7 minutes ago, Bayushi Karyudo said:

I was actually thinking on the case of crafting skills. It kinda sucks for them, because if you're a crafter of X, you're kind of expected to know how to repair, adapt, and at least improve that X. Invent and attune are in the "Master" league, so to speak, but still... that's 3 of 5 rings you need to invest just to be able to do your job.

And with Rings being used for multiple skills (instead of 2 Traits per Ring), it kinda turns into "Oh, I just buy a little skill in Y, and now I'm rolling like a boss in it"

Not quite sure how I feel about it :/

I'm not sure you'd have to know all of them. A blacksmith who spends all their time refining new weapons- which is entirely possible, given how much time it takes to forge them!- might be bad at refurbishing weapons into something else (swords into plowshares). By contrast, a genius on the level of Leonardo Da Vinci might be amazing at inventing new things- but useless at actually repairing/ maintaining what they actually make.

But then, that's the secret, isn't it? No one crafter will have the exact same capacities as any other.

I logged in for the first time in years just to say that the system choice here makes absolutely no sense. Either use Genesys or scrap Genesys, don't kinda-sorta use it but only occasionally. I was hoping Genesys is an effort to consolidate and standardize the idea behind the Star Wars RPG and leverage it for all (similar) RPGs going forward. This would be a Good Thing(tm) because it would help the system evolve and it projects confidence in the product. At this point, Genesys makes no sense and I'm not very interested in it if all I have is "maybe Netrunner RPG will use it one day". And I'm not very sold on Legend of the Five Rings having its own unique system either because RPG systems are hard.

I really love FFG, they are my favored dealers of cardboard crack. But their approach to RPGs is not good.

Ok is it just me or did they take the mechanics of all their game systems thrown then in a hat and start picking ?

I see parts of Dark Heresy, R&K, and SWFFG all mix together.

This is going to take a long time to go over.

I really don't like the idea of the dice of my actions to determine my emotional state. It takes way to much control out of my hands and for something that is supposed to be "narrative" it places to much chance into my characters behavior, way more than actual narrative games do. I can see it now;
player: i want to use my artistic skills to make a perfect oragami place setting for my sisters wedding.

GM: roll skill
player: rolls 5 strife and 6 successes
Gm: well your parents are standing in the doorway awaiting your explanation for flipping the table through the wall and into the koi pond, as you screemed profanity at the paper in your hands. on the bright side the dragon you made is exquisitely folded.

53 minutes ago, DarkHorse said:

Yet. I would try to rebuild the characters from my 4th ed group except there is no Mirumoto Bushi or Soshi shugenja in the beta. All things in time.

I'm guessing they intentionally left a bunch of schools out. Not uncommon for beta test rules. In theory, it forces players to buy the full versions later. But yeah, right now, no Crane or Lion shugenja, no Phoenix, Unicorn or Crab courtiers, no Scorpion or Dragon bushi. The families in some clans are even more pigeonholing than they were in the previous editions by giving skill and ring increases that are meaningless to certain kinds of characters. Was actually one of my least favorite aspects of the older versions given how important rings and traits were to beginning characters, and they dialed it up a notch for this one. An Ikoma will make the basis of a good courtier, but your Ikoma bushi will at least sing some cool songs and write a pretty mean haiku. One thing is for sure though: the Unicorn love calisthenics.

Kinda like some of the approaches to the game. Will be interesting to see how combat actually plays out once I've figured out the range bands and damage mechanics. Definitely a major negative in a custom dice set. I've always been a fan of having to teach new players how to interpret custom hieroglyphics.

7 minutes ago, VaeVictis said:

Kinda like some of the approaches to the game. Will be interesting to see how combat actually plays out once I've figured out the range bands and damage mechanics. Definitely a major negative in a custom dice set. I've always been a fan of having to teach new players how to interpret custom hieroglyphics.

At least there are no Boost/Setback or Difficulty/Challenge dice.

It should be easier to teach players just four symbols.

Original Game Desing.... by.... JOHN WICK!!!

He made this beta before of after his excomunication from the assasing guild xD

As a historical observation, many crafters of Katana were also crafters of naginata, so they aren't as limited as one might think

15 minutes ago, tenchi2a said:

At least there are no Boost/Setback or Difficulty/Challenge dice.

It should be easier to teach players just four symbols.

Their WFRP has 7 different dice, Star Wars has 7 as well. Seeing only 2 here makes me very happy, less Dice packs required and much easier to teach.

My initial reactions:

wow is it complex. I love it, but wow. Character creation is cool, could take a lot to actually follow through though, it's not a 20 minute process that's for sure. But the end result is absolutely going to be more than just a bunch of numbers on a page.

Love the Ring/Skill system. Skill training is ultra important as they have less 1/4 chance of Strife vs the 1/2 of Ring dice. Also the fact you only keep as many dice as the Ring means you're limited in total success by the Ring you choose but can reach that number easier with Skill training.

The idea everyone is identical in the normal characteristics of an RPG, but their approach to life varies, is a novel and interesting idea.

This system is going to take some getting used to, a lot. The first few sessions are definitely going to be slow.

1 minute ago, Richardbuxton said:

Their WFRP has 7 different dice, Star Wars has 7 as well. Seeing only 2 here makes me very happy, less Dice packs required and much easier to teach.

My initial reactions:

wow is it complex. I love it, but wow. Character creation is cool, could take a lot to actually follow through though, it's not a 20 minute process that's for sure. But the end result is absolutely going to be more than just a bunch of numbers on a page.

Love the Ring/Skill system. Skill training is ultra important as they have less 1/4 chance of Strife vs the 1/2 of Ring dice. Also the fact you only keep as many dice as the Ring means you're limited in total success by the Ring you choose but can reach that number easier with Skill training.

The idea everyone is identical in the normal characteristics of an RPG, but their approach to life varies, is a novel and interesting idea.

This system is going to take some getting used to, a lot. The first few sessions are definitely going to be slow.

Well Previous versions of Legend Of The Five Rings usually did have people start with somewhat similar stat builds, but the schools and other skill training brought out the colors, as well as backgrounds.

35 minutes ago, VaeVictis said:

I'm guessing they intentionally left a bunch of schools out.

Pg 33 - Where Is My Favorite School?
The schools featured in the Legend of the Five Rings Roleplaying Game Beta are not representative of the full list of schools that will be available in the core rulebook. The schools featured in the beta were chosen to include a mixture of iconic and interesting school options, as well as to test a variety of different school types and techniques.

First skim results

Looking good

1. Looks like they found a way to balance traits and skills, so traits are impotent but being skill is preferred.

2. Just two types of die skills and rings, still custom die but I may be able to live with this.

3. Schools seem to borrow from Dark Heresy with advancement ranks with sub-advancements.

4. weapon seem to be balanced.

5. Has a mass combat system that seems to be integrated into the system and not a tack on.

6. Wound system seems to have been Borrowed/stolen from 7th sea. dramatic wounds anyone.

Needs work

1. School list is uneven. Some Clans get Shugenja some don't.

2. No history section.

3. Layout needs lots of work, have to jump around constantly to learn mechanic or create a Character.

Well that's it for starters will add more after a full read through.

The book definitely needs more work in layout. It is very hard to compare different schools and clans and families simplified tables showing all options at the start of each section may improve this.

A lot of this system remind me of their Warhammer system. The character advancement is very similar, the flexible abilities selection is very similar. This is definitely an evolution of Warhammer and not the Star Wars system. If I had to guess some of it is also borrowed from Genesys with the advantage/disadvantages system.

2 hours ago, DarkHorse said:

Yet. I would try to rebuild the characters from my 4th ed group except there is no Mirumoto Bushi or Soshi shugenja in the beta. All things in time.

*grumble* still....

I'll need to read over everything in detail but it feels like a good mix of old and new.

1 hour ago, Mirumoto Seiichiro said:

I really don't like the idea of the dice of my actions to determine my emotional state. It takes way to much control out of my hands and for something that is supposed to be "narrative" it places to much chance into my characters behavior, way more than actual narrative games do. I can see it now;
player: i want to use my artistic skills to make a perfect oragami place setting for my sisters wedding.

GM: roll skill
player: rolls 5 strife and 6 successes
Gm: well your parents are standing in the doorway awaiting your explanation for flipping the table through the wall and into the koi pond, as you screemed profanity at the paper in your hands. on the bright side the dragon you made is exquisitely folded.

That's amusing and all, but that's only one possible interpretation of those rules. The whole point of the strife system seems to be to make players think about the emotional landscape of their characters. And not every "outburst" (as they're called) is some dramatic display of shirt rending and screaming. They are any way in which a player loses their composure, which in a setting as stoic as Rokugani tries to be, that can be as simple as letting out a sigh of frustration, dabbing at watering eyes, or even walking away to compose yourself at an inappropriate moment.

Yes, some of the narrative is forced on players, but in my opinion (and my opinion only), not in a overwhelming way. Firstly a player can always choose which dice to keep, and it's stated outright that they can choose to fail rather than "lose face." Otherwise, if they do choose to suffer an outburst, then its up to them to come up with a creative and "in-character" way that it happens that feels organic to the scene.

hmm...gonna take a while to chew on this. it's a lot to absorb

32 minutes ago, tenchi2a said:

First skim results

Looking good

1. Looks like they found a way to balance traits and skills, so traits are impotent but being skill is preferred.

2. Just two types of die skills and rings, still custom die but I may be able to live with this.

3. Schools seem to borrow from Dark Heresy with advancement ranks with sub-advancements.

4. weapon seem to be balanced.

5. Has a mass combat system that seems to be integrated into the system and not a tack on.

6. Wound system seems to have been Borrowed/stolen from 7th sea. dramatic wounds anyone.

Needs work

1. School list is uneven. Some Clans get Shugenja some don't.

2. No history section.

3. Layout needs lots of work, have to jump around constantly to learn mechanic or create a Character.

Well that's it for starters will add more after a full read through.

+1 but like in the fourth édition its not all clan Who got all class

I've read most of the Beta Book in the last couple hours.

Very different system to the old roll and keep 10 dice from 1st and 4th editions.

I too am a bit baffled by the two dice with blank faces? What's that about?

Go to d 4s and d 10s?

Will keep reading I think.

11 hours ago, Dawngreeter said:

I logged in for the first time in years just to say that the system choice here makes absolutely no sense. Either use Genesys or scrap Genesys, don't kinda-sorta use it but only occasionally. I was hoping Genesys is an effort to consolidate and standardize the idea behind the Star Wars RPG and leverage it for all (similar) RPGs going forward. This would be a Good Thing(tm) because it would help the system evolve and it projects confidence in the product. At this point, Genesys makes no sense and I'm not very interested in it if all I have is "maybe Netrunner RPG will use it one day".

My thoughts exactly, only weeks ago Genesys was hyped as FFGs house mechanics and was advertised being suitable fo every imaginable setting . And now instead of building on this bold claim they use some mix up between a little narrative dice light and a little previous edition R&K (which I never played and so don't care about) and yet another different custom dice.

11 hours ago, Akira Kakita said:

Original Game Desing.... by.... JOHN WICK!!!

He made this beta before of after his excomunication from the assasing guild xD

And in odd coincidence, the Kickstarter for his Eastern-inspired 7th Sea variant (touting him famously as the creator of L5R in its intro!) started up this week.

It's worth noting that the playtest for this book happened either around the same time as GeneSys or just before GeneSys. It would be folly to write up a CRB for a generic system at the same time you are writing up a setting book without having playtested the core mechanics. Remember these books can take at least year of development/production/design before they are announced.

I'm also of the opinion that if FFG is going to develop an entire line of RPG products around a specific setting (remember, we're almost certainly going to get more than just a CRB), they would want to use a system specifically designed to reflect the setting in which it is going to be used. Even though GeneSys/NarDS is my favorite RPG system to date, I still think designing a new system for L5R is a wise move.

4 hours ago, kaosoe said:

It's worth noting that the playtest for this book happened either around the same time as GeneSys or just before GeneSys. It would be folly to write up a CRB for a generic system at the same time you are writing up a setting book without having playtested the core mechanics. Remember these books can take at least year of development/production/design before they are announced.

So it's better to develop two completely different systems in parallel rather than focus on getting one system right?

35 minutes ago, Dawngreeter said:

So it's better to develop two completely different systems in parallel rather than focus on getting one system right?

I am not a spokesperson for FFG so what I am saying is just my own extrapolation. At this point we are only speculating. The crux of my post was that GeneSys is a wonderful generic system, but might not have been the L5R system (as others have expressed leading up to this beta). So rather than try to jam GeneSys into L5R, they chose to build from scratch.

For the first part of my argument, my suspicion is they wanted to start pumping out games soon so they can start seeing a return for their investment in to the L5R purchase. So rather than waiting for GeneSys to hit the shelves and determine if it was both stable and viable, they decided to pursue a new system. You are welcome to debate my points, but at this point we are working off of spec, so there's no point, and nothing of any substance to be gained.

They are different RPGs. There is no reason for them to only use one system in everything that they make. Genesys seems to be their default system for the majority of future RPGs. The fact that L5R is getting something custom made specifically for the line indicates to me that they are treating L5R as a special project that will get much support due to the effort required to create the new system. If it were only Genesys, the tacked on generic system, that wouldn't tell us anything of how much support and the game will get nor how much FFG cares about the RPG side of L5R. This unique system is a good sign that FFG is going to do a lot for L5R the RPG. It is also telling that they have probably been working on the RPG about as long as the LCG, given that the Beta is being released at the same time as the LCG.

So far I like it. However, it does seem that determining the final results of rolls will be slow going. Not only do you roll to find out, but you go back to your roll many times, to outright change a die result, re-roll a die result, determine what to keep, all from making the adjustments after looking over your stats, equipment and environmental factors to see what modifiers are relevant. It seems that each roll will take a long time to adjudicate a final result, slowing down the game a good bit any time a roll is needed.

6 minutes ago, kaosoe said:

I am not a spokesperson for FFG so what I am saying is just my own extrapolation. At this point we are only speculating. The crux of my post was that GeneSys is a wonderful generic system, but might not have been the L5R system (as others have expressed leading up this beta). So rather than try to jam GeneSys into L5R, they chose to build from scratch.

For the first part of my argument, my suspicion is they wanted to start pumping out games soon so they can start seeing a return for their investment in to the L5R purchase. So rather than waiting for GeneSys to hit the shelves and determine if it was both stable and viable, they decided to with a new system. You are welcome to debate my points, but at this point we are working off of spec, so there's no point, and nothing of any substance to be gained.

I get what you're saying, my point was just that there is no math where developing two systems is more efficient than developing just one. If they want to optimize for the initial ROI and old fan conversion, then keep the old system and give it a once-over, as you do for any incremental edition release. If you want a new system, double down on Genesys. I can get behind both of those approaches. But this is the worst of both worlds and it is baffling.

And, anyway, if Genesys is a system that would have to be "jammed" anywhere, then it is a failure. But I suspect that is not the case, it's just fans of 90s fantasy heartbreaker RPG systems being innovation-averse.