2 hours ago, AllWingsStandyingBy said:

I always build my list assuming perfect dice.

Honestly, you don't really need to assume perfect dice in this case. Just assume average dice with the TL and chips (or deadeye focus and chips). You can expect to have 4 hits/crits on each harpoon if you roll average.

1 hour ago, kris40k said:

Have you considered the use of Deadeye or Expertise in your concussion v harpoon comparison?

Edit: Guessing focus token calc would answer Expertise already...

Just ran the calc again. Still works out in favor of Harpoon. I guess it would work out in favor of Concussion on a ship with both Deadeye and Recon Specialist, but just barely, so not really worth losing the AOE upside potential.

It makes sense, though. A either focus token or a full TL reroll is just statistically better on 4 dice than converting one blank to a hit.

I'm actually really annoyed at this kind of power creep. It isn't just that it has an incredibly confusing condition, which requires odd language to establish when in the order it is applied, so that it won't trigger itself (if FFG even accomplished that properly...). But on top of the potential confusion, it also is just statistically better than the "vanilla" missile at the same points cost under nearly every situation.

1 hour ago, rafcpl6868 said:

Why don't we just FAQ scum out of the game so it can be fun again?

You do know I was being sarcastic, hence the emote " "

WTF Bug

Holy freakin tripple post bug batman

Re harpoon v other missiles:

There is a trade-off in harpooned ships blowing up in your face

Need on table time to determine how often that happens, though

The condition itself isn't that complex. I'm sure table time will make it intuitive fairly quickly. The wording's just a tad wonky to get around DTF and double triggering the explosion

1 hour ago, ficklegreendice said:

Re harpoon v other missiles:

There is a trade-off in harpooned ships blowing up in your face

Need on table time to determine how often that happens, though.

THANK YOU. No one is talking about that part of it!

Indeed. It might - or might not - work in practice, but I find myself thinking "thank you for the free Deadman's Switch on my damaged ship".

If you can trigger the harpoon immediately, it's going to be nasty (guidance chipped Harpoon missiles en masse, or mangler cannons) but if you just leave it until such time as it goes off 'normally' then it might work against you...

One or 2 harpoons in a list will be good. But to get a triple harpoon list is going to require some list sacrifice that *probably* balances out that one trick pony. the High PS imp aces already sacrifice a lot to get the 3 cruise missiles into the list, and if you want harpoons you have to cut somewhere to get those points. And scurrgs with harpoons and deadeye get either extras, abt or crew. Kfighters are probably the best place for them, even a triple kfighter list is just that, 15 health behind 2 agility and probably a middling ps. Jumpmasters, kfighters are not.

1 hour ago, SmittLoaf said:

One or 2 harpoons in a list will be good. But to get a triple harpoon list is going to require some list sacrifice that *probably* balances out that one trick pony. the High PS imp aces already sacrifice a lot to get the 3 cruise missiles into the list, and if you want harpoons you have to cut somewhere to get those points. And scurrgs with harpoons and deadeye get either extras, abt or crew. Kfighters are probably the best place for them, even a triple kfighter list is just that, 15 health behind 2 agility and probably a middling ps. Jumpmasters, kfighters are not.

We dont know how the Tie Bomber FO will look. But assuming it's an improved version of the regular bomber it might actually be the perfect platform for those missiles in a "triple of" build.

3 minutes ago, Thormind said:

We dont know how the Tie Bomber FO will look. But assuming it's an improved version of the regular bomber it might actually be the perfect platform for those missiles in a "triple of" build.

That's fair. but we really don't have a time frame for when that will enter the game. Wave 12 wise even, the kimogila or gunboat may also be solid platforms for running 3 of. but we probably dont have enough information yet.

13 hours ago, rafcpl6868 said:

Why don't we just FAQ scum out of the game so it can be fun again?

Armada style! Split up Bounty Hunterz (c) to Empire and the odd SWG Scummies to Rebs. Quadjumpah goes to rebs. Scurrg is already there, as are Y-wings, Z-95s HWKs. Starvipers belong with the Imps, Fang fighters might be rebs?

The kicked is that Scum becomes a subfaction in both main factions, to at least maintain some factional identity.

then we go whole hog into Corperate Sector Authority! Sub fac for Imps, Marauder corvettes, IRD fighters, stuff like that.

Will it kill scum and rebels? Will this be amazing on Bombers and Punishers?

Here's a nice list:

Cutlass Sqd Pilot: FCS, EM, Harpoons (x2), Chips

I fit three of them in for 99 points.

13 hours ago, ficklegreendice said:

Re harpoon v other missiles:

There is a trade-off in harpooned ships blowing up in your face

Need on table time to determine how often that happens, though

The condition itself isn't that complex. I'm sure table time will make it intuitive fairly quickly. The wording's just a tad wonky to get around DTF and double triggering the explosion

That's very fair.

I still wish they were a little "worse" however. They have a potentially strong on-hit effect, they didn't also need to have a stronger initial hit than Concussion Missiles at the same points cost. If they spend the target lock to fire, I'd say they were fine.

21 hours ago, AllWingsStandyingBy said:

Ah, I didn't recall that you kept the lock with Harpoon Missiles . Yes, that's clear power creep over the classic missiles.

Actually no. Literally the only missiles that require you spend your TL are Assault and Concussion, all the others let you keep it and those that fire off of focus let you keep that as well.

1 minute ago, Princezilla said:

Actually no. Literally the only missiles that require you spend your TL are Assault and Concussion, all the others let you keep it and those that fire off of focus let you keep that as well.

Assault, Concussion, and Cluster Missiles all spend target locks, as do all secondary weapon Torpedoes: Proton, Plasma, Ion, Flechette, and Advanced Proton. Prior to Cruise Missiles, the ones which didn't spend Target Locks were Homing Missiles (at 5 points, so they had a premium cost over other Concussions), Proton Rockets (which were only good on a tiny number of ships) and missiles which had "on hit" effects rather than dealing full dice damage. Ion Pulse, Advanced Homing, and S-Thread Tracers, for example.

Harpoon Missiles are straight up power creep and anybody pretending that the condition is even a little bit hard to trigger via list-building is kidding themselves

Edit: They'd be fine at 5 points. They're a blend of Homing and Assault Missiles and should be priced accordingly. Them being 4 is ridiculous.

4 hours ago, theBitterFig said:

Assault, Concussion, and Cluster Missiles all spend target locks, as do all secondary weapon Torpedoes: Proton, Plasma, Ion, Flechette, and Advanced Proton. Prior to Cruise Missiles, the ones which didn't spend Target Locks were Homing Missiles (at 5 points, so they had a premium cost over other Concussions), Proton Rockets (which were only good on a tiny number of ships) and missiles which had "on hit" effects rather than dealing full dice damage. Ion Pulse, Advanced Homing, and S-Thread Tracers, for example.

I forgot Clusters but no one is talking about torpedos which all have always required spending TLs for and still do. Also prockets are good on most things worth taking missiles. You are discounted over 60% of all cards capable of being put into the slot in order to try and make that point lol.

It's also really hard to argue power creep on a slot that sees so little use dispite being one of the most widespread, assault missiles haven't seen use since TIE swarms dominated the meta and homing missiles were used on like three extremely niche pilots.

It's probably going to delete fsr variants and give both lowrick and biggs a hard time. May give imps a few new tricks, nothing too spectacular though.

rebels have almost moved on to nym+ and miranda+ lists already anyway so it's not like it's going to end the faction........

21 hours ago, Marinealver said:

You do know I was being sarcastic, hence the emote " "

I'm not. I hate the Scum faction. It sucks.

Mostly worried about the impact on Jess. I think I’ll have to switch to Thane.

2 hours ago, BlodVargarna said:

I'm not. I hate the Scum faction. It sucks.

I got just the game for you.

https://www.fantasyflightgames.com/en/products/star-wars-armada/

No Scum allowed

9 types of missiles? Not counting Refit for A-wings of course.

There’s 8 Torpedoes, 3 of which are some weird things like EM, Bomb slots and actions(!). So like double the variety of missiles, desire Proton Torpedoes being the king badass of warheads, killing two death stArs and a starkiller base. (YeAh, the Falcon fired concussion missiles into the DSII reactor but Wedge shot the **** outta that power regulator on the north tower, ya mutha FAQers!)

15 hours ago, Princezilla said:

It's also really hard to argue power creep on a slot that sees so little use dispite being one of the most widespread

Miranda with Concussion Missiles is a rather popular build these days, I wouldn't call that "little use".

Personally, I'd be fine with there being a "better" Assault Missiles. The Harpooned! Condition is, well, conditional. It's possible it never triggers, and the missile is just the initial damage. My issue with Harpoon is that they're also a "better" Concussion Missiles, too. @Magnus Grendel is right that the Deadman's Switch effect could be a bigger drawback on the actual table than it seems on paper. However, I still think they're either a point undercosted, or they ought to spend the target lock. A 4-point Assault Missiles which doesn't necessarily explode seems incredibly fair to me. Alternately, a 5-point alternative to Homing Missiles which doesn't obviate Evade tokens but can explode in AOE seems entirely fair, better against some lists, worse against others.

To that end, Plasma Torpedoes seem exactly right. Compared to Proton Torpedoes, they do less damage on the initial shot when firing with just the TL and GC, but with the potential to make that damage back with the on-hit effect. That seems right for a 1-point discount. It's less consistent on a single action, but with higher potential in the right build or against the right targets. Harpoon Missiles ought to have been the same way: better in the right conditions, but doing less damage on the initial dice roll. Concussion Missiles do nothing but damage to a single target. Harpoon shouldn't be better than them at this narrow role.

Almost forgot Prockets. There is a small number of ships they're any good on (A-Wings, TIE Advanced, TIE Advanced Prototypes, and maybe Scyks) and many of those are particularly bad ships (Scyks and generic TAPs in particular). Maybe there was a time before I started playing where Proton Rocket Z-95s or TIE Bombers were very popular. If so, well, I'll stand corrected.

On 10/3/2017 at 1:30 PM, Princezilla said:

Actually no. Literally the only missiles that require you spend your TL are Assault and Concussion, all the others let you keep it and those that fire off of focus let you keep that as well.

It's not only keeping the TL that makes Harpoon power creep. But that on-top of all of its other perks make it a clear front-runner missile.