This is a question that has had a little discussion, but I'd like more input on it. When an ability is preceded by a melee or ranged attack symbol, at what point in the timing chart do you activate that ability? I'm currently considering 2 abilities in particular.

• Berserkers: " {Melee Attack} You may suffer 1 wound to gain Lethal 1 for this {melee attack}. Limit twice per {melee attack} ."
• Know Your Enemy: " {Melee Attack} You may spend 1 inspiration token to reroll 1 die. {Unique Surge} Receive 1 inspiration token."

The rules have this to say about abilities:

• 1.1 "If a unit’s ability is preceded by a melee ( ? ) icon, it can use that ability when performing a melee attack ( ? ) action."
• 83.5 "A “when” effect occurs at the moment that a specified event occurs and cannot occur again during that instance of the event."

My reading of these rules is that you have to activate these abilities as soon as you begin the attack sequence. But the more I think about it, the more that seems a little sour. I first considered this with Berserkers. Even though Lethal 1 doesn't trigger until later during the attack, gaining that keyword might as well happen at the beginning of the attack. That's a bummer, though, because you could end up suffering wounds without needing to, depending on what you end up rolling.

When I considered Know Your Enemy, it seemed a little different because you don't actually gain anything at the moment you begin the attack sequence, so you would spend the inspiration and then have to wait to get the reroll from it. Since rerolls happen at step 4 or 5*, it would make much more sense to have the inspiration spent at the time you would normally reroll.

Do you think 1.1 should say "while performing a melee attack" instead of "when?" Or do these abilities truly require you to gamble by paying a cost before knowing if it will pay off?

*As an aside, at what step would you reroll for Know Your Enemy? Step 4 is specifically rerolling for extra ranks, so would the reroll from upgrades happen during step 5 when you modify dice? Or do all reroll abilities belong in step 4?

How can you reroll dice or spend surges as soon as the attack begins? You haven't rolled any dice yet. I'd say the ability becomes active as soon as you begin an attack, and remains active for the duration of the attack. I would let you use Berserkers or Know Your Enemy at any point during a melee attack.

So then 1.1 needs an erratum, right?

I agree with Contrapulator. You can't spend surge you haven't rolled yet, and you can't reroll dice you haven't rolled yet. Know your enemy is moot if you do it at the beginning as you haven't rolled dice yet.

While we're on the topic of Berserker's ability. It's my understanding Lethal is just one additional hit on top of everything, right? Roll 3 hits, and you are 3 wide, that's 9 hits, lethal 2 makes it 11 hits, is this correct?

Quote

Timing - 83.2 An effect that modifies dice or adds icons to the attack pool is resolved during the “Modify Dice” step of an attack.

Modifying Dice - 51.3 Players resolve abilities that change the results of a die during the “Modify Dice” step of an attack.

With these two bits, reading through the various combat abilities, I don't see much of a timing conflict. The spend to re-roll portion of Know Your Enemy would hit during the Modify Dice step of an attack, the same spot as Forutna's Dice, Eagle-Banner Bearer, Ardus' Fury, and the Spined Thresher ability.

If the berserker's ability were simply worded as suffer a would to add a damage to the damage pool, it would trigger during the Modify Dice step. I have a feeling it was a an intentional decision to make it gaining the keyword instead, thus putting the decision point at the start of the attack action, so that the decision process is a bit more involved.

48 minutes ago, Curlycross said:

I agree with Contrapulator. You can't spend surge you haven't rolled yet, and you can't reroll dice you haven't rolled yet. Know your enemy is moot if you do it at the beginning as you haven't rolled dice yet.

Well, the strict interpretation isn't that you roll dice during the beginning, it's that you must pay the cost to initiate the cost at the beginning, but that gives you an extra reroll when you get to the reroll step.

The surge ability works just like every other surge ability. If you notice, they are all linked to a melee attack, ranged attack, or both.

1 hour ago, Curlycross said:

While we're on the topic of Berserker's ability. It's my understanding Lethal is just one additional hit on top of everything, right? Roll 3 hits, and you are 3 wide, that's 9 hits, lethal 2 makes it 11 hits, is this correct?

That's how it works. It adds damage technically. Hits are multiplied by threat to equal damage, then Lethal kicks in, then you assign damage to get wounds.

21 minutes ago, Click5 said:

That's how it works. It adds damage technically. Hits are multiplied by threat to equal damage, then Lethal kicks in, then you assign damage to get wounds.

So basically if you're attacking something and you need one or two more hits to kill them off then you'd obviously want those, but you would have needed to choose to do the sacrifice beforehand? Lethal adds to the total or is a +1 +1 at the end? IE is it 11 hits, or is it 9 hits, and then two 1 hits... ?

3 minutes ago, Curlycross said:

So basically if you're attacking something and you need one or two more hits to kill them off then you'd obviously want those, but you would have needed to choose to do the sacrifice beforehand? Lethal adds to the total or is a +1 +1 at the end? IE is it 11 hits, or is it 9 hits, and then two 1 hits... ?

I'm not sure how the timing works on the Berserkers ability actually, @Budgernaut brought up some good questions.

Lethal is not adding hits, hits are what show up on dice and modifier dials that are then multiplied by threat. Lethal is adding damage to the "damage pool" which is a rule addendum they added in the Latari Elves insert. So basically, say you were attacking a Carrion Lancer with a 2x1 and rolled one hit symbol on your dice roll, your thread would multiple this by 2 to create 2 damage in your damage pool, Lethal 1, for example, would then kick in to add 1 more damage to the pool, allowing you to put a wound on the Lancer.

Hopefully, you wont have to trigger the Berserkers ability before any dice are rolled. That would turn it from meh to blah

1 hour ago, Click5 said:

I'm not sure how the timing works on the Berserkers ability actually, @Budgernaut brought up some good questions.

Lethal is not adding hits, hits are what show up on dice and modifier dials that are then multiplied by threat. Lethal is adding damage to the "damage pool" which is a rule addendum they added in the Latari Elves insert. So basically, say you were attacking a Carrion Lancer with a 2x1 and rolled one hit symbol on your dice roll, your thread would multiple this by 2 to create 2 damage in your damage pool, Lethal 1, for example, would then kick in to add 1 more damage to the pool, allowing you to put a wound on the Lancer.

Hopefully, you wont have to trigger the Berserkers ability before any dice are rolled. That would turn it from meh to blah

Agreed, if losing one or two berserkers to make sure I secure a wound or wounds on a high priority target are an option I'd do it, but if I had to choose before I rolled, I probably would only do it if I knew max potential was 1-2 damage shy.

I think they forgot they were going to define when, when they wrote 1.1.

I think the issue you're having here is with "When", and what step it relates to.

The phrase is "when performing an attack". Under RR-10 "Attack" it reads: "To perform an attack, the unit resolves the following steps in order". Each and every one of these steps is a trigger for "When performing an attack". When I choose my attack profile I am performing my attack, when I roll my dice I am performing my attack, when I modify my dice I am performing my attack, etc, etc.

"When performing an attack" is literally at any step of the attack, and this meshes perfectly with all pertinent entries in the RRG. Obviously there are some steps that make sense to trigger an ability during and some steps that don't.

For Berserkers, you would go ahead and wait until AFTER the dice pool is rolled and Hits spent to generate the Damage Pool (Step 9), at which point you would sacrifice 1-2 models, gain Lethal 1-2, and add that to the Damage Pool.

@Tvayumat the problem there is you are using english, not 83.5 for your when.

8 minutes ago, Darthain said:

@Tvayumat the problem there is you are using english, not 83.5 for your when.

I am absolutely 100% using the RRG definition of the word "When"

A "when" effect occurs at the moment that a specified event occurs and cannot occur again during that instance of the event.

The event in question is "Performing an attack". Not rolling dice, not declaring a target, not modifying dice.

"Performing an attack" involves executing each and every step covered under RR-10, and each and every step of performing that attack is a legal trigger for the Berserker ability.

EVERYTHING that happens over the course of the attack, each and every step, falls under the umbrella of one single event, that event being "Performing an attack."

I can't say I'm convinced, but I'll take it for now.

23 hours ago, Tvayumat said:

I am absolutely 100% using the RRG definition of the word "When"

A "when" effect occurs at the moment that a specified event occurs and cannot occur again during that instance of the event.

The event in question is "Performing an attack". Not rolling dice, not declaring a target, not modifying dice.

"Performing an attack" involves executing each and every step covered under RR-10, and each and every step of performing that attack is a legal trigger for the Berserker ability.

EVERYTHING that happens over the course of the attack, each and every step, falls under the umbrella of one single event, that event being "Performing an attack."

Lawyered.

17 hours ago, Budgernaut said:

I can't say I'm convinced, but I'll take it for now.

Nor am I, but I also don't feel FFG intends us to gamble either, hence thinking 1.1 is incorrect.

3 hours ago, Curlycross said:

Lawyered.

I specialize in Bird Law, mostly.

5 minutes ago, Tvayumat said:

I specialize in Bird Law, mostly.

Bird is the Word?

On ‎10‎/‎3‎/‎2017 at 4:27 PM, oda204 said:

Bird is the Word?

Bird is the word, is the word, is the word.