I had the following scenario a couple of weeks back:

My opponent’s Dengar was the first ship on the board to fire, the only ship he could potentially shoot at was my decimator. And neighter of us was sure if the decision was in Dengar’s arc or not. Since both the ships are PWT, the only reason it matters is for the revenge shot. The question is if my opponent is required to measure arc to the deci or not.

My initial reaction is that he has to. The step in to the flow chart is named “Measure range to enemy ships and check attacker's ring arc”, and PWT only allows you fo fire at targets outside your arc, not ignore the arc.

What do you guys think?

For abilities that trigger when "in arc", you definitely have to check both range to the target and whether the target is in arc. Otherwise Dengar doesn't get his return shot, double stress doesn't occur with BTL-A4 and TLT etc..

If an ability requires you to measure something in order to trigger it you can.

Note that technically, this means that you only check whether the attacker is in Dengar's arc after he chooses to trigger his ability, which happens after the attack - so strictly speaking the attacker can't measure to see if he's in Dengar's arc before deciding whether or not to shoot him.

1 hour ago, thespaceinvader said:

If an ability requires you to measure something in order to trigger it you can.

Note that technically, this means that you only check whether the attacker is in Dengar's arc after he chooses to trigger his ability, which happens after the attack - so strictly speaking the attacker can't measure to see if he's in Dengar's arc before deciding whether or not to shoot him.

Maybe I should have been more precise with my question. I agree on this, but the question is if Dengar, when he attacks with his primary weapon, has to measure if its arc or not, so I know if it is when I decide to attack or not later. Technically (see my original post) there’s nothing saying that you are allowed to not measure the arc.

You don't have to. You are permitted to, but you don't have to take that option, unless you're using something that cares, like a torpedo, or Snap Shot, or they are, like Autothrusters.

30 minutes ago, thespaceinvader said:

You don't have to. You are permitted to, but you don't have to take that option, unless you're using something that cares, like a torpedo, or Snap Shot, or they are, like Autothrusters.

Why? Can you show me where in the rules it says that checking arc is optional?

"Declare Target:

The attacker may measure

range to any number of enemy ships and check

which enemy ships are inside his firing arc."

May. Not must.

2 hours ago, thespaceinvader said:

"Declare Target:

The attacker may measure

range to any number of enemy ships and check

which enemy ships are inside his firing arc."

May. Not must.

Blue core"Rules Reference" booklet p.4 under Attack

ANY attack is always optional. You don't have to attack if you don't want to.

9 hours ago, thespaceinvader said:

"Declare Target:

The attacker may measure

range to any number of enemy ships and check

which enemy ships are inside his firing arc."

May. Not must.

That is before you choose your target however. I can’t see from that that you can choose not to measure range and arc on the ship you end up shooting at.

Because it's obviously in range and you don't care if it's in arc.

8 hours ago, Yearfire said:

That is before you choose your target however. I can’t see from that that you can choose not to measure range and arc on the ship you end up shooting at.

The only thing that is mandatory, for a ship with a turret, is to measure the range. You need to do it in arc when firing a ship without a turret or a relevant ability is used, but otherwise you don't. Think of it this way:

A - Decimator is at the bottom, facing up.

B - Dengar is in the middle, facing up.

C - Vader is at the top-right corner, facing Dengar.

If Dengar attacks the decimator, are you really going to insist that he checks his forward arc (and gain some information as to whether Vader can shoot him safely or not)? Vader has nothing to do with the story, the arc also has nothing to do with anything at this point. Dengar does not need to measure his arc for his attack to be valid.

11 hours ago, Yearfire said:

That is before you choose your target however. I can’t see from that that you can choose not to measure range and arc on the ship you end up shooting at.

You measure to any targets you want to measure, you choose a target (which has already been measured, so no need to measure again), and then you roll dice. The Primary Turret rules allow the attacker to ignore the arc and measure closest to closest, so they are not required to check arc.

Other than that, the arc would only be checked when the player controlling Dengar declares Dengar's ability.

39 minutes ago, skotothalamos said:

The Primary Turret rules allow the attacker to ignore the arc and measure closest to closest, so they are not required to check arc.

But this is where I start wondering. PWT allows you to fire at targets inside or outside your firing arc, it doesn’t let you ignore your arc. So technically, you could argue that you would have to measure arc to find out which of the two legal categories (inside arc or outside arc) the target is in.

It makes no difference which category they're in, unless you have something that makes it make a difference, such as Tactician, or they do, such as Autothrusters. You're not required to measure unless something requires you to measure.

If there's nothing requiring you to measure...

I'm not sure how much more simply this can be put.

14 hours ago, thespaceinvader said:

Because it's obviously in range and you don't care if it's in arc.

So are you saying that if one ship is attacking another there is no requirement to measure range or arc? Now I guess both sides could just agree on things but if EITHER side wants then it seem to me that range and arc must both be measured for an attack.

In that line under Declaring a Target the "may measure" is regarding the "any number of ships" although if you want to attack some specific ship then you WILL need to measure to it. If you choose not to make any of those measurements or check arc then you are effectively choosing not to make any attacks.

7 hours ago, StevenO said:

So are you saying that if one ship is attacking another there is no requirement to measure range or arc? Now I guess both sides could just agree on things but if EITHER side wants then it seem to me that range and arc must both be measured for an attack.

This is my understanding as well. And if the Inquisitor attacks, the range ruler would technically be put down even if it didn’t matter, and from that point, the distance between him and the defender would be public knowledge. Wouldn’t the same apply for arc even when it doesn’t matter for the shot in question?

You are both making up rules. Quote where it says your thing in the rules or faq or stop saying it.

I quoted mine.

The problem is that this isn’t a clear cut case. Your quote isn’t covering it because the “may” that you’re referring to is before you have chosen a target. You “may” measure range and arc to any enemy ship on the board in the first step, but we’re talking about the ship that you end up firing at.

On page 6 of the FAQ it says

When a ship becomes the active ship during the combat phase, the active player can measure range [and arc] from the active ship to any enemy ships before declaring one as its target.

I can’t see any other way to read that (that makes sense) than that you may measure to anyone, but must measure to the one you declare as a target.

Later in the flowchart on page 8, under step 1. Substep 1i. reads “Measure range to enemy ships and check attacker's ring arc”, and is the only place in the entire flowchart where range and arc is measured Meaning that when range and arc later becomes relevant, that data technically was acquired at this substep.

Also notice that whenever range and arc is mentioned concerning attacks, they appear together. I’ll argue that means they follow the same rules for when the information is available. That means the Dengar problem follows the same rules as the Inquisitor problem. And I see that problem as quite clear cut. Even if the range for the Inquisitor’s attack doesn’t matter, you still have to measure if he’s within range 1-3, and the only way to do that is with the range ruler. And when the range ruler is put down between two ships, the exact range becomes public information. This should be a case of “open information” (FAQ, page 6)

Nowhere does that say you must measure range or arc to any ship.

The information produced by measuring range and arc is undeniably public, I've not suggested otherwise.

Put it this way:

Oicunn has Vader in front of him, OL at about 45 degrees, maybe in arc, maybe not, and vessery behind him.

He chooses to shoot vessery, so he doesn't measure range or arc to either other potential tartget. He's in no way required to.

Vessery has already shot Oicunn, and it was at range 2, so Oicunn has no need to measure range to vessery either.

Why should OL be able to find out if he's in Oicunn's arc or not?

Things are measured when they're required to be measured. The fact that there's a step to check range and arc for the attack doesn't mean that's the only time you can measure things.

10 minutes ago, thespaceinvader said:

Why should OL be able to find out if he's in Oicunn's arc or not?

That's a straw man argument. I never said that you are required to measure range and arc to any ship, but you are required to measure to the one that ends up being your target. If you can find something in the rules that denies that, I will gladly agree with you, but any other ships doesn't have anything to do with the problem.

Am I required to measure Oicunn's arc when shooting at Vessery? I don't need to put a ruler down to know that Vessery is out of Oicunn's arc, nor to know that Vader's in it. OL is the only one about whom information not already clear would be derived by measuring Oicunn's arc.

In your opinion then, in the example above, is there any requirement to measure Oicunn's arc at all?

I can't prove a negative. That's not how the rules of this game nor arguments... work.

The rules say you may measure. Not that you must. IN practice, for many if not most shots, range and arc are obvious, so there's no need to actually put a ruler on the table.

1 minute ago, thespaceinvader said:

Am I required to measure Oicunn's arc when shooting at Vessery? I don't need to put a ruler down to know that Vessery is out of Oicunn's arc, nor to know that Vader's in it. OL is the only one about whom information not already clear would be derived by measuring Oicunn's arc.

In your opinion then, in the example above, is there any requirement to measure Oicunn's arc at all?

Isn't this the question we are discussing? Why is it any more absurd to "measure arc" to a ship that is obviously within or without than the common trick to attempt a target lock at a ship that is obviously outside of range just to see the range to it?

Theoretically, I could measure range and arc to a ship behind me when I activate with an x-wing in the combat phase. I wouldn't be able to target it, but the rules are blind to that until after I check that. "Obviously outside/inside arc" is not a game term.

Not just theoretically. You're absolutely welcome to, if you want.

It gives your opponent free information of limited benefit to you, but you can.

So going back to the example above: Oicunn actually measures range to Vessery.

Has he also measured arc by doing so? The rulers was nowhere near the lines of his arc, so it's clear he's not in arc. Is there any requirement in your opinion to put the ruler on the arc lines to make sure?

Just now, thespaceinvader said:

Has he also measured arc by doing so? The rulers was nowhere near the lines of his arc, so it's clear he's not in arc. Is there any requirement in your opinion to put the ruler on the arc lines to make sure?

How to solve it practically is another matter. An easy way to solve that problem without giving away any extra information would be to measure from the ends of Vessery’s base and to the center of Oicunn’s base. Both of those lines falls outside the arc, so Vessery isn’t in arc.

The point is that if one of the players should want the check to be made, it’s supposed to be public information.