Should these be a thing? Bundling something that isn't optimal but helps out the ship in question?

Minimal complement
Offensive Retrofit, ISD only
8 points
After deploying this ship, add two Tie Fighter Squadrons to your list and deploy them adjacent to this ship.
This upgrade also counts for 8 points towards the squadron points spent cap.

This would make 3 ISD a viable option. (Though with the way the current game is going, that might not be something to push strongly).

Defensive Matrix
Defensive Retrofit, Afmk2 only
4 points
Equip the Redundant Shields upgrade to this ship and treat its fleet point cost as 0.

I want to see more upgrades like Minister Tua that add up grade slots or like Captain Needa swapping out defense tokens. I could see these help some ships come back to the table.

1 hour ago, Blail Blerg said:

Should these be a thing? Bundling something that isn't optimal but helps out the ship in question?

Minimal complement
Offensive Retrofit, ISD only
8 points
After deploying this ship, add two Tie Fighter Squadrons to your list and deploy them adjacent to this ship.
This upgrade also counts for 8 points towards the squadron points spent cap.

This would make 3 ISD a viable option. (Though with the way the current game is going, that might not be something to push strongly).

Defensive Matrix
Defensive Retrofit, Afmk2 only
4 points
Equip the Redundant Shields upgrade to this ship and treat its fleet point cost as 0.

Couldn't you agree with your opponent to just play a 408 point game.

We soon will have additional Ship Cards for ISDs which make other Upgrade Slots available. We got Needa, Tua, and Phoenix Home which change the Upgrade Slot mix or Defense Token mix. I would think, that FFG may will come up with familiar concepts. But I can't imagine a card for 8 points that let you deploy two fighters for together 16 points (when restricted to TIE Fighters). Or the sort of "card X is for ship Y 4 points cheaper". That's kind of a weird concept to nerf them.

If you want to play a 3 ISD list, the raise the point limit to 450 or 500 in casual game. In tournament it also could be fun, but prepare to die.

I can see upgrades like Needa and Tua show up more often, but flat out saying "Add _____ to this ship free of cost doesn't sound likely." If there's really a ship that's that terrible (and I don't think there is), I'd expect there to be a rerelease like the ISD is now getting with different upgrade options on it.

5 hours ago, Blail Blerg said:

Should these be a thing? Bundling something that isn't optimal but helps out the ship in question?

Minimal complement
Offensive Retrofit, ISD only
8 points
After deploying this ship, add two Tie Fighter Squadrons to your list and deploy them adjacent to this ship.
This upgrade also counts for 8 points towards the squadron points spent cap.

This would make 3 ISD a viable option. (Though with the way the current game is going, that might not be something to push strongly).

Defensive Matrix
Defensive Retrofit, Afmk2 only
4 points
Equip the Redundant Shields upgrade to this ship and treat its fleet point cost as 0.

X-wing did this and the community have all been complaining about this kind of "fixing" ever since. The tie advance is a prime example.

16 minutes ago, Muelmuel said:

X-wing did this and the community have all been complaining about this kind of "fixing" ever since. The tie advance is a prime example.

Part of that problem is FFG went and stuck a chunk of those fixes in the Epic ship packs. So you had to drop $100 or whatever it was on a Raider or CR90 to get necessary cards for some ships. That's one of the reasons I quit and eventually sold my XWMG stuff

If FFG does something like a generic title for AFmk2 that allows Vader style spend defense token for reroll, but then includes it in the $200 Super Star Destroyer expansion, that would anger the community immensely. If FFG made that card and included it with other fixes in the next $30 campaign box, I would be salty about it.

5 hours ago, Blail Blerg said:

Should these be a thing? Bundling something that isn't optimal but helps out the ship in question?

Minimal complement
Offensive Retrofit, ISD only
8 points
After deploying this ship, add two Tie Fighter Squadrons to your list and deploy them adjacent to this ship.
This upgrade also counts for 8 points towards the squadron points spent cap.

This would make 3 ISD a viable option. (Though with the way the current game is going, that might not be something to push strongly).

Defensive Matrix
Defensive Retrofit, Afmk2 only
4 points
Equip the Redundant Shields upgrade to this ship and treat its fleet point cost as 0.

I mean, should 3 ISD be viable at 400? How do you counter that as a Rebel though? And yes, people can jokingly throw out responses like getting good or that Rebels are meant to lose because scum of the galaxy or whatever, but game-wise that doesn't seem healthy.

I gotta say I'm not a fan of this. It only leads to power creep. It's one thing to give versatility to a model, it's another to give it a 'fix'

What if these were used to discount the cost of overcosted or underused cards, instead of boosting a ship?

Redundant shields, cluster bombs, etc...

I think that is what he is trying to do above. Problem with a low relative point to power scale is that reducing the cost of an upgrade sometimes just 1 point can turn it from unused to too strong.

I actually like the idea of reducing the points but tying it to a second slot. Its at least an interesting idea though I have no clue if it would work.

On 10/02/2017 at 0:46 AM, Blail Blerg said:

Defensive Matrix
Defensive Retrofit, Afmk2 only
4 points
Equip the Redundant Shields upgrade to this ship and treat its fleet point cost as 0.

Are we all just going to ignore this elephant in the room?

AF2's have featured prominently in multiple fleets at the top tables at Worlds all three years so far, winning it all in 2/3. This might not be a bad idea for patching ships in the general sense, but I don't think the AF2, of all things, needs it...

20 hours ago, Ardaedhel said:

Are we all just going to ignore this elephant in the room?

AF2's have featured prominently in multiple fleets at the top tables at Worlds all three years so far, winning it all in 2/3. This might not be a bad idea for patching ships in the general sense, but I don't think the AF2, of all things, needs it...

Its roles were

Squadron pusher via Gallant Haven. - this is well and viable, but a serious pigeon hole

Squadron pusher plus mid-sized ship for bulk purposes. - this is not viable, on the basis of sheer efficiency and damage output. Neither does the AF have the ability to survive modern alphas.

Its other roles include: Ackbar Gunline. Out of favor for the MC80 due to how activation and deep alpha is emphasized in the game and in the current meta.

While it seems like the AF has options, they're kind of very specialized, and not particularly engaging in a list building sense.

--

Now, I also remember getting a lot of antagonistic and malicious declarative statements (not exactly from you) that said that I only ever talked about winners and too small of a sample size constantly during the rieekan aces period. I'm glad you brought this up (this is an excellent point), but if you also consider that during wave5 medium ships were nearly non-existent, perhaps we can agree that meta strength is a complicated attribute.

A different type of upgrade would probably also be more interesting, something that wasn't directly efficiency/defense/offense related.

19 hours ago, Blail Blerg said:

Its roles were

Squadron pusher via Gallant Haven. - this is well and viable, but a serious pigeon hole

Squadron pusher plus mid-sized ship for bulk purposes. - this is not viable, on the basis of sheer efficiency and damage output. Neither does the AF have the ability to survive modern alphas.

Its other roles include: Ackbar Gunline. Out of favor for the MC80 due to how activation and deep alpha is emphasized in the game and in the current meta.

While it seems like the AF has options, they're kind of very specialized, and not particularly engaging in a list building sense.

Well, having only watched @JJs Juggernaut 's match, it started OUT as a squadron pusher and then got called early. If JJ wanted to elaborate about how it did on the leadup TO Top Table, he might have a different opinion. And as the only (viable) option Rebels have for Flight Controllers, squadron pusher is a viable spot (i agree with you), but is it SUPPOSED to survive modern alphas? Heck, I remember wave 1 where mine got shot off the table by @Snipafist 9 times out of 10.

(Theory incoming) I wonder (and am going to try) if we're supposed to think of it as a big heavy or more accurately like a combined arms ship (considering it's built like one....). As a generalist, it could start out helping you push your squadrons and then move into finishing off whatever your other ships have been attacking (3 and 2 red dice aint GREAT, but it's not BAD, either). It's still gotta skirt the battlefield, but with Relay and Boosted Comms and such, that's not necessarily a downfall for squadron pushing. It HANDLES like a large ship, but not incredibly terribly, and it has decent shielding. Don't let it get alpha struck by Demo (I am bad at this) and you can maybe do work with it? Maybe? I'm starting to think of it more as a Toni Kukoc, to incredibly date myself. It's not the Michael Jordan superstar player, but it'll put some good time in and help you when you need it if supported well.

I know our meta has a preponderance of MSU, and our other main Rebel player doesn't take it because he's super in MC30s, but basically, I'm going to try the AF now and see if I can get it to work, haha. Start out pushing squadrons with it (and get the Flight Controllers Alpha), follow up whatever my MC30 is hitting after that. I can't say that it'll WORK, but it's an interesting thought process and one I'm willing to explore. Plus given the choice between hitting Admo or a nearly naked AF, which would you rather focus your fire on to make sure it hurts you less?

Again, it's a lot of speculation on my part, but I'm reconsidering it.....

On 10/2/2017 at 5:05 AM, Mad Cat said:

Couldn't you agree with your opponent to just play a 408 point game.

I see this as the imp way of breaking squad limit, which rebels effectively have being able to attack with 180-200 pts worth