As above. I've been trying it over and over, and I'm just...not digging it. The problem is that it is priced similarly to two Gozers, and in comparison it's not doing as well. Even with the obvious upgrades - flight controllers and expanded hangars - it STILL seems to not be as effective.

And I'm not sure why. Comparing those builds - QF+EH+FC vs 2xGozer+EH...

• QF has a bigger alpha strike - one-turn triggering of up to 6 squadrons with a banked command
• QF makes a better alpha strike - boosting each anti-fighter attack by a blue dice
• QF actually has respectable firepower on its own, allowing it to participate in the main battle

Against that, the pair-o'-Gozers have only a few points that feel less impactful:

• Presuming banked commanders, they can push more squadrons all told (8 vs 6)
• As there are more ships, it means more activations - one more setup placement and one more activation per turn, specifically
• EDIT: Okay, and 'scatter', the arguably-best-defense token

The flight controllers, alone, should push this comparison in favor of the QF, but...geeez, game after game, I'm just finding the pair of Gozers altogether more solid. I mean, I know the whole 'activation counts are important' thing, but...THAT important?? Has anyone found a build where the QF works well enough to offset the apparently-crippling loss of an activation vs pair-o'-Gozers? Or does the difference come down to defense tokens, alone? (I suppose, in matches I've fielded the ships, the really striking thing about the Quasar Fire is how fragile it is. Maybe if it could easily take ECM to protect its brace or something...or possibly better if it had a pair of them?)

Tried it, didn't really like it. Gave up. Will try again later. That's about as far as I've gotten

16 minutes ago, xanderf said:

As above. I've been trying it over and over, and I'm just...not digging it. The problem is that it is priced similarly to two Gozers, and in comparison it's not doing as well. Even with the obvious upgrades - flight controllers and expanded hangars - it STILL seems to not be as effective.

And I'm not sure why. Comparing those builds - QF+EH+FC vs 2xGozer+EH...

• QF has a bigger alpha strike - one-turn triggering of up to 6 squadrons with a banked command
• QF makes a better alpha strike - boosting each anti-fighter attack by a blue dice
• QF actually has respectable firepower on its own, allowing it to participate in the main battle

Against that, the pair-o'-Gozers have only a few points that feel less impactful:

• Presuming banked commanders, they can push more squadrons all told (8 vs 6)
• As there are more ships, it means more activations - one more setup placement and one more activation per turn, specifically
• EDIT: Okay, and 'scatter', the arguably-best-defense token

The flight controllers, alone, should push this comparison in favor of the QF, but...geeez, game after game, I'm just finding the pair of Gozers altogether more solid. I mean, I know the whole 'activation counts are important' thing, but...THAT important?? Has anyone found a build where the QF works well enough to offset the apparently-crippling loss of an activation vs pair-o'-Gozers? Or does the difference come down to defense tokens, alone? (I suppose, in matches I've fielded the ships, the really striking thing about the Quasar Fire is how fragile it is. Maybe if it could easily take ECM to protect its brace or something...or possibly better if it had a pair of them?)

My friend used a combo of QF+Gozy's against me in a CC battle, and my squads with escort, got quickly wiped out by the mass attacks of TIE Interceptors/Defenders, so my bombers got screeded in the following round.

So when played well the QF is very deadly.

In general I prefer Boosted Comms on the Quasar if I need to choose between that and Expanded Hangar Bays. Keeps it relevant for longer and lets it regularly get the full muscle from Squadrons 4. Also lets it stay safely out of the fight if going in would be suicide. If you've got the spare points on a Quasar-I, of course, you can always go for both.

I also find the argument for squadron tokens on the Gozantis to be iffy. It can work out all right sometimes but in general mine are holding on to nav tokens so they can change speed when it will save their sorry hides. Given they don't have much in the way of squadron-booster upgrades where applying the benefit more widely is stronger, I don't generally find Expanded Hangar Bays to be a great investment on them for their cost (increases their points cost by 22%), but that's up to you, of course.

The Flight Controllers and the sweet titles are the main selling points for Quasars over Gozantis for me. If you're not using a title, that's where I'd start (even just the Pursuant and a Skilled First Officer together can be quite good). If you're not using enough fighters, that could also complicate things. There's an argument to be made for TIE Bombers and the Quasar-II with Ruthless Strategists but I haven't used that too much myself (seen/played against others doing so and it seemed okay).

Nose.

Squallin'.

Punch.

Question clarification. Is this with or without relay?

4 minutes ago, Ginkapo said:

Question clarification. Is this with or without relay?

Either - I'm still a bit indifferent on relay. It's definitely powerful, with the right objectives, but it's also really expensive. Obviously it pairs a bit better with the Gozers, though, given how much it favors a larger number of low-count squadrons...you only need 2 Lambdas, after all, to push the full 8 squadrons a pair of Gozers can manage, as they are only activating 4 at a time - where you need 3 Lambdas for a full alpha off a QF. But it's still a lot of points to spend on barely-combat-viable squadrons.

It really seems to come down to how you value having a single activation with lots of squad activations at once (Quasar) or your squad ball activated between two ships and getting an extra ship activation (Gozantis).

I personally have had a great time using the Quasar whenever I field it and felt it was worth its points. Activating six squadrons a turn (thanks to Comms Net Gozanti feeding it the squadron token) with Flight Controllers just feels like it hits a lot harder than forcing myself to split the squadron alpha strike between two Gozanti activations and only activating 4 at a time.

It also tends to draw fire away from my more dangerous ship (usually a Star Destroyer) because my opponent doesn't want me to keep using the Quasar for squadron activations for long.

I've been using one in the Vassal Tourney, and liking it well enough. My list:

ISD2 - Sloane, Avenger, Gunnery Teams, Quad Battery Turrets, Leading Shots, Skilled First Officer, ECM
QF1 - Flight Controllers, Expanded Hanger Bay, Skilled First Officer
Gozanti - Comms Net

Soontir, Ciena, Howlrunner, Mauler, Valen, Saber, TIE Interceptor x3

The QF gives you the absolutely terrifying 6x Turbo-Interceptor alpha strike, while still being able to build your ISD as a battleship instead of a supercarrier. There is no comparison at all between 2+2 (or even 3+3) interceptors launched from a pair of Gozantis and 6 at once launched from an FC QF.

38 minutes ago, Snipafist said:

In general I prefer Boosted Comms on the Quasar

I definitely agree with this though. This is the one change I've since made to my list above: dropped an SFO to get Boosted Comms on the Quasar. BC is critical to keeping it out of danger. And Relay is not the answer in this case: the QF's biggest strength is its 6-squadron activations, and it is in no way worth 45 points of Lambdas to facilitate those from Relay range.

14 minutes ago, Ardaedhel said:

I've been using one in the Vassal Tourney, and liking it well enough. My list:

ISD2 - Sloane, Avenger, Gunnery Teams, Quad Battery Turrets, Leading Shots, Skilled First Officer, ECM
QF1 - Flight Controllers, Expanded Hanger Bay, Skilled First Officer
Gozanti - Comms Net

Soontir, Ciena, Howlrunner, Mauler, Valen, Saber, TIE Interceptor x3

The QF gives you the absolutely terrifying 6x Turbo-Interceptor alpha strike, while still being able to build your ISD as a battleship instead of a supercarrier. There is no comparison at all between 2+2 (or even 3+3) interceptors launched from a pair of Gozantis and 6 at once launched from an FC QF.

I definitely agree with this though. This is the one change I've since made to my list above: dropped an SFO to get Boosted Comms on the Quasar. BC is critical to keeping it out of danger. And Relay is not the answer in this case: the QF's biggest strength is its 6-squadron activations, and it is in no way worth 45 points of Lambdas to facilitate those from Relay range.

My own Vassal Autumn Tournament list is broadly similar (subtle changes on the I-2, Defenders instead of those squishy Interceptors), and I have to agree, the ability of this alpha strike to cause pain and damage in obscene amounts absolutely is worth the upgrade cost for the Quasar over two Gozantis. My QF is fitted with FC, EHB, BC, and Pursuant, and the Gozanti mostly exists to support the QF in token shenanigans. It also greatly simplifies the command dial setup for the Star Destroyer and lets it only worry about being a carrier after the QF is dead, which can be a huge advantage to having Nav/Repair/CF dials and still Sloane squadron support before the ISD opens fire.

TL:DR @Ardaedhel stole my thunder, with inferior squadrons

People keep saying alpha strike. Now what do we mean by alpga strike?

A single push of a high number of squads once.

Or

A large push of squads every single turn.

I ask because boosted comms lets you push squads turn after turn, whereas, expanded hanger bays without comms lets you do it once.

Very different entities. EHB Gozanti can do a single alpha strike. Quasar can pubish turn after turn.

12 minutes ago, Ginkapo said:

People keep saying alpha strike. Now what do we mean by alpga strike?

A single push of a high number of squads once.

Or

A large push of squads every single turn.

I ask because boosted comms lets you push squads turn after turn, whereas, expanded hanger bays without comms lets you do it once.

Very different entities. EHB Gozanti can do a single alpha strike. Quasar can pubish turn after turn.

Alpha Strikes are generally considered only the first Initial Impact of one turn, one activation. The Alpha Strike itself.

In which the EHB performs "Adequately", but the Quasar does "Bigger".

The Alpha Strike is supposed to be the solution to MAD. The First Strike. Hit them hard enough that they have nothing to respond with, so follow-up strikes and commands are effectively irrelevent.

With an Alpha in that definition, everything is about how many you can put downrange with no comeback.

In which becomes 4 for an EHB Gozanti, and becomes 6 for an EHB Quasar.

When the Quasar is also able to pack the flight controlelrs to make the Alpha strike more effective, then you have that influence too...

IN EFFECT.

If you're concerned or planning with how you FOLLOW UP your Alpha Strike. You havn't got the best Alpha strike in that way of thinking. An Alpha strike is the answer to and of itself. If you're planning anything else, you are accepting your Alpha Strike needs a Beta Strike.

Again, purely my distinction and definition flavoured by many years of MAD and SAC based training books

Alpha Strike = Everything you have, All at Once, no chance for reprisal or care of secondary strikes.

Pretty much what Dras said.

When I say "alpha strike" in the general sense I'm talking about all the "striking" I can do in one activation window--specifically, between one of my adversary's response opportunities and the next.

In this particular case, I'm talking about a strong squadron-on-squadron attack in the space of one ship activation, in the time between when my opponent was last able to respond offensively to my squadron activations, and the time that he will next be able to do so, with the goal of hitting so hard and so fast that, by the time he has the opportunity to respond, he has lost the capability to respond.

From an efficiency standpoint, it's far better to do your activations all at once rather than piecemeal - especially if your plan is to jump their fighters first and deal damage.

But shouldn't you have linked to your own article about it, @Snipafist?

http://cannotgetyourshipout.blogspot.com/2017/08/imperial-ship-review-quasar-fire.html

4 minutes ago, iamfanboy said:

From an efficiency standpoint, it's far better to do your activations all at once rather than piecemeal - especially if your plan is to jump their fighters first and deal damage.

But shouldn't you have linked to your own article about it, @Snipafist?

http://cannotgetyourshipout.blogspot.com/2017/08/imperial-ship-review-quasar-fire.html

I wrestle with linking to the blog too much, actually. On one hand, @geek19 and I have spent literally hundreds of hours writing our thoughts down on all manner of Armada subjects and it feels reasonable to point others to those thoughts when it's relevant. On the other hand, I don't want to be that guy who's always responding with "read my blog!", haha. Thanks, though!

I would think that it's going to come into its own when the Kuat and Cymoon show up. You go even harder into Imping than before. Quasar push fighters, ISD smash ships, who need ship do both? Dumb Rebel do, hurr hurr hurr!

In this example I assume the Imperial player is a caveman, haha

The Quasar-Fire is a great rebel squadron pusher... oh, wait...

I've used mine in a few home games with a Rebel fleet commanded by Leia. Seven X-wings with Flight Controllers, Boosted Comms, and Expanded Hangar Bay is nothing to sneeze at. Now I know why they were hesitant to include a Rebel version in the initial release. Coupled with a GR-75 carrying Toryn Farr and Bomber Command, you end up with a devastating force that can chew through enemy fighters and ships alike.

3 hours ago, RyonOlson said:

The Quasar-Fire is a great rebel squadron pusher... oh, wait...

I've used mine in a few home games with a Rebel fleet commanded by Leia. Seven X-wings with Flight Controllers, Boosted Comms, and Expanded Hangar Bay is nothing to sneeze at. Now I know why they were hesitant to include a Rebel version in the initial release. Coupled with a GR-75 carrying Toryn Farr and Bomber Command, you end up with a devastating force that can chew through enemy fighters and ships alike.

Seven sounds like a magic trick.

7 hours ago, Ardaedhel said:

Pretty much what Dras said.

When I say "alpha strike" in the general sense I'm talking about all the "striking" I can do in one activation window--specifically, between one of my adversary's response opportunities and the next.

In this particular case, I'm talking about a strong squadron-on-squadron attack in the space of one ship activation, in the time between when my opponent was last able to respond offensively to my squadron activations, and the time that he will next be able to do so, with the goal of hitting so hard and so fast that, by the time he has the opportunity to respond, he has lost the capability to respond.

This isnt quite what Dras said. Dras said once per game. You are keeping it open to allow multiple alpha strikes per game.

10 minutes ago, Ginkapo said:

This isnt quite what Dras said. Dras said once per game. You are keeping it open to allow multiple alpha strikes per game.

Yes. That's why I said "pretty much" and went on to describe how my interpretation differs instead of leaving it at that.

In practice, it's usually going to be once per game, because if you did it right you don't need to do it again. After that it's just about keeping up the pressure with high throughput until you've finished winning the squadron game; which, while large single activation counts are still very helpful in doing so to stay one step ahead, is no longer an alpha strike because you've already committed and been subjected to reprisal. At that point you're just talking about the general case of winning the squadron game--wherein there is a case to be made for the strict cost-efficiency of flotilla-activated squadrons--rather than the special case of the alpha strike, which is where the Quasar gets its best value.

14 hours ago, xanderf said:

As above. I've been trying it over and over, and I'm just...not digging it. The problem is that it is priced similarly to two Gozers, and in comparison it's not doing as well. Even with the obvious upgrades - flight controllers and expanded hangars - it STILL seems to not be as effective.

And I'm not sure why. Comparing those builds - QF+EH+FC vs 2xGozer+EH...

• QF has a bigger alpha strike - one-turn triggering of up to 6 squadrons with a banked command
• QF makes a better alpha strike - boosting each anti-fighter attack by a blue dice
• QF actually has respectable firepower on its own, allowing it to participate in the main battle

Against that, the pair-o'-Gozers have only a few points that feel less impactful:

• Presuming banked commanders, they can push more squadrons all told (8 vs 6)
• As there are more ships, it means more activations - one more setup placement and one more activation per turn, specifically
• EDIT: Okay, and 'scatter', the arguably-best-defense token

The flight controllers, alone, should push this comparison in favor of the QF, but...geeez, game after game, I'm just finding the pair of Gozers altogether more solid. I mean, I know the whole 'activation counts are important' thing, but...THAT important?? Has anyone found a build where the QF works well enough to offset the apparently-crippling loss of an activation vs pair-o'-Gozers? Or does the difference come down to defense tokens, alone? (I suppose, in matches I've fielded the ships, the really striking thing about the Quasar Fire is how fragile it is. Maybe if it could easily take ECM to protect its brace or something...or possibly better if it had a pair of them?)

Our local meta is basically flooded with them. The typical build is 2 VSD IIs with GT, LS, QBT, and Dcaps and a quasar I pushing 4-8 squads (maybe a goz for activations). They keep the quasar hidden carefully behind the death area of the 2 vics... With motti... it can really tear a fleet up... at long range they're hitting you with 4 blue 4 red (up to 4 times depending on how many ships you have in range) If you spend too long trying to knock out the quasar the vics will kill you, if you focus out the vics they alpha the absolute **** out of you with squads.

Right now we have 3 players running very similar versions of this fleet, and each is a tough go.

I think 34 blue dice with 5 rerolls is better than anything a pair of gozanti can put out. 4 Interceptors with Howlrunner and Dengar (=80 points) is the ULTIMATE anti squadron machine and the quasar allows you to pull that off for just 65 points (Quasar I with EHB and Flight Controllers). Before the Quasar only the ISD could do that, with the cheaper variant costing 121 points (ISD I with EHB and Flight Controllers).

Furthermore, the best idea is to use them both anyway. I have had 3 games with my Sloane Fleet (Quasar II, Vic II, 2x Gozanti Cruisers) and won all 3 of them very clearly.

Beeing able to activate up to 12 squadrons (with tokens) with the quasar and the two gozantis leaves me enough room in this fleet for my VIC II to function as a pure battleship.

Here's my fleet:

398 points

Vic II (85)

-Admiral Sloane (24)

-Wing Commander (6)

-Gunnery Team (7)

-Disposable Capacitor (3)

-MS-1 Ion Cannons (2)

-Quad Battery Turrets (5)

=132 points

Quasarfire II (61)

-Commander Aresko (7)

-Ruthless Strategists (4)

-Flight Controllers (6)

- Expanded Hangar Bays (5)

-Squall Title (3)

=86 points

2x Gozanti Cruisers

=46 points

Squadrons:

-Howlrunner (16)

-Black Squadron (9)

-8x TIE Fighter (64)

-3x Lambda Shuttle (45)

=134 points of fighters

Objectices:

-Salvage Run

-Fighter Ambush

-Most Wanted

I think the idea of this fleet is pretty obvious, pick second player if the opponent is not flying a MC30c and either get 80 free victory points, abuse most wanted or begin alpha strike on turn 1 with relay 6. Activate a qozanti first though if possible, for aresko to trigger.

The whole idea of this fleet was "Can i make 3 lambdas work?" and i think i did. The Wing Commander and MS-1 Ion Cannons on the Vic II might better be replaced by Tua/ECM and Leading Shots, but it wanted to try out something different and i found the option to activate the Vic II first instead of the Quasar pretty useful. For most of the time i would just spam Concentrate Fire Commands on the Vic II and repairs on turn 5 and 6, but with the Wing Commander you have a nice option to switch to carrier duty if your quasar is suddenly destroyed or you when you REALLY need to shut down those annoying hacker tools/enginge techs/etc with your MS-1s while still not loosing out on a moderately effective alpha strike.

Had great success with this fleet and mostly due to the Quasar, so thats my suggestion for using this ship. Tell me what you think about it!

Gozantis can't deliver squadron auto damage at long range with a red die and ruthless strategists....