Black Dawn... I am presently trying to work up an illustration for the Faerie Glade. I would like to run an option by you for the card's description to see if it is acceptable to you (or to others) and perhaps make it compatible with a notion I have for an alternative roll table card. It might be a bit much, but here goes...

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Faerie Glade

If you roll "safe" in the Forest, you may enter the glade. Trade 1 Object to draw a spell, or 1 Magic Object to draw 2 spells and keep 1. Leave all trades on this space.

To take anything left here, discard 1 Spell for an Object or 2 Spells for a Magic Object.
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Now here is a potential Forest replacement that could be used solo or in combination with the Faerie Glade

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Enchanted Forest

This replaces space instructions.
Roll 2 dice and add your Craft.
5 or less) Lost! Roll again next turn
6) Entangled! Miss a Turn
7) Cursed! The next player draws a Spell to cast upon you or discard.
8) Enchanted! Draw 1 Spell to upon yourself or discard.
9) Blessed! Gain a Craft.
10) Draw 1 Adventure Card.
11) Faerie Path! You may move 1 space.
12+) Safe

Hey JC,

You modification to the Faerie Glade sounds fine, and should be fun. I think your Enchanted Forest concept may be a bit too complicated, and Safe shouldn't be the "best" result. Here's a suggestion:

Roll 2 dice and add your Craft.

6 or less: Lost (miss a turn). [since all characters start with at least Craft 2, this can only happen with a roll of 4 or less]

7: Attacked by a Wood Wight, Craft 5

8: Forgetfulness: Discard 1 Spell OR 1 Object OR 1 Follower (They go to the Discard pile).

9: Cursed: You have -1 Craft and -1 Strength until the end of your next turn

10: Blessed: You have +1 Strength and +1 Craft until the end of your next turn

11: Draw one spell

12 / 13: Safe

14: Gain one Craft [all characters start with Craft of at least 2, so this is possible with double sixes]

15: Draw 2 spells

16+: Get an extra turn

The "forgetfulness" is an excellent notion!

The position and sometimes nature of other options doesn't work for me. The position of Gain 1 Craft is placed so that as one's Craft rises, one actually has a higher probability for a while to gain another free Craft in going back to the Forest. I don't care for Spells becoming so generally available at the Forest. My notion for spell use was based on the "enchanted / faerie" interpretation of that space. Though such a twisted use of spells is problematic, I've used similar with test groups and the result was generally fun.

I wanted to rig the range and probabilities so that the higher one's Craft:

1. the less likely one is to gain yet another bonus Craft freebie, and
2. the less likely one would run into deficits, and
3. all because one has grown more "crafty" and knows how to avoid the dangers.

And all of this combined with greater range of outcomes and less predictability. I still like random encounter from the Adventure deck vs. a standard enemy. More variety in encounter (less monotony, since we've all memorized that space). A potential card to keep (including for defeating an Enemy). And thereby more reason for adventurers to actually want to visit the Forest (which is usually just ignored).

Here's another take; see what you think. I tried to compensate for troubles with cards left on the Forest. I may still consider how to use Spells as if cast by the Enchanted Forest itself.

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Roll 2 dice and add your Craft:
3-6) Lost! Miss a turn.
7) Disoriented! Lose 1 Spell, Object, or Follower.
8) Backtrack! Roll again on your next turn.
9-10) Surprise! Draw 1 Adventure card. After the encounter, discard any card you cannot keep.
11) You find your way; gain 1 Craft.
12) Faerie Path! On your next move, roll an extra die and discard 1 die.
13+) Safe.
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And now... something of more interest to you... I hope. Let me know what needs adjustment, including if you don't care for the illustration.

This expansion has taken on a life of it's own and it's certainly been interesting to see other peoples ideas and ways that individual groups play Talisman. I'm anticipating the final version of the cards after a consensuse has been reached by the group and JC. Perhaps we'll be seeing them soon on Talisman Island.

The Faerie Glade card looks great. I think the illustration really captures the feel of Faeries and the Forest. The options are quite workable and will add some additional twists and strategy to game play.

Regarding size of the expansion cards: I vote for traditional cards also. Card storage and sleeves are deciding factor for me. Additional factor is also because we now have the inclusion of a Forest card and the traditional size will fit on that space.

I'm now looking forward to seeing a Crags card soon.

Okay, but I think notions for the Crags should wrap it up. We've gone a long way with this pack of cards. I think some are tried of the making and want to get to the playing. I'll try to pump out my Enchanted Forest, go back to B.D.'s Crags ideas, do a final draft of the card back, and then package it all in a ZIP for any of us still willing to review and report any errors. The package will include notions on methods for using the cards that started this topic; you have others to suggest, you can post them in here.

On that note, I want to make sure that all who contributed get credit in the included manual. You can opted for just a handle pulled off the forum or for full name... or both. Here's who I have so far (in no particular order). Let me know if I missed someone. If you prefer not to share your real name on the forum, go to www.nobledead.com and use the "Contact" form to send it to me (its easy than the message system here).

Contributors: BanthaFodder, Hinnyboy, Dth, jondee986, Jon New, Black Dawn, J.C. Hendee

This topic gets really interesting, I must say

In my opinion the board will get cluttered when we put all those space cards on it together with adventure cards on other spaces. here's my idea how to deal with it. Why not have a separate sheet(s) for those cards (view full picture for details)

This is of course just a quick example and requires a lot of improvement in terms of graphics, but it shows my idea nicely.

Of course, I'm aware that it is annoying to have additional sheet with cards sliding off from it but since most of you use sleeves, there is another idea

You can attach a special or glue to the sheet (there is a special thing like that to attach for instance CD's or DVD's to books ora magazines) and voila! You can pass the sheet to every player and easy replace the cards on it!

What do you guys think?

It's a nice idea for groups that want to use multiple SE cards on a space. The sleeves should probably be slightly oversized beyond those for just cards... for ease of change that is. Of course than means buying more sleeves, so maybe its not appealing.

I think most groups will probably use one per space. For example, both B.D. and I have notions for the Forest, and that space is smaller than the ones you have in the layout. But its unlikely most groups would want to put both of those cards into play for the Forest; a few might.

Even when using the random draw option, likely only two for a space may pop up in any game. Of course in the choose'n'play per player option, three might pop up depending the characters chosen and which SE card would benefit them the most.

Also, when more expansion boards come into play, some of these cards will be ignored in favor of those boards. The City is of course the prime example there. Most if not all the City cards could become moot for some groups.

OH AND I JUST REALIZED THERE'S AN ERROR ON A CARD. The Master at Arms should be for the Castle, not the Temple. I'll fix that.

Just something to bear in mind, but there was a "Master at Arms" Follower in Talisman: The Adventure. It could possibly lead to a name conflict at some point in the future.

Mind you, it shouldn't be too much of a leap seeing as we have two Nightmares!

Ah, good point, I'd forgotten about that one... though what a Master at (of) Arms is doing tagging along behind an adventurer beats me. Master at Arms is an official title for a position in a castle's hierarchy, but maybe a change of title to Captain of the Guard or something is in order? Any other suggestions?

Hey JC! The image for Faerie Glade is looking great. Two minor tweaks though: The word below the title current says "Temple" when it should say "Forest", and I prefer "You can't enter if Lost" to "You can only enter if "Safe". There is more chance of the former.

I think your idea for the Enchanted Forest is much improved, although if you don't want high Craft type gaining even more Craft, you might want to put the Craft gain even lower down the list, even as low as 6 or 7.

Black Dawn said:

Oh darn! I did it again. (I duplicate group layers when I start a new card.) I'll fix it.

Black Dawn said:

One would think so, but that's not the way the probabilities work. 7 is a 16.7% chance on 2D6, the highest probability in the range. With average attribute of 3, that makes 10 for the averaged highest rolled result. As Craft increases, to hit that 10 total, you have to roll lower. With a craft of 4, you have to roll 9, which is 13.8%. At Craft 5, you need an 8, or 11.1%.

So the higher your Craft, the less likely you will get another freebie. I bumped it to 11 just to give a little extra chance in the long run. That first free Craft is a 13.8% chance if starting at Craft 3; 2nd freebie (at Craft 4) would be 16.7%; and then it goes down from there based on how high one's Craft gets ... 13.8%, 11.1%, 8.3%, 5.5%, etc. Until one's Craft is so high there's no point to revisiting the Forest. In other words, what are you still doing in the Outer Region?!

Black Dawn said:

OOPS... forgot to address this part... been busy laying in a fold and lock wood floor in the office, so running back and forth alot.

Are you sure about this? I'll do it of course if you want, but... all other rolls but "safe" produce an encounter or "lost"; and typically throughout the board, you can only do one space generated encounter or option per a space.

To allow, per se, an adventurer to encounter a "Ranger guides you out, gain 1 Craft" and then go back in through the Forest to the Faerie Glade doesn't make much sense. Neither would being attacked by a Brigand and then going on for another encounter with the Faerie Glade (well, I suppose that's possible). "Safe" seems to be the only clean result that would give you chance in the same turn for encountering the Glade. (33.3% not counting use of a Fate point.)

And another card for B.D. I would like to suggest the following changes submitted for your approval. This card is based on your original Dragon's Nest.

I likes! Looks like fun to land on. Maybe #5 should be "If none are in play, gain 1 Strength", which essentially gets you 1 Strength either way, but you have to earn it if there's a dragon in play.

As to the Lost / Safe thing, I still like "not lost" because I think it would be frustrating to have a space expander that you can only visit 33% of the time you land on the space.

A few edits and a new card. I'll work on the final card back next and possibly one or two for the Crags. That'll be all for this first pack of Space Expanders, so please, no more new card concepts at this time; you can suggest additional revisions of current cards. Last will come a full archive with documentation for download and proofing by anyone interested.

Black Dawn said:

Sorry, I overlooked another of your comments. If you want, I'll change it back. If you post no comments in the next 24 hours, I will assume that's what I should do. For my group and the test groups I use, I know the original would have less appeal; they play more hardcore and are not into too many freebies. But the original card would appeal to most groups, especially those looking for speed of play. Here's why I rendered this option for you to look at...

As the card reads at present, on #5 you can get a Strength by fighting a dragon from the board because you take its trophy (almost all Dragons are Strength 7 or better). You also take the dragon out of reach of others, a tactical choice. NOTE: the other dragons fought here gain you no trophy, so no Strength; a free Strength for NOT summoning a Dragon seems contradictory.

In your original card, almost everyone would just take the Strength and forget about summoning a dragon. Most players looking for speed and the win vs the adventure of a "magical quest" are rather lazy; they don't really care about specialty cards like these that much. There's already plenty of freebies in the standard cards and boards. I've been seeing some reports of Strength and Craft for winning characters that bordered on the ludicrous.

Also note I suggested this card as a replacement for the Chasm, a rather boring and avoided space. If that's acceptable, then characters are already beefed up to be in the Middle Region. Whacking Dragons is probably not a big risk at that point, so again a free Strength seems a bit much... especially with the Temple nearby, where freebies are balanced with losses.

Let me know your counter thoughts... otherwise, I'll revert the card if you have not comments.

And the last card for this pack. You will notice I tweaked its mechanics a little. I also changed the title. Much as this one was taken from the Oriental / Eastern Dragon (Talisman 2E, 3E, 4ER), I agree with Jon New that we should not create excess confusion by duplicating a card title between cards of different decks, types, and/or subtypes (which is not the same as making a direct replacement for a standard Adventure card). See what you think...

The final Space Expander card back will be next, coming sometime tomorrow.

The card back is done a little early. Based on a few responses, the final is slightly darker and more saturated than the original, and map details just a hint softer. I may need to take a further look at the standard Talisman fixtures to make sure their tones suitably match standard card backs.

While we're at it, the final version of the Temple of Balance. I've chosen to go back to Dth/Dorian's dice mechanic combined with the results table from the 3d6 version. There is now choice in 1) how hard one prays (and the risk) along with 2) choice in the result, combined with 3) a more tempered set of results that is 4) semi-balanced against what is difficult to lose or gain throughout the game (hopefully).

Edit: I am talking about the Dragon's Den card in this post

Hmm, OK, of all the options you mentioned, I like the following best:

#5) Summon any Dragon on the board to this space; OR you are "Safe".

This option allows weaker Strength players 3 spots with no fights at all (including Lose a Turn), or you can still gain a trophy AND get all the stuff on the spot by killing a dragon.

I can see your point, and in general it works fine if a couple of things are ignored... and one problem remains that hasn't been addressed.

First, the instruction still says "Summon"... not "may summon"; it is a direct instruction, not a choice. If choice is put into it, "safe" is result, not a choice of action. For what you are after, it should read:

"You may summon 1 Dragon in the Land/play to Battle."

"To this space" is not needed. If an adventurer summons something, it comes to the adventurer's current location. "Safe" does not need to be listed; if the adventurer chooses not to summon, then safety is already implied.

Combat or Battle should be explicitly stated as standard game terms with distinguished meaning. Unlike the dragons in the Den, some dragon cards have both Strength and Craft. "Battle" implies that such must be fought by Strength. Combat implies fighting with either Craft or Strength; the particular card must be read to determine which.

If choice is used, a qualifying clause is needed. If an adventurer rolls a #5 and choose not to summon a dragon, then if it is standing on stuff and is not lost as in #3, why can't it take what is there since #6 allows such in contradiction to the opening instructions?

This why and how I came up with the alternative wording.

• if one or more dragons are in play, one MUST be summoned and fought to access any stuff on the space. If there is no stuff, it still must still be fought (too bad).
• if no dragons are in play, and stuff is just sitting there, then the stuff may be taken as implied in result #6.

Taking choice out of #5 and stating what happens by sense and logic vs just a forced ruling removes the contradiction and makes the card more appealing. One result (#6) allows a 16% chance of getting to the stuff without fighting. On a #5, there is a lesser chance (% unknown but less than 16.7%) of getting to the stuff without fighting IF there is no dragon in play in the whole Land (that would include all regions and "realms", meaning expansion boards). There aren't that many dragons in the base game, but with expansions, there are more.

There is still one other problem. If that summoned dragon is not defeated, what happens to it? By standard play, that dragon now remains on the Den's space. It must be faced and defeated before the Den can be encountered. This doesn't fit your reasoning of trying to keep things from getting to dangerous for low level characters (and another reason why I suggested the Chasm, as the Middle Region is acceptable for tough consequences).

It's up to you what you want, and I can only advise that the card isn't working the way you think it does. And I wasn't able to solve the final problem of the summon dragon card within the cards own mechanics - only justifying it through relocation. You're not alone in these problems. I had many such in my first rather large expansion, which is why it is now in a revision process (complicated by being translated into three other languages, supposedly).

I think we've discussed this all that we can. At this point, you need to tell me whether to use the original location (Crags) or the suggested location (Chasm), Then tell me one of the following:

1. Revert to the card's original content.
2. Use your revised wording inserted in the original content.
3. Use new content you will present.

A new scimitar for the Sheikh...

Rumour-Monger art adjustment; I wasn't able to find adequate pieces to make something from scratch. The patron was cut out, the scene separated into foreground and background detail, and the patron moved forward in the scene's perspective. Also general lighting effects to clarify and enhance detail.

Yay proper design debates! I see your point.

Let's do the following:

1) Change the location to the Chasm

2) Change the name to "Dragon Breeding Ground"

2) The card should "Replace the Chasm's current text"

3) roll 5 should read: "Safe OR You may summon any dragon in play to battle."

Makes the Chasm somewhere you might actually want to land.

The expansion's looking good!

And here we are! I had to change one thing... the title... but only because I couldn't even get "the breeding grounds" into the banner without squeezing it too much. In addition, I'm presenting three other cards which I held back until last. I'm uncertain about these, and obviously they wouldn't be used in a "choice" option for playing SE cards on the board. But they might add a few surprises for a "random draw" option. Brief instructions concerning placement would be in the manual, since these are for spaces with multiple occurrences on the board.

I will now proceed to prepping the included manual and then the archive for download and review.