanics for the GM and players of the old RPG. The fact that they made a clear statement to assuage the worries of a player's favorite school not being in the RPG, it suggests its something FFG is putting thought to. Does it mean every school/faction/alt path/dojo will make it in? Probably not, but the likelihood that the original minor clans are included is stronger than say the Spider Clan; due to the earlier inclusion in the old canon.

I could see Yoritomo's Alliance become a thing, mostly because the Mantis are very popular; I can't see why FFG wont eventually include them as a playable faction in some manner in the CCG. On the other hand, I'm not sure if the actual plot will happen in the same manner.

21 minutes ago, kelpie said:

Honestly? what i like more of this edition is the history timeline reset. There is something very little i liked of the story through 2nd-4rth edition but i think are 50% crap and 49.99% even worse. So no, i hope the timeline will not progress similarly to the original one. Maybe something similar would happen, ie scorpion clan trying a coup to the Emperor, but clan war, spirit war, hitomi becoming moon, darkness becoming akodo and spider clan rising up, that and many more, i hope will never see again...

I guess I should qualify that. I can't imagine them altering the Coup and Clan War storyline fundamentally. If they threw everything after the ascension of Toturi into the garbage, I doubt too many people lose their minds. But a lot of the core setting events happen between the "Now" of the FFG setting and the results of the Second Day of Thunder. Rise and founding of minor clans, important and beloved characters, etc. The Clan War is L5R, lol. It's where the game started.

1 hour ago, VaeVictis said:

I guess I should qualify that. I can't imagine them altering the Coup and Clan War storyline fundamentally. If they threw everything after the ascension of Toturi into the garbage, I doubt too many people lose their minds. But a lot of the core setting events happen between the "Now" of the FFG setting and the results of the Second Day of Thunder. Rise and founding of minor clans, important and beloved characters, etc. The Clan War is L5R, lol. It's where the game started.

Ok let me clarifiy: i don't dislike Clan War. I dislike how and why they did Clan War in the second edition (or was the third? nevermind)
Scorpion Clan Coup is good material. 1000 years of peace (sort of...), shadownlands quiet but still the evil lurks low; inside the Empire things are going wrong. Plot are thickening and something abruptely happens who could change forever the face of Rokugan. If you think about it, is what happens in Game of Thrones. Is what happens in many fantasy settings

i don't like the Scorpion clan being banished (again: sort of). Entire Akodo family desappeared, the living heirs of one of the Kami. The reason behind all of that, is faible, and only real justification is "they decided the setting with CCG tournament, make peace with it and keep playing, *****"

Clan War is a good idea... but in the feeling of Rokugan a Clan Cold War, with some Clan Skirmish on the border is a way better idea. Giving the name to the Nameless so they will be banished is a good idea, actually a real good idea and very canon. Hitomi becoming the moon is garbage. Facing Fu Leng possessing Hantei himself is a good idea; killing Togashi, and letting Hantei Dinasty disappear is a pile of "bantha pudu".
Also, we had more than 1000 years of almost absolutely nothing, and in 30 years we had 3 different Emperor Dinasty change, Clan War, War vs Shadow, War vs Spirits, etc?

I hope the reboot will make them keep on the good thing, and destroy all the garbage ****. And also maybe letting the PC being the main actor of the story.

Also without the need to make a new edition every now and then and keeping the settings onward, they can easily give the right pace, produce main event campagin who will guide the player into events (like the original Scorpion Clan Coup idea) and so develop a coherent history where player can "live" what happens...

I'm not sure how clear you are on the real-world timeline of L5R, because you are putting chickens before eggs in a lot of places.

The banishment of the Scorpion and the Akodo is actually the original setup. Wasn't determined by the card game. It was the card game, lol. Scorpion Clan wasn't even a playable faction until Forbidden Knowledge and Akodo Toturi was an Unaligned Samurai (though he was Lion-colored bordered in the first sets). Scorpion Clan Coup was a prequel set that was released after the Clan Wars expansions were finished. In the original game, the Scorpion Clan Coup was something that had already occurred, and the Scorpion had been banished. There are only two Scorpion personalities even in the first edition.

Everything else about L5R came after. All the back-story from pre-Clan War. The Coup was a historical event when L5R started. Hitomi as the Moon, after. And I agreed very few tears would be shed if the Post-Clan War stuff got dropped.

No offense, but I'd guess to the majority of L5R players, your ideas are pudu too, lol. You want to reduce L5R to a story about squabbling feudal clans. There's literally no drama in your L5R story. If you want an L5R setting where nothing changes, it exists, and it's called "Everything before the Coup" and you could run endless samurai adventures in that era. And I don't even blame you. I run my L5R adventures small scale and all Pre-Coup because I don't think war settings are all that interesting for RPGs. But the L5R story is about the Coup, and the Clan Wars that it starts. You don't seem to understand that it is the meddling of a few ignorant players that sets all the evil in motion. That's why there are 1000 years of "nothing" and then suddenly massive upheaval.

Edit: To be clear, setting and story are different concepts. A setting is just a place, a backdrop, a snapshot in time. "Pre-Coup Rokugan" is a setting, not a story. The story would then be what you do in your game of L5R. It sounds like you want L5R to remain a "setting." Which I'm not going to fault you for, because personally if I were to run games, that's the setting I would use. I don't have any large attachment to the minor clans, so Mantis being a Minor Clan is no different from it being a Great Clan. If Toku hasn't established the Monkey Clan yet, it's not a problem for me. As a gamer, the Pre-Coup setting is where I would prefer to play my games because it offers the widest breadth of political possibilities and location options for a fantasy samurai game. As a person, I love most* parts of the Clan Wars story. Story is entirely different from Setting. I don't want to play RPG games in the Clan War because the war setting closes borders, creates military obligations, etc. and other secondary effects I'm not interested in playing around. But I still want that story to exist because it's cool*. To go tangentially, I love the original Star Wars trilogy and Rogue One. I have absolutely no desire to play the Star Wars RPG, so the setting is irrelevant. But the Star Wars story is still important to me.

*clearly not everything in L5R was great, but like the Ewoks, I'll take the good with the bad.

Personally I'm very happy with the history reset. I'm a Lion/Mantis player. Honestly I felt the recreation of the Akodo felt wrong. No longer was there this lost major element, for it had returned. Yoritomo was the man and I expect FFG to put him to good use, even if he fails to ascend to Great Clan status.

I'm fairly certain we will see plenty of minor clan support. Maybe not in the core rulebook, but at least eventually. The big question if they will do things like the Three Man Alliance, Yoritomo's Alliance, or the Mantis as a Great Clan absorbing smaller clans.

As a thought, The Crane got nailed hard by a Tsunami. Depending on where that started from, how long it had to build and how deep the earth shock was.....The Mantis Isles might not be there in any great fashion

Yoritomo, Falcon and Tortise are all confirmed so far. Minor clans are alive and well!

Hope the final content of 5e will be like the 4th ed core: Options for All great clans, imperials, shinseists AND minor clans in existence by early 1100.

12 minutes ago, llamaman88 said:

Yoritomo, Falcon and Tortise are all confirmed so far. Minor clans are alive and well!

While the Yoritomo might be there, the condition of their holdings is open to question

@VaeVictis , i started playing with L5R 1st edition book, then read story from 2nd edition and we decided to continue playing 1st edition.
I honestly don't know what's the story of CCG (i already disregarded CCG, not just L5R, after my youth disastrous experience with Magic).

I don't whant a static, boring, nothing-will-ever-happen setting. As i said, something about the scorpion coup and clan war afterward is good.
However, the pre-coup setting was wonderful: lot of hidden secrets, secret plots, lot of people working "behind the scenes". Apparent peaceful world, where many changes are happening slowly, so slowly noone seems noticing.

2nd edition setting, the Clan War setting, had something interesting, but in my opinion something was done in a bad manner, and it feels to me very very uninteresting: there was no real secret plots, no real pathos. Everything "special" was achieved by NPC and great heroes, so great no PC could even compete. So, they are just pawn in an big war without anything more to say
I don't care if that's the original CCG setting or if it's a follow-up from 1st. It's a lot of good ideas (because there are many good ideas), done in an awful manner who add nothing to the game and also removed some feeling. That's just an opinion, of course, and there will be someone who thing different from me. I'm good with it and i'm happy we all think differently
But the fact many people still play at 1st edition setting, is a good measure of how much pre-coup era was good.

Honestly i don't see many people arguing about post-second day of thunder era so i guess there are not many fans for it
Frankly i stopped playing while third edition book came out so dunno if in the end would be a good setting or not, but even you says it could be thrashed aside and noone will complain so i guess i'm not really far from truth when i say is a pile of ****

Now, back in topic: i hope they will put lot of minor clans into final book (and maybe also someone more, 'cause there are a lot of interesting plot about it...) and also both Three Man Alliance and Mantis Alliance where a good ideas of how far minor clan can grow. But i disagree about letting them become Major clans... :|

As for Spider Clan: they can do whatever they whant, spider clan will be forever Shadowlands and then forbidden in my games u_u

The setting has absolutely reverted to where it should be, what is essentially the start. Anytime prior to this and you're playing in 1000 years of peace which is blissfully dull for everyone in Rokugan.

Starting where they are they have the luxury of the Scorpion Coup and Clan War (imho the best era of the game) to look forward to. But more importantly they have the benefit of planning beyond these occasions with foresight that AEG never had originally as they had no idea if the game would be that successful.

With that in mind it means that they can tie future narratives into the setting far better, allowing for foreshadowing of events so that new story arcs don't just appear out of nowhere. Things like the Lying Darkness could be great if they didn't just suddenly appear out of nowhere and to retcon previous plot and lore. All this ultimately leaves me optimistic about the future of the storyline.

they had to anyway. Previous timeline was too dependent on AEG CCG.

You know 1000 years of peace is a sweet euphemism. Nothing really peaceful over these 1000 years and there had been plenty of interesting era and events to play with. The rises of Iuchiban, the Gozoku, the white stag, the building of the Kaiu Wall, Return of the Kirin and one of my favorite: Dawn of the Empire.

and agreed I hope they will avoid the AEG "vilain of the week" effect of popping new apocalyptic threats every 20 years or so.

16 hours ago, Nitenman said:

and agreed I hope they will avoid the AEG "vilain of the week" effect of popping new apocalyptic threats every 20 years or so.

And most important, they can road the player to the next apocalyptic threats by carefully planned campaign (like the origina Otosan Uchi boxed set who leaded to Scorpion Clan Coup) in lieu of narrate them in the next edition book like something someone else experienced... (and i know it's the same things happening in Star Wars where all the fun narrative are taken by main characthers of the films... and series... and comics... but there is a Galaxy outside so you can plan on something else more easily than in the little land named Rokugan...)

Keep in mind, the core set is perennial, FFG MIGHT do a Scorpion Coup, but the next year Scorpion decks will still be legal. I could see them having a few big events to move the storyline forward, but in the RPG and CCG they will still mostly be handled via options like a ronin version of Totouri, not blocking the player from still using the Core Set version.

I could also see FFG representing big events like a Day of Thunder via a challenge deck.