Okay guys which of the Empire's advanced interceptors do we want to see and what stats do you think they will have.

I don't even know what a TIE Hunter is.

and I only know of the Avenger from the TIE fighter game.

7 minutes ago, Drasnighta said:

I don't even know what a TIE Hunter is.

and I only know of the Avenger from the TIE fighter game.

They are basically a TIE version of an Xwing with ion cannons. It is from the Star Wars Rogue Squadron series.

So Modern-Day Obscure. (And I'm sorry that may offend some, but the Legends are going that way...)

Especially in light of the NewCanon "TIE Silencer" being pandered around at the end of the year basically looking like a big Interceptor/Advanced Combination.

So we'll have to see if they re-canonise anything in the meantime. That'd give an indication of which.

TIE AVENGER!

just after the Xg-1 Assualt Gunboat...

57 minutes ago, DScipio said:

TIE AVENGER!

just after the Xg-1 Assualt Gunboat...

I personally like the look of the Hunter over the Avenger. But I am a little biased since I played the game with it.

The sfoil gimmick on the TIE Hunter really killed it for me. There is literally no reason for it, since it's not like TIEs need special configurations for landing.

TIE Avenger. I always thought the Hunter's wings looked too fragile for combat operations.

On 10/3/2017 at 2:42 PM, Norsehound said:

The sfoil gimmick on the TIE Hunter really killed it for me. There is literally no reason for it, since it's not like TIEs need special configurations for landing.

Actually, after extracting the game models, I found that there is a good reason: The hangar on the Storm Commando Escort Carrier is really small, so these fighters would need to close their S-Foils to safely enter, and to be moved into storage without much volume wasted. Also, they might need to close them to enter hyperspace, like X-Wings and B-Wings.

I would say the Hunter. The Avenger is in-between the X1 and the Defender in capabilities, and there is not much room between the two in either this game or X-Wing. The Hunter is totally different. Super fragile, fast, with bomber and escort. So an X-Wing perhaps with a lower attack, definitely lower hull, and higher speed.

2 minutes ago, Knightcrawler said:

I would say the Hunter. The Avenger is in-between the X1 and the Defender in capabilities, and there is not much room between the two in either this game or X-Wing. The Hunter is totally different. Super fragile, fast, with bomber and escort. So an X-Wing perhaps with a lower attack, definitely lower hull, and higher speed.

Lancers just aren't popular either. The Low Hull just kills them. Even trading out Grit + Rogue for Escort... They'll die faster.

Low Hull doesn't cut it, unless its Swarming it up for stupidly cheap points, it seems.

I was thinking they would be pretty cheap.

3 minutes ago, Knightcrawler said:

I was thinking they would be pretty cheap.

Even if you cut 3 Points off the Lancer for Rogue + Grit... You'd be at 12, and probably re-bump to X-Wing cost by adding on Escort .

I don't disagree there is design space there - there totally is - I'm just... I feel somewhat defeated that somet things like the Lancer just don't see play.

4 hours ago, Knightcrawler said:

Actually, after extracting the game models, I found that there is a good reason: The hangar on the Storm Commando Escort Carrier is really small, so these fighters would need to close their S-Foils to safely enter, and to be moved into storage without much volume wasted. Also, they might need to close them to enter hyperspace, like X-Wings and B-Wings.

I would say the Hunter. The Avenger is in-between the X1 and the Defender in capabilities, and there is not much room between the two in either this game or X-Wing. The Hunter is totally different. Super fragile, fast, with bomber and escort. So an X-Wing perhaps with a lower attack, definitely lower hull, and higher speed.

I would have much rather preferred Fractalsponge's take on how the wings fold, rather than closing like S-foils. It makes it seem more like cramped space storage than a visual gimmick. I'm also not a fan of these being super-sektret-elite-commando-ion-gun fighters used by the Empire when such fighters already existed with the TIE Defender and TIE Phantom. In all it seemed too pretentious of a presentation than I was willing to take seriously. Still, artists like Fractal make the TIE Hunter into something credible, and I'm far more accepting of the design than the hacked-together contributions from Galaxies.

If the TIE Avengers came to our universe I'd make them beefier, nastier TIE Interceptors. Hull 5, Counter 2, grit, speed 5. Two blue die on the battery and 4 blues for AA. I would give them swarm, except TIE/Ad were never used for swarm attacks. Stating them like this makes them better for shooting down fighters in sustained engagements, where the Defender is supposed to have better hitting power against all targets (with bomber and two black dice, more blues are better against aces). Cost them closer to 14-15 points... they need to make players agonize between taking disposable TIE Interceptors, aces, or taking more robust TIE/Ad that need commanding.

I've never had firsthand experience with the TIE Hunters . I'd drop them down to speed 4, three blue AA with counter 1 and rogue with a black battery. Some kind of Rogue TIE with decent attack abilities and some counter to make them sting a bit when they engage.

6 hours ago, Norsehound said:

I would have much rather preferred Fractalsponge's take on how the wings fold, rather than closing like S-foils. It makes it seem more like cramped space storage than a visual gimmick. I'm also not a fan of these being super-sektret-elite-commando-ion-gun fighters used by the Empire when such fighters already existed with the TIE Defender and TIE Phantom. In all it seemed too pretentious of a presentation than I was willing to take seriously. Still, artists like Fractal make the TIE Hunter into something credible, and I'm far more accepting of the design than the hacked-together contributions from Galaxies.

If the TIE Avengers came to our universe I'd make them beefier, nastier TIE Interceptors. Hull 5, Counter 2, grit, speed 5. Two blue die on the battery and 4 blues for AA. I would give them swarm, except TIE/Ad were never used for swarm attacks. Stating them like this makes them better for shooting down fighters in sustained engagements, where the Defender is supposed to have better hitting power against all targets (with bomber and two black dice, more blues are better against aces). Cost them closer to 14-15 points... they need to make players agonize between taking disposable TIE Interceptors, aces, or taking more robust TIE/Ad that need commanding.

I've never had firsthand experience with the TIE Hunters . I'd drop them down to speed 4, three blue AA with counter 1 and rogue with a black battery. Some kind of Rogue TIE with decent attack abilities and some counter to make them sting a bit when they engage.

Fractalsponge had an interesting idea, but it's actually not any more space-efficient than the legends Hunter. Actually, it might be a little less efficient. All that space between the top wing and bottom wing is unusable, while only some of that space is needed for the docking clamps. It looks like a little more lost space than between the wings on the legends model (which could have been reduced to nearly zero if there was a "landing mode" on the legends model). Regardless of whether such a thing existed, to efficiently pack TIE Hunters, you simply arrange them in alternating rows, like bricks. It'd be fun to fully detail an escort carrier just to see if one way is more efficient in that carrier. The unfortunate part about FS' redesign is that (to my eye) it doesn't reduce the clearance room as much as the legends design does, which could make landing on a Storm Commando Escort Carrier a little bit harder. On a more subjective note, I also think his redesigned fuselage looks a lot less aggressive than the legends model, and a little less utilitarian as well (no rear window). The original fuselage is actually pretty awesome, IMO. I know FS is on this forum now, and if he sees this, sorry buddy! I still think you're a great modeler!

AFAIK, the "Storm Commando" is actually a very old thing in Legends, dating to the WEG modules and also mentioned in decently early novels. It's not too hard to imagine that the Empire would have their own equivalent of Navy Seals. TIE Hunters having Ion Cannons makes perfect sense, because they would be sent on a variety of missions, probably including a lot of abduction and capture missions. It may well have predated the TIE Defender, but even if it didn't, the Defender was not available to the Storm Commandos (or the Empire at large) because of Zarin's betrayal. The TIE Phantom (which didn't have Ion Cannons) was available to nobody in the Empire, because its production facility was destroyed before they could be deployed. The Admiral in charge of TIE Phantom development was apparently a perfectionist, so he didn't feel comfortable shipping them until it was too late. They could have used the Assault Gunboat, but probably didn't want to due to its relatively slow sublight speed. Besides, having an exclusive TIE model could have been seen as a symbol of their prestige and success in the Empire. And as I've said before, the Empire is big, and it has plenty of resources to throw around into projects like these. The TIE Hunter isn't necessarily better than a TIE Interceptor, just different. Just so we're clear, a TIE Hunter has about the same durability as a standard TIE Fighter and the same number of lasers, but also two ion cannons and twice the torpedo load of an X-Wing (but from memory, I think only one launcher, so they'd dish the damage out a little slower), they're very fast (speed 5 for sure) and maneuverable, and they have a hyperdrive.

But giving the Hunter counter makes sense, I suppose. They're nimble enough to take some pot shots at a target and return to their original vector quickly. I was too used to thinking of "counter" as turrets firing back at someone, but Armada is more vague with what exactly their play mechanics mean in real terms. Yeah, I guess that makes more sense than Escort. It could make an opponent think twice about whether to target them or something else, and it makes them a slightly more independent unit.

But I'm not keen on those Avenger stats. The TIE Defender is superior to the Avenger in every way; it's faster, more durable, has more firepower, etc.. The Defender is literally the next model in the standard TIE line after the Avenger, so of course it's going to be better. The only downside to the Defender is it has a bigger profile. The easiest way to understand the Avenger is as a faster, more maneuverable X-Wing (that can also equip a beam weapon), because it's the same as the X-Wing in most other respects. Basically, what I am saying is everything the Avenger can do, the Defender can do better. So it doesn't make sense in my mind to make the Avenger a better dogfighter.

I certainly agree that most Galaxies ships are garbage, at least as they are depicted in that game. Most of them don't even seem to get scale right (making things too big so it's easier to hit opponents, and more approachable for casual players, because some need interiors and the interiors in RPGs tend to have funny proportions, and because they were allowing ships to be modded and that leaving lots of extra room was probably the easiest way for them to do it).

1 minute ago, Knightcrawler said:

But I'm not keen on those Avenger stats. The TIE Defender is superior to the Avenger in every way; it's faster, more durable, has more firepower, etc.. The Defender is literally the next model in the standard TIE line after the Avenger, so of course it's going to be better. The only downside to the Defender is it has a bigger profile. The easiest way to understand the Avenger is as a faster, more maneuverable X-Wing (that can also equip a beam weapon), because it's the same as the X-Wing in most other respects. Basically, what I am saying is everything the Avenger can do, the Defender can do better. So it doesn't make sense in my mind to make the Avenger a better dogfighter.

Unfortunately, until we get some new canon on the Avenger, this may not be the way it seems, being now that we've got direct statements that the Defender is all due to Thrawn .

I would suggest that the hunter's folding wings are less for "space efficiency" and more for "concealability" - - it's easier to drape foliage, camo netting, etc, over it, than over a regular TIE fighter.

At this point the only imperial squadron I'd like to see is the assault gunboat as an improved bomber. There is also less and less room for extra fighter squadrons since we are running out of room stat-wise, so they'd need to get special rules to make them different. I'd hate to play an Armada game in which every squadron has its own special rule, squadrons slow the game down enough as it is.

12 hours ago, Knightcrawler said:

But I'm not keen on those Avenger stats. The TIE Defender is superior to the Avenger in every way; it's faster, more durable, has more firepower, etc.. The Defender is literally the next model in the standard TIE line after the Avenger, so of course it's going to be better. The only downside to the Defender is it has a bigger profile. The easiest way to understand the Avenger is as a faster, more maneuverable X-Wing (that can also equip a beam weapon), because it's the same as the X-Wing in most other respects. Basically, what I am saying is everything the Avenger can do, the Defender can do better. So it doesn't make sense in my mind to make the Avenger a better dogfighter.

For the sake of making them distinct though, that's the route I feel should be taken. At some point the Avenger was more maneuverable/faster than the TIE/D, and I thought pressing them into ultimate space superiority could counterpart the TIE/D.

Defenders are still better from a certain point of view. Two black dice offers more reliable hitting power and the Defender carries bomber- so it hits more things... but it's not very precise when it strikes aces. TIE/Ds are supposed to be better, but I've always felt when taking on enemy fighters, Interceptors do the job so much better. How can this be when TIE/Ds came equipped with concussion missiles and tractor beams in Legends? If the TIE/D and TIE/Av are supposed to be nearly synonymous, then I didn't think there's a problem with the TIE Avenger being the anti-fighter aspect out of the Defender that its lacking now.

The only other thing to do with them I can think of is make them a better AA escort fighter, since the Empire has only the TIE Advanced for escort and it's only a mediocre fighter.

Given that "TIE Avenger" is a nickname and its actual designation is TIE Advanced - it makes sense to use the regular TIE Advanced x1 as a starting point when designing it.