http://xwingtactics.blogspot.com/2017/10/truthiness-vs-logic-factoring.html#more
Hey, I contributed to something! Me and Truthiness argue about list building, specifically whether you should build your list around a commander (Truthiness) or you should pick a commander that helps an already good list (me).
Edit: Oh, yeah, and we're rebranding, as not all of us want to write all Armada all the time. Now we'll do Armada, and other stuff!
Edited by BiggsIRLEnjoyable write up. My mindset is more like yours Biggs.
While I can start with just a general idea, I quickly find what admirals are most applicable.
And once that choice is made it's all about maximization of the admiral's benefits.
It's an interesting discussion, however I think @BiggsIRL arguments are somewhat misguided. I can take Motti as an example (as I used him in most of my tournament lists) and the statement that " Anyone that "builds around Motti" is just building a good, hard to kill list that would be equally at home with any other Imperial commander " is just wrong. If the list is as good with someone else as with Motti, it means that Motti is a wrong admiral for the job. And for me personally, I do want Motti ability to be needed (even potentially - as in "This is round 6, your ISD has 7 hull left with Motti, so I can't kill it and will attack a different target"), as otherwise it's likely that I didn't fly my list right.
Essentially I think that @Green Knight is right - one starts with the core of the list, then selects the admiral based on that, and than tweaks the list based on the selected admiral.
As someone who uses JJ exclusively as their Imperial commander, I've got something to say. You can't throw JJ into a fleet and expect to do well because you have the extra yaw. You need to tailor a list around your commander, specifically JJ in this case.
JJ let's you pseudo Nav so you can do something else, or Nav even harder. What ships want to have a ton of Navs? Glads, Vics, and Arqs. ISDs do as well, but since they are so big you can usually throw them into your opponent. No finesse required. But Glads want to CF, especially Demo, instead of Nav since they can hit way above their class limit. Vics get a huge benefit of Nav+JJ since they get 2 yaw at joint at speed 2, allowing it to side step a blocking ship or set up an attack. JJ also let's you use Repairs since Vics need to have shields in order to survive. And obviously Arqs need JJ since their nav chart is pretty bare.
JJ takes a sledge hammer and let's you wield it like a rapier. You can hit your opponent where they don't expect, or let you retreat very easily.
Dodonna also happens to be my favorite Rebel commander, and when I'm not failing with Sato, I'm playing Dodonna. I've won 2 tournaments with the big D, and I did it by making a list focused on dealing crits. TRC90 let's me throw crits. Garel's Honor let's me ram for crits. Norra, 2 X-Wings, 2 E-Wings, Biggs, and Gold all have bomber and have synergy with Norra and Dodonna. Jan and GH keep my bombers alive. Flight Commander let's me rip shields off a ship before the squads attack and guarantee protection. Flight Controllers let's me kill squads so my bombers can attack ships. BCC and Toryn grant rerolls to increase damage output. Precision Strike, Fighter Ambush, and Superior Positions all grant points to me when my squads attack. The entire list is based around Dodonna. It has a purpose. Everything ship, upgrade, and squad is carefully considered when I make changes with the end goal "How do I deal crits faster and more efficiently?" I put so much thought into the list, I'm already one step ahead when I go to a tournament.
Don't you end up in the same place no matter if you start with a commander and build to make the most of that or pick a list and pick the commander that lets it shine. Can you really tell which you've done before you play the list? Would what you've done change if someone else played the list?
20 minutes ago, Frimmel said:Don't you end up in the same place no matter if you start with a commander and build to make the most of that or pick a list and pick the commander that lets it shine. Can you really tell which you've done before you play the list? Would what you've done change if someone else played the list?
Who are you asking? If you're asking me, it's a long, some what complicated answer to how I make fleets.
1 hour ago, Undeadguy said:Who are you asking? If you're asking me, it's a long, some what complicated answer to how I make fleets.
I'm suggesting that the journey of fleet building isn't nearly as important as the destination.
9 minutes ago, Frimmel said:I'm suggesting that the journey of fleet building isn't nearly as important as the destination.
Well I think if you ever played a list and changed it afterwards disproves your statement. It's the culmination of playing your fleet, understanding the goals of the fleet, and understanding how the fleet works together that will reach the destination, like winning tournaments.
Biggs likes Garm and builds lists that have redundency built in.
Truthi likes Madine and builds lists that are ruthlessly efficient.
This article has nothing to do with fleet building approach and the sooner the authors realise this the better.
Lists are not built around commanders in the same way as they are not built around individual units. Lists are a compendium of ideas, objectives, upgrades and strategy.
2 hours ago, Ginkapo said:Biggs likes Garm and builds lists that have redundency built in.
Truthi likes Madine and builds lists that are ruthlessly efficient.
This article has nothing to do with fleet building approach and the sooner the authors realise this the better.
Lists are not built around commanders in the same way as they are not built around individual units. Lists are a compendium of ideas, objectives, upgrades and strategy.
Do not try and build the list. That's impossible. Instead, only realize the truth... THERE IS NO LIST. Then you will see that it not the list that is built, it is yourself.
7 hours ago, CaribbeanNinja said:Do not try and build the list. That's impossible. Instead, only realize the truth... THERE IS NO LIST. Then you will see that it not the list that is built, it is yourself.
Exactly
17 hours ago, Undeadguy said:Well I think if you ever played a list and changed it afterwards disproves your statement. It's the culmination of playing your fleet, understanding the goals of the fleet, and understanding how the fleet works together that will reach the destination, like winning tournaments.
I'd call that portion "tweaking" a list. That isn't "building a list." Changes after you've played is just editing or revision. That isn't the building part to me.
But if you want to stick with that as "building" my further response would be, "Okay, sure." 
This more succinctly states what I was working around the edges of:
16 hours ago, Ginkapo said:Lists are not built around commanders in the same way as they are not built around individual units. Lists are a compendium of ideas, objectives, upgrades and strategy.
You can't have a list without units nor can you have lists without commanders. Is which comes first really the important question?
14 minutes ago, Frimmel said:I'd call that portion "tweaking" a list. That isn't "building a list." Changes after you've played is just editing or revision. That isn't the building part to me.
But if you want to stick with that as "building" my further response would be, "Okay, sure."
This more succinctly states what I was working around the edges of:
You can't have a list without units nor can you have lists without commanders. Is which comes first really the important question?
It would appear the 3 of us are on the same page. Gink and I have agreed for some time with fleet building. You have to look at the entire picture. Everything has to work together and you need to have a plan for every scenario. I think we differ in how to start that process.
It varies for me whenever I build a fleet. Sometimes it starts with a ship, commander or upgrade. In some cases, someone had a challenge to make a certain fleet, which is actually where my dual Glad fleet came from. JJ was released and I wanted to try something new.
But where ever the fleet starts, it goes through the same process:
My commander needs to work with me entire fleet. Anything I put in the fleet should be complemented by my commander. Glads, Vics, and Raiders all benefit from JJ. JJ also allows me to run without squads because I can side step them and get out of range.
My objectives need to synergize with my fleet, but also allow me to have varying strategies. I play Most Wanted much differently than HSA, which is also different than Solar Corona. Each objective also needs to force my opponent into a certain one based on their fleet. An ISD fleet probably won't pick MW because I get extra black dice and double points. A carrier fleet probably won't pick SC because they lose deployment advantage. I'm thinking of how my fleet will play before it even hits the table.
My fleet has a core. Both Glad titles and a Vic II. This concept will always remain the same. The rest of the points are what allow me to win against the meta. Raiders to kill squads. 6 activations to go last/first or delay until my opponent has no ships left. ECM to deal with Admo, ISDs, and MC80s. Comms Net allows for options. APT to one shot small ships and cripple large ones. DC+GT+LS to kill 2 flots, which gives me activation advantage.
Once my fleet is built, I need to understand how to deploy, activate, and attack. I need to develop a plan to play against all the other archetypes. Then I can tweak and refine my list.
It's a long, hard process. But every decision is important. I sit and think about how to optimize this fleet. I know it inside and out. How much damage I can take before I need to retreat? When do I need to Nav or Repair? How my opponent will react to a certain movement? The size of my attack ranges and expected damage.
It hasn't been until these past few weeks where I've felt confident enough to say this list is successful, and I've been practicing it for months. I had planned to go to Worlds with it, and before that I had been playing it since March. This entire journey has given me a much deeper appreciation to Armada.
So to answer your question, I don't think it matters where your fleet comes from. But rather what Gink said:
17 hours ago, Ginkapo said:Lists are a compendium of ideas, objectives, upgrades and strategy.
I finally finished writing about the Skirmish Phase!
http://xwingtactics.blogspot.com/2017/10/phase-4-skirmish-here-they-come.html
Oh, did I post that old xwingtactics.blogspot website? I mean:
http://www.steelstrategy.com/2017/10/phase-4-skirmish-here-they-come.html
7 hours ago, BiggsIRL said:I finally finished writing about the Skirmish Phase!
http://xwingtactics.blogspot.com/2017/10/phase-4-skirmish-here-they-come.html
Hmm, I would tend to disagree that on turn two and three most ships will be at long range....by turn three, my whole fleet is usually in the enemy deployment zone and unloading at point blank range. I've been told I'm just about the most incredibly aggressive, get in your face with assault protons commander there is......
You yourself say that you have been told you are specifically the most aggressive commander there is.
that, by definition, makes you an edge if case outlier, and thus, not “usual” or “most” in what you do.
33 minutes ago, Drasnighta said:You yourself say that you have been told you are specifically the most aggressive commander there is.
that, by definition, makes you an edge if case outlier, and thus, not “usual” or “most” in what you do.
Well, I would say that being in close range early turn 3 is not uncommon and it usually happens when the fleet that has navigational advantage (that rises from deployment advantage/activation advantage/fleet composition) prefers to fight at close range as opposed to long range.
1 hour ago, Drasnighta said:You yourself say that you have been told you are specifically the most aggressive commander there is.
that, by definition, makes you an edge if case outlier, and thus, not “usual” or “most” in what you do.
True, good point.
1 hour ago, PT106 said:Well, I would say that being in close range early turn 3 is not uncommon and it usually happens when the fleet that has navigational advantage (that rises from deployment advantage/activation advantage/fleet composition) prefers to fight at close range as opposed to long range.
Hehe.....I'm definitely a close range brawler, and it does not matter who has what.....speed demon, baby, and **** the proton torpedoes.....?
2 hours ago, PT106 said:Well, I would say that being in close range early turn 3 is not uncommon and it usually happens when the fleet that has navigational advantage (that rises from deployment advantage/activation advantage/fleet composition) prefers to fight at close range as opposed to long range.
Yup. If I am flying mc30s then I need to be offloading black dice turn 3 and tabling turn 4. Anything else and something has gone wrong.
1 hour ago, Ginkapo said:Yup. If I am flying mc30s then I need to be offloading black dice turn 3 and tabling turn 4. Anything else and something has gone wrong.
Gladiators for me, but same principle, indeed.
8 hours ago, Ginkapo said:Yup. If I am flying mc30s then I need to be offloading black dice turn 3 and tabling turn 4. Anything else and something has gone wrong.
Like getting rammed on turn 2
2 hours ago, Truthiness said:Like getting rammed on turn 2
Dont forget the B-wings! Everyone loves B-wings!
41 minutes ago, geek19 said:Dont forget the B-wings! Everyone loves B-wings!
