So despite some of the more intelligent threads I've read about Hammerheads I've decided to try my luck with using the HH as a FC platform. I ran a preliminary test last week against one of the many twin Victory/quasar+squads lists that are beginning to crowd my meta. The results, of course, were predictably bad. However, based on what I saw, I don't think HHs should be discounted as a viable platform for FCs, I think they just need a pinch of Jank to work right.

The biggest issue I ran into with my test fleet, was my rolls, they were abhorrent. In earnest, after easily 200+ games I can state I have NEVER had rolls this bad. Yavaris activating 3 x-wings and making 3 hits between 6 attacks, I almost walked away from the table.

Rolls aside, I still see the potential a fleet like this could have. After some thought, I decided to scrap the pelta I added to give my squads speed 4, as I found speed 3 was sufficient to get where I needed, and added a second FC HH platform. In my original build I had tried to shave points and add more potential ship damage by using y-wings and norra in my squadron ball. I decided that between BCC and Yarvaris, I should be able to make reds do enough ship damage to be a threat and scrapped those for more x-wings.

The hope for this revised list is use Toyrn, FCs, and Yavaris to turn my squad ball into a potentially devastating AA flatform, that can switch to bombing runs after clearing squads. I figure with Toryn, the VCX's activating through Yavaris would be the same as 6 ties alpha striking a target, then with 2 activations of 3 x-wings with FCs and toryn, they should hit almost as strong as Tie/int. Ultimately, I'm banking on the vcx/x-wings higher hull to make them a more sustainable AA then the standard tie warm I see in my meta.

The Joker laughs at his own jokes
Author: Darth Sanguis

Faction: Rebel Alliance
Points: 395/400

Commander: Leia Organa

Assault Objective: Precision Strike
Defense Objective: Fleet Ambush
Navigation Objective: Superior Positions

[ flagship ] Nebulon-B Escort Frigate (57 points)
- Leia Organa ( 38 points)
- Yavaris ( 5 points)
= 100 total ship cost

Hammerhead Torpedo Corvette (36 points)
- Flight Controllers ( 6 points)
- Expanded Hangar Bay ( 5 points)
= 47 total ship cost

Hammerhead Torpedo Corvette (36 points)
- Flight Controllers ( 6 points)
- Expanded Hangar Bay ( 5 points)
= 47 total ship cost

GR-75 Medium Transports (18 points)
- Bomber Command Center ( 8 points)
= 26 total ship cost

GR-75 Medium Transports (18 points)
- Slicer Tools ( 7 points)
= 25 total ship cost

GR-75 Medium Transports (18 points)
- Bright Hope ( 2 points)
- Toryn Farr ( 7 points)
= 27 total ship cost

3 VCX-100 Freighters ( 45 points)
6 X-Wing Squadrons ( 78 points)

I dont know... seems like a lot of investment in squads for a rather uninspiring CAP.

I too have played some with Leia FC HH and i found it quite fun! I got my butt kicked when I played them like combat ships though. I ended upou playing it like Tokras 8 gozanti fleet. The squads need to be the threat, not the ships. The ships are just a leg up on gozantis because they actually pose a credible threat if your opponent closes on them.

If you can get Xwings to work, then I think thats great. But I just cant get the ship damage out of them that I want.

4 hours ago, BrobaFett said:

I dont know... seems like a lot of investment in squads for a rather uninspiring CAP.

I too have played some with Leia FC HH and i found it quite fun! I got my butt kicked when I played them like combat ships though. I ended upou playing it like Tokras 8 gozanti fleet. The squads need to be the threat, not the ships. The ships are just a leg up on gozantis because they actually pose a credible threat if your opponent closes on them.

If you can get Xwings to work, then I think thats great. But I just cant get the ship damage out of them that I want.

I've been doing practice rolls with them all week (on the dice app), the nice thing is if I can keep tiryn and BCC in range, I pretty much always have a reroll, even the vcxs add to the pool... (practice rolls had me at 8-14 damage a turn)

On 2.10.2017 at 6:53 PM, Darth Sanguis said:

[ flagship ] Nebulon-B Escort Frigate (57 points)
- Leia Organa ( 38 points)
- Yavaris ( 5 points)
= 100 total ship cost

I would never use a Yavaris without a Fighter Coordination Team and Flight Commander. These two just to well with it. To be able to get the squadrons into position for the double attack is just great.

And i really dont thing that Hammerhead are the best squadron carrier for a Flight Controller and Hangar Bays. This seems so wasted. 2x 11 points just to activate 4 squadrons (yes, i know, 6 with tokens)? Sure, each with one extra blue dice, but X-Wings have already 4.
I can think of better cards to burn 22 points . And there is one part that is even worse. The Hammerhead are wasted as well, because they (normaly) hide away from the combat to do their squadron commands. Instead of one Hammerhead and the 4 upgrades on these two you could as well add two more Transports, and have still a lot of points for something else (the 22 from the upgrades to be correct). You will have more ships, be able to activate more squadrons, and the two transports are harder to kill than one Hammerhead.

The only true problem is the pure lack of combat ships. The Yavaris want to hide. The Hammerhead want to hide, the Transports want to hide. The only true damage are the 6 X-Wings with a red die and one reroll (if the Bomber Command Center stays alive long enough).
I just see a lack of damage in this list.

And 8-14 damage? From 6 X-Wings with 1 reroll and 3 VCX with one reroll? That is really high gambled. I would say its an average of 8,25 damage from these 9 attacks. 8 Damage is already on the high side of it. If you are doing 14 damage from these 9 attacks, it means that you roll at least 5 double hits (out of 6 X-Wings....). I really doubt this will be the norm .

Edit: i know you are calculating double attacks with the Yavaris, but do not do this without the FC and FCT. It might fail to often.

5 hours ago, BrobaFett said:

I dont know... seems like a lot of investment in squads for a rather uninspiring CAP.

I too have played some with Leia FC HH and i found it quite fun! I got my butt kicked when I played them like combat ships though. I ended upou playing it like Tokras 8 gozanti fleet. The squads need to be the threat, not the ships. The ships are just a leg up on gozantis because they actually pose a credible threat if your opponent closes on them.

If you can get Xwings to work, then I think thats great. But I just cant get the ship damage out of them that I want.

There are two major difference between this list and mine.

Nerfed Rhymer and nerfed Bomber Command Center. I had 3 BCC, giving me 3 rerolls. And i had Rhymer, for the insane Bomber range.

8 minutes ago, Tokra said:

I would never use a Yavaris without a Fighter Coordination Team and Flight Commander. These two just to well with it. To be able to get the squadrons into position for the double attack is just great.

And i really dont thing that Hammerhead are the best squadron carrier for a Flight Controller and Hangar Bays. This seems so wasted. 2x 11 points just to activate 4 squadrons (yes, i know, 6 with tokens)? Sure, each with one extra blue dice, but X-Wings have already 4.
I can think of better cards to burn 22 points . And there is one part that is even worse. The Hammerhead are wasted as well, because they (normaly) hide away from the combat to do their squadron commands. Instead of one Hammerhead and the 4 upgrades on these two you could as well add two more Transports, and have still a lot of points for something else (the 22 from the upgrades to be correct). You will have more ships, be able to activate more squadrons, and the two transports are harder to kill than one Hammerhead.

The only true problem is the pure lack of combat ships. The Yavaris want to hide. The Hammerhead want to hide, the Transports want to hide. The only true damage are the 6 X-Wings with a red die and one reroll (if the Bomber Command Center stays alive long enough).
I just see a lack of damage in this list.

And 8-14 damage? From 6 X-Wings with 1 reroll and 3 VCX with one reroll? That is really high gambled. I would say its an average of 8,25 damage from these 9 attacks. 8 Damage is already on the high side of it. If you are doing 14 damage from these 9 attacks, it means that you roll at least 5 double hits (out of 6 X-Wings....). I really doubt this will be the norm .

Edit: i know you are calculating double attacks with the Yavaris, but do not do this without the FC and FCT. It might fail to often.

Considering that they run off a VCX ball, I'm not too concerned about manipulating the positioning with Yavaris. During my initial test, I was able to get my squads exactly where they needed to be, so much so the AFFM efforts on my pelta were wasted completely (thus it's removal). I don't see x-wings and vcx's having a tough time catching VSDs.

When considering this fleet you should consider what it is designed to fight, as described in my original post. Having an extra blue per x-wing, and using Toryn makes them nearly as effective as tie interceptors, with an added bonus of hull and bombing capabilities. the FCs will also allow my VCXs to hit with 4 dice each and a reroll with toryn making them an 8 hull AA apparatus and toryn will give a rell roll to VCXs once they're freed up to attack ships.

What I'm saying is, this squad synergy is designed to shut down enemy squads (specifically ties) rapidly. (If the quasar has nothing to activate, it's a deadweight target).

The point of lacking ship damage may be the most valid thing said here. The plan for this fleet is a long game.
-Win squadron game by round 2 (or beginning of 3)
-Target slow ships like VSDs with full squad compliment rounds 3-5 and move ships to intercept for round 6
-Use combined efforts of ships and squads to eliminate targets

We'll see about the rolls, so far I've had a very positive experience.

Of course, we'll have a better image of what it can do after I have a chance to play this fleet.

9 minutes ago, Darth Sanguis said:

Considering that they run off a VCX ball, I'm not too concerned about manipulating the positioning with Yavaris. During my initial test, I was able to get my squads exactly where they needed to be, so much so the AFFM efforts on my pelta were wasted completely (thus it's removal). I don't see x-wings and vcx's having a tough time catching VSDs.

When considering this fleet you should consider what it is designed to fight, as described in my original post. Having an extra blue per x-wing, and using Toryn makes them nearly as effective as tie interceptors, with an added bonus of hull and bombing capabilities. the FCs will also allow my VCXs to hit with 4 dice each and a reroll with toryn making them an 8 hull AA apparatus and toryn will give a rell roll to VCXs once they're freed up to attack ships.

What I'm saying is, this squad synergy is designed to shut down enemy squads (specifically ties) rapidly. (If the quasar has nothing to activate, it's a deadweight target).

The point of lacking ship damage may be the most valid thing said here. The plan for this fleet is a long game.
-Win squadron game by round 2 (or beginning of 3)
-Target slow ships like VSDs with full squad compliment rounds 3-5 and move ships to intercept for round 6
-Use combined efforts of ships and squads to eliminate targets

We'll see about the rolls, so far I've had a very positive experience.

Of course, we'll have a better image of what it can do after I have a chance to play this fleet.

First of all, I would maybe add Jan Ors and remove one X-Wing. This way the X-Wings will last way longer. And to be honest, i would have to think twice as well to fly into a X-Wing swarm that is guarded by Jan.

I know and can see how you would play the list, but i know as well how i would play mine against it .

Every good opponent does see where your damage is. A full squadron list will go for the squadrons in your list, and just ignnore the ships. Against Rebels you are in a stalemate, it depend on the rest of his fleet. But TIEs are faster, so he has the first strike (and there is no way for you to prevent this, without FCT+FC). The first alpha will kill 2-3 of your X-Wings (2 for sure, the 3rd depend on the rolls). And you are not able to use the Yavaris on the counter attack (becauce you are missing FCT+FC). Depending on the list of the Imperial (3-5 ships) your counterattack can be good or bad. In best case he has only 3 ships, this gives you enough time to activate a lot of squadrons and deal some good counterdamage. If he has 5 ships you are toast .
But in both ways, you will not have enough squadrons left to be any threat to his ships.

Win the squadron fight by round 2? Against a full squadron list and an experienced player? Dream on . Maybe turn 4. If you even win it.

I dont want to make the list bad or something. Just giving out some tips. I have not played against it yet. But i can only see how i would play against it, and what weaknesses are there to abuse.
And the main weakness is the bad damage if your squadrons are gone (main goal the squadrons). And the part that you just cannot alpha with this squadrons. You lack the range from Rhymer and the speed of the squadrons.

I was testing if one Mark II and one Transport are better than the two Hammerhead. But they do cost a bit more (7 points). So they are equal. But the Mark II would give you a better combat ship and a better alpha strike. And if you have the points for the Gallant Haven as well a better stand in the squadron fight. The drawback is, that you have to keep the Mark II close to the squadrons, and this way maybe close to the enemy ships. But even if you keep them out (as you would do with the Hammerhead) you can still activate 6 squadrons (but only with 3 with the extra dice instead of the 6).

2 hours ago, Tokra said:

First of all, I would maybe add Jan Ors and remove one X-Wing. This way the X-Wings will last way longer. And to be honest, i would have to think twice as well to fly into a X-Wing swarm that is guarded by Jan.

That's actually not a bad idea, at the very least it'll make 'em last a little longer. (added)

2 hours ago, Tokra said:

A full squadron list will go for the squadrons in your list, and just ignnore the ships. Against Rebels you are in a stalemate

This all comes back to what this build was designed to fight. My meta is crawling with twin vic +quasar builds using howl and tie swarms to alpha mass ties.

The only other rebel player in our current group has been running 3 Z95s as his screen. I ain't shook. lol

This isn't a list meant to win a tournament, this is for my meta, to break up the vic+quasar obsession.

2 hours ago, Tokra said:

Win the squadron fight by round 2? Against a full squadron list and an experienced player? Dream on . Maybe turn 4. If you even win it.

Again, it's not a tournament fleet. Against my meta, which this is designed to fight, this is exactly how it just played out (in rolls)

*Quasar alpha*
- Howl attacks an x-wing (with FCs) @ 4blue, 2 hits, (brace with Jan) to 1 hit
- Standard Int attacks same x-wing (Fcs and Howl) @ 6blue, 4 hits (after swarm reroll), (braced with Jan) to 2 hits
- Standard Int attacks same x-wing (Fcs and Howl) @ 6blue, 2 hits (after swarm reroll), braced with Jan) to 1 hit
- Standard Tie attacks same x-wing (Fcs and Howl) @ 5blue, 4 hits to kill the x-wing
- Standard Tie attacks an x-wing (Fcs and Howl) @ 5blue, 4 hits (after swarm reroll), (braced with Jan) to 2 hits
-Standard Tie attacks same x-wing (Fcs and Howl) @5blue, 1 hit (after swarm reroll) 1 hit

*Yavaris counter*
-X-wing (1) 1st attack on Howl, @4blue, 2 hits 2 acc (with toryn reroll), for 2 hits
-X-wing (1) 2nd attack on Howl, @4blue, 2 hits 1 acc (with toryn reroll), 2 hits to kill Howl
-X-wing (2) 1st attack on Tie Int, @4blue, 3 hits, Int is dead (1 hit counter)
-X-wing (2) 2nd attack on Tie Int, @4blue, 3 hits (with toryn reroll), for 3 hits Int is dead (2 hit counter)
-X-wing (3) 1st attack on Standard Tie, @4blue, 3hits (with toryn reroll), 3 hits Tie is dead
-X-wing (3) 2nd attack on Standard tie, @4blue, 2 hits (with toryn reroll), for 2 hits


In my meta, that means there's 3-4 ties left, and the rest of my squads haven't even activated (which will all have Fcs and likely toryn or BCCs if his squads die early).

Let's say he didn't choose fighter ambush this and this isn't round 1, Even by the end of round 2, I'll be cleaning his squads up shortly by early round 3...

2 hours ago, Tokra said:

I dont want to make the list bad or something. Just giving out some tips.

Your tips are all noted, but I don't feel like they'll ever be applicable where I intend to use this fleet.