We can toss ideas around here. Any one with any ideas feel free to join in.
Giled and I try to make Star Trek work for Armada
"So I agree, and I took a route very intentionally beside that. My figuring was that there's no point figuring out if a Sovereign is an equal match for a Victory, so I got the scale of Imperial/Rebel power, laid down the relative power of different Starfleet ships next to it, and just started subbing them in. A D'deridex is the only thing near as large as an MC80, let alone an ISD, so I cut to the chase and reapplied the scale evenly.
For that Trek feel, I'm open to depowering the ships some and allowing them to use upgrades to get parity with SW combatants, but it'll be delicate. One of the first changes I made was the Electronics Retrofit, a new upgrade to cover the "science" powers of Starfleet ships, so we can use that. I'd rather keep Turbo, Ion, and Ordnance just so we don't have to start from scratch, but I'm also open to ideas there. I'd put transporter craziness in support teams, but we can do case by case."
I noticed the ElectricRetro upgrades and think that's a good idea and could cover most of the "science" upgrades of Trek. I like Advanced Labs but could i do think it's under costed for its potential benefit but then again there's no guarantee that you'll be able to play a mission where it has any benefit at all.
48 minutes ago, Megatronrex said:"So I agree, and I took a route very intentionally beside that. My figuring was that there's no point figuring out if a Sovereign is an equal match for a Victory, so I got the scale of Imperial/Rebel power, laid down the relative power of different Starfleet ships next to it, and just started subbing them in. A D'deridex is the only thing near as large as an MC80, let alone an ISD, so I cut to the chase and reapplied the scale evenly.
For that Trek feel, I'm open to depowering the ships some and allowing them to use upgrades to get parity with SW combatants, but it'll be delicate. One of the first changes I made was the Electronics Retrofit, a new upgrade to cover the "science" powers of Starfleet ships, so we can use that. I'd rather keep Turbo, Ion, and Ordnance just so we don't have to start from scratch, but I'm also open to ideas there. I'd put transporter craziness in support teams, but we can do case by case."
I noticed the ElectricRetro upgrades and think that's a good idea and could cover most of the "science" upgrades of Trek. I like Advanced Labs but could i do think it's under costed for its potential benefit but then again there's no guarantee that you'll be able to play a mission where it has any benefit at all.
Yup that's that ones issue. Any token objective other than Intel Sweep, it pays itself off on one. But like Strategic, you can see it in their lists. Maybe add less value (50% boost)?
48 minutes ago, GiledPallaeon said:Yup that's that ones issue. Any token objective other than Intel Sweep, it pays itself off on one. But like Strategic, you can see it in their lists. Maybe add less value (50% boost)?
You'd have to round up or down for those 15 point objectives. Maybe just increase the value by 5. Makes it harder to pay for itself that way though.
16 minutes ago, Megatronrex said:You'd have to round up or down for those 15 point objectives. Maybe just increase the value by 5. Makes it harder to pay for itself that way though.
That will mean you need two tokens to get the value of the card, and for the present Starfleet lacks a Strategic carrier (I think, I'd have to go back and make sure none of the Danube 's were updated with it.) We may want to set that one aside for now. Same for Long-Range Sensor Array, another that will be a major pain to cost. Are there any of the ships that leapt out to you as balanced/which seemed the most egregiously in need of aid?
9 hours ago, GiledPallaeon said:That will mean you need two tokens to get the value of the card, and for the present Starfleet lacks a Strategic carrier (I think, I'd have to go back and make sure none of the Danube 's were updated with it.) We may want to set that one aside for now. Same for Long-Range Sensor Array, another that will be a major pain to cost. Are there any of the ships that leapt out to you as balanced/which seemed the most egregiously in need of aid?
Only one variant of the Danube has Strategic. As far as ship balance goes I'll have to spend some time flipping back and forth between KDY and the Trek wiki to get a better handle on how they stack up to each other. Over 30 years of watching Trek and I'm just now discovering how little I know about the differences in ships. I think the Constitution class Exploration is probably undercosted by 5 points or more. It's currently only 2 more than a Raider2 and is in my opinion a vatly superior ship. I'd cut the firepower on the Galaxy classes, maybe lose a die from front and sides and possibly increase the speed to 3 (I can't find much info about Sub-light speeds for Trek ships). That would probably lead to ships like the Ambassador (I didn't know anything about this one before this) and Sovereign class being out of line too though.
I see alot of federation talk. May I interject with some questions?
1 cloaking. How would this be handeld, seeing as it is a rather large portion of the tactics of the Klingons and Romulans.
2. Phasers & torpedoes. Seeing as I vaguely remember that phasers are close range and torpedoes are long, what would we use to accommodate the third dice range?
3. Shuttles. They are the only thing I can think of in the size that would be for fighters. I don't remember them too much in combat. I vaguely remember fighters and bombers but not well enough to know if they are doable.
These are just a couple of thoughts.
18 minutes ago, Noosh said:I see alot of federation talk. May I interject with some questions?
1 cloaking. How would this be handeld, seeing as it is a rather large portion of the tactics of the Klingons and Romulans.
2. Phasers & torpedoes. Seeing as I vaguely remember that phasers are close range and torpedoes are long, what would we use to accommodate the third dice range?
3. Shuttles. They are the only thing I can think of in the size that would be for fighters. I don't remember them too much in combat. I vaguely remember fighters and bombers but not well enough to know if they are doable.
These are just a couple of thoughts.
Welcome to the cluster f*** Noosh
1 Cloaking - No idea yet but I don't want it to work like it does in Armada not sure what @GiledPallaeon thinks on the matter.
2 - Possibly Proton Beams or pulse cannons I know those are canon. Not sure how or even if Rail Guns are implemented in universe but I wouldn't be surprised.
3 - Squads are going to be hard due to they're lack of use relative to Star Wars. There will definitely be a limited variety so I'd opt for them to be high cost with a wide array of keyword abilities. Definitely a quality over quantity thing and I think Giled's runabouts come pretty close though they are still somewhat lacking in AS but that should change as things get added like the Delta Flyer.
@Noosh here's what Giled's already got on KDY
5 minutes ago, Megatronrex said:Welcome to the cluster f*** Noosh
1 Cloaking - No idea yet but I don't want it to work like it does in Armada not sure what @GiledPallaeon thinks on the matter.
2 - Possibly Proton Beams or pulse cannons I know those are canon. Not sure how or even if Rail Guns are implemented in universe but I wouldn't be surprised.
3 - Squads are going to be hard due to they're lack of use relative to Star Wars. There will definitely be a limited variety so I'd opt for them to be high cost with a wide array of keyword abilities. Definitely a quality over quantity thing and I think Giled's runabouts come pretty close though they are still somewhat lacking in AS but that should change as things get added like the Delta Flyer.
I have to say Megatronrex it's the best kind of f*** and I look forward to having this out!
3 hours ago, Megatronrex said:Only one variant of the Danube has Strategic. As far as ship balance goes I'll have to spend some time flipping back and forth between KDY and the Trek wiki to get a better handle on how they stack up to each other. Over 30 years of watching Trek and I'm just now discovering how little I know about the differences in ships. I think the Constitution class Exploration is probably undercosted by 5 points or more. It's currently only 2 more than a Raider2 and is in my opinion a vatly superior ship. I'd cut the firepower on the Galaxy classes, maybe lose a die from front and sides and possibly increase the speed to 3 (I can't find much info about Sub-light speeds for Trek ships). That would probably lead to ships like the Ambassador (I didn't know anything about this one before this) and Sovereign class being out of line too though.
So the Galaxy is a ship where simply to mix things up I hamstrung it on speed. I'm certainly open to going back and giving it speed 3, but I figured between the Ambassador and Sovereign , Starfleet had Speed 3 Large covered. Don't feel bad about not remembering the former. It appeared in exactly one TNG episode, "Yesterday's Enterprise", and it's the class of the Enterprise -C (the specific Ambassador class unit that appeared in the episode). IIRC the Ambassador class part may not have been in the episode, but I can't swear to it.
1 hour ago, Noosh said:I see alot of federation talk. May I interject with some questions?
1 cloaking. How would this be handeld, seeing as it is a rather large portion of the tactics of the Klingons and Romulans.
2. Phasers & torpedoes. Seeing as I vaguely remember that phasers are close range and torpedoes are long, what would we use to accommodate the third dice range?
3. Shuttles. They are the only thing I can think of in the size that would be for fighters. I don't remember them too much in combat. I vaguely remember fighters and bombers but not well enough to know if they are doable.
These are just a couple of thoughts.
Cloaking I've quietly set aside because I have several competing ideas on how to do it and no concrete solutions. Starfleet and the Dominion don't use cloaks, so I started there. This is the working solution , but again, lack of time, so it's been left aside.
So I always remembered that phasers were long range and fairly precise weapons, while torpedoes were a somewhat more blunt force instrument at shorter ranges. The only ship that's actually informed is the Akira . Generally, I've ditched that and focused on giving Starfleet a variety of weapon fits, most with a fairly heavy long-range component. If you'd like to suggest an alternative, I'm open to it, but it will need to be compelling to get me to change every ship quickly.
Yeah, welcome to my problem. Starfleet has exactly one ship in the same vein as a starfighter, the Peregrine , and it's the far side of an ARC-170 in mass last I looked. It's up there, as are several versions of the Danube s DS9 couldn't keep in one piece. At some point I'm going to continue adding shuttles for new and strange combinations of keywords and abilities, but Starfleet, this as an intentional choice, is precious short on squadron points as a rule, partly as faction flavor, partly to give myself some fun constraints when I work on them. Also, excepting DS9, when did you ever see a Starfleet ship managing a collection of shuttles or the like? Exactly. @Megatronrex correctly interpreted my intent, so let's see where that leads.
1 hour ago, Noosh said:I have to say Megatronrex it's the best kind of f*** and I look forward to having this out!
The more the merrier.
5 hours ago, Megatronrex said:Only one variant of the Danube has Strategic. As far as ship balance goes I'll have to spend some time flipping back and forth between KDY and the Trek wiki to get a better handle on how they stack up to each other. Over 30 years of watching Trek and I'm just now discovering how little I know about the differences in ships. I think the Constitution class Exploration is probably undercosted by 5 points or more. It's currently only 2 more than a Raider2 and is in my opinion a vatly superior ship. I'd cut the firepower on the Galaxy classes, maybe lose a die from front and sides and possibly increase the speed to 3 (I can't find much info about Sub-light speeds for Trek ships). That would probably lead to ships like the Ambassador (I didn't know anything about this one before this) and Sovereign class being out of line too though.
Addendum, on second inspection I agree with your assessment of the Constitution s. I upped the cheaper one to 58 pts and the expensive one to 62 to start with.
2 minutes ago, GiledPallaeon said:Addendum, on second inspection I agree with your assessment of the Constitution s. I upped the cheaper one to 58 pts and the expensive one to 62 to start with.
I started making some cards let me know what you think.
http://kdyards.com/user.php?id=261
I can't figure out how to put the LOS dots in the correct place so I gave up on ships for the moment.
I have an idea for cloak. Just on the defensive end
A ship with cloak may do so at the beginning of the round, and gain a cloak token. When a ship has a cloak token it gains scatter defence tokens of equal number to the ships existing defence tokens, repacing them while in cloak. When a cloak token is on a ship, the ships sheilds are effectively treated as 0 regardless of value.
A cloaked ship may be attacked as normal save that accuracy results exaust then discard defence tokens. If the ship with a cloak token has no defence tokens left, then the ship is forced to decloak upon it's activation. and have sheild vales on all facing reduced by 1.
17 minutes ago, Megatronrex said:I started making some cards let me know what you think.
http://kdyards.com/user.php?id=261
I can't figure out how to put the LOS dots in the correct place so I gave up on ships for the moment.
The officers look good. I'm mildly concerned about Seven's cost, but given the heated competition for space for officers on Rebel and Imperial ships, I imagine over time her opportunity cost will increase drastically. We can handle that as it comes. For LoS dots, IIRC when @FoaS made the system he just allowed LoS dots to move fore and aft for simplicity's sake. I don't remember if you used to be able to manipulate the location of the bow and stern LoS dots, I haven't actually made a ship since the arc system got rearranged and I can't remember if that was part of the original system. If we want to get that added we can bug him. We also seem to be converging on the Constitution , which is good. You seem to be taking a more personnel based approach to Starfleet's upgrade access, which is fine. I tried to have one ship from each class be the crew-heavy version, and one be the combat heavy version with more aggressive slots (like the weapons sets). I imagine most of the fleet will end up overhauled by the time we're done.
FYI I'm also an admin on the site, so if there's a category or the like you need adjusted let me know and if I don't need to bug @cynanbloodbane for graphics help I'll do it next time I'm online. Speaking of, FoaS, do you mind if we make @Megatronrex an admin?
16 minutes ago, Noosh said:I have an idea for cloak. Just on the defensive end
A ship with cloak may do so at the beginning of the round, and gain a cloak token. When a ship has a cloak token it gains scatter defence tokens of equal number to the ships existing defence tokens, repacing them while in cloak. When a cloak token is on a ship, the ships sheilds are effectively treated as 0 regardless of value.
A cloaked ship may be attacked as normal save that accuracy results exaust then discard defence tokens. If the ship with a cloak token has no defence tokens left, then the ship is forced to decloak upon it's activation. and have sheild vales on all facing reduced by 1.
That's a decent way to capture how hard a cloaked ship is pin down, but I have a couple procedural concerns. One, when a ship reverts back, does it gain what of the normal suite it had before cloaking, or does it only gain as many as cloak tokens weren't lost? If a ship loses a cloak scatter, uncloaks, does something, and recloaks, is that lost scatter still lost? And finally, for that accuracy exhaust thing, are we treating it like Sloane where only the exhausted token can't be spent again or like a regular use where all similar tokens are now inaccessible?
17 minutes ago, GiledPallaeon said:The officers look good. I'm mildly concerned about Seven's cost, but given the heated competition for space for officers on Rebel and Imperial ships, I imagine over time her opportunity cost will increase drastically. We can handle that as it comes. For LoS dots, IIRC when @FoaS made the system he just allowed LoS dots to move fore and aft for simplicity's sake. I don't remember if you used to be able to manipulate the location of the bow and stern LoS dots, I haven't actually made a ship since the arc system got rearranged and I can't remember if that was part of the original system. If we want to get that added we can bug him. We also seem to be converging on the Constitution , which is good. You seem to be taking a more personnel based approach to Starfleet's upgrade access, which is fine. I tried to have one ship from each class be the crew-heavy version, and one be the combat heavy version with more aggressive slots (like the weapons sets). I imagine most of the fleet will end up overhauled by the time we're done.
FYI I'm also an admin on the site, so if there's a category or the like you need adjusted let me know and if I don't need to bug @cynanbloodbane for graphics help I'll do it next time I'm online. Speaking of, FoaS, do you mind if we make @Megatronrex an admin?
That's a decent way to capture how hard a cloaked ship is pin down, but I have a couple procedural concerns. One, when a ship reverts back, does it gain what of the normal suite it had before cloaking, or does it only gain as many as cloak tokens weren't lost? If a ship loses a cloak scatter, uncloaks, does something, and recloaks, is that lost scatter still lost? And finally, for that accuracy exhaust thing, are we treating it like Sloane where only the exhausted token can't be spent again or like a regular use where all similar tokens are now inaccessible?
I'm certainly open to adjusting Seven's point cost.
The LOS thing isn't a big deal until we get far enough along to start printing and play testing.
I'll try to keep in mind one crew oriented version and one combat oriented version. It makes sense now why there's such a wide variation in upgrade slots.
Give me some time to get used to playing with things as they are before asking Foas for any changes.
I think the way you've handled Cloak already is pretty solid as a concept. Might be possible to have some Cloak Condition cards (similar to the one's in X-Wing) to more easily differentiate the types of Cloak and their effects.
1 hour ago, GiledPallaeon said:That's a decent way to capture how hard a cloaked ship is pin down, but I have a couple procedural concerns. One, when a ship reverts back, does it gain what of the normal suite it had before cloaking, or does it only gain as many as cloak tokens weren't lost? If a ship loses a cloak scatter, uncloaks, does something, and recloaks, is that lost scatter still lost? And finally, for that accuracy exhaust thing, are we treating it like Sloane where only the exhausted token can't be spent again or like a regular use where all similar tokens are now inaccessible?
So when a ship design de cloaks:
Defence tokens. How about all tokens are returned but in an exausted state, so that way a ship forced out of cloak regardless of how, still has some defence but if pushed could lose the long term benefits of defence tokens.
Accuracy result. Sloan is the right basic idea. But I was thinking that each accuracy result will first exaust the scatter tokens, untill their are no more green scatters then start discarding the exausted ones. They can still use the scatters they have left, to represent the attacker trying to zero in on the cloaked ship. Once there are no more scatters it represents basically the attacking side zeroing in on you and all remaining damge goes straight to the hull.
In terms of cloaking again the number of remaining defence tokens would be turned into scatters.
I was thinking maybe just losing the tokens that you lost when you lost the scatters. Of course you choose which tokens you would keep. But I thought for the sake of balance it would be beneficial for the ship with cloak to not be absolutely without long term defence. But I would have to look at more ships with cloaking capabilities to decide that.
Also what about disrupters? Will we treat them like phasers?
My take on Cloak base on Giled's
Cloaking Device - Romulan and Klingon Only - Electronics Retrofit - 10pts? - You gain 1 Cloaked Ship Condition card.
Condition: Cloaked Ship
When attacking: Once per round, during your first attack, you may add 1 die of any color already in your attack pool. After making an attack, exhaust this card.
When defending: All attacks are obstructed. The attacker must spend 1 die with an [r:acc] icon or all attack die are canceled. You may not spend [d:redirect] tokens. When you take damage, damage is dealt directly to your hull. You do not suffer critical effects. After you suffer damage from an attack exhaust this card.
It really depends on how powerful you want cloak to be. Is it a small defensive measure, or does it basically stop you from being shot at/damaged?
I mean, you can straight up make a Cloak effect be:
While Cloaked:
- Your Attack Dice are Halved (rounding down)
[Or even, you cannot attack. Unless you have some other Klingon-based upgrade...
"Chang!!"
]
- You cannot spend defense tokens.
[Because you're already getting an effect. But this is a possibility one way or another - if you deny all attacks, you may want to allow defense tokens]
- After rolling attack dice against you, for every ACC result the enemy spends, they may keep 1 die in their attack pool. All remaining Dice are cancelled. Damage is dealt directly to hull. No critical effects can be made.
[You shouldn't take many hits. But what hits will hurt.]
Perhaps make it a Start of Turn decision - Cloak or Not.
Eh, all ideas.
1 minute ago, Drasnighta said:It really depends on how powerful you want cloak to be. Is it a small defensive measure, or does it basically stop you from being shot at/damaged?
I mean, you can straight up make a Cloak effect be:
While Cloaked:
- Your Attack Dice are Halved (rounding down) [Or even, you cannot attack. Unless you have some other Klingon-based upgrade... "Chang!!" ]
- You cannot spend defense tokens. [Because you're already getting an effect. But this is a possibility one way or another - if you deny all attacks, you may want to allow defense tokens]
- After rolling attack dice against you, for every ACC result the enemy spends, they may keep 1 die in their attack pool. All remaining Dice are cancelled. Damage is dealt directly to hull. No critical effects can be made. [You shouldn't take many hits. But what hits will hurt.]
Perhaps make it a Start of Turn decision - Cloak or Not.
Eh, all ideas.
As far as power goes I'm thinking it should make it extremely hard to hit, maybe vary it by range too, but due to the lack of shields while cloaked if you do hit it it suffers big time.
I'd rather go with attacking decloaks you rather than halving your attack pool. I think most cloaked ships had to decloak to fire didn't they? I wanted to add to the attack pool to simulate somewhat of an element of surprise feel to it.
I thought about going with You cannot spend defense tokens but opted just for the redirect as a kind of way of showing the cloaks effect on shields. I'm open to it either way.
I really like the idea of spending 1 acc per die kept.
I was thinking the condition card would just refresh during the command phase but maybe you should spend an engineering token at the start of the round like Fleet Commands.
They may just be ideas but I'm enjoying it.
Los dots cannot be moved except as described earlier. This may change if people really want it, it'll just take me time, as usual.
Have fun with admin rights, mega. Don't break anything.
16 minutes ago, FoaS said:Los dots cannot be moved except as described earlier. This may change if people really want it, it'll just take me time, as usual.
Have fun with admin rights, mega. Don't break anything.
I'll figure out what I'm doing eventually.
I'll try to be careful. Thanks @FoaS
I think, otherwise, I'd try to look at things from a completely Empirical standpoint...
For example, I don't
know
too much of a lore for Star Trek when it comes to the nitty details.
But I think if I had a basic Spreadsheet that listed Ships by 1) Overall Size, 2) Shield Rating and 3) Armament, I could probably knock up at least a baseline ship progression.
I think that's going to be the key to a project like this. Set a Smallest of Small, Set a Largest of Large, and scale things inbetween from there.
I can't disagree with that the base line progression chart is something I already thought about but haven't touched.