9 minutes ago, SabineKey said:

Still waiting.

Sigh. It's "moral fiber." "Moral fibber" is arguably an oxymoron, and even if not, it's a funny Freudian slip.

Quote

Again, you ignore posters like me who are defending flying meta lists under the banner of fun.

No, I'm not ignoring you. You have mentioned fun ... but only for the person flying the meta-cheese. That's my point.

There's a divide: people who think both players have some responsibility for the enjoyment of both players, and people who think the other player bears 100% of the responsibility for their own fun.

The only fun your opponent can enhance is how they act during the game, and it is the only thing that they should control. I get you dont like flying against meta lists. Thats fine. But your opponent probably enjoys flying meta lists just as much. And by scorning him, you are saying your fun is more important than his fun. And that is WRONG. If you dont want to play your casual list against a meta list thats fine. Just decline the game. Dont get hurt when you lose to an optimal list with an unoptimized list, because the fun he was having is different from yours, and you wanted him to give up his fun for your fun. Just decline the game.

2 minutes ago, SmittLoaf said:

The only fun your opponent can enhance is how they act during the game

No. That's the only fun that some opponents choose to enhance.

Thanks for illustrating my point so perfectly.

Way to purposefully misconstrue my point. I'm proud of you

16 minutes ago, Jeff Wilder said:

Sigh. It's "moral fiber." "Moral fibber" is arguably an oxymoron, and even if not, it's a funny Freudian slip.

Not a Freudian slip. Just bad spelling.

16 minutes ago, Jeff Wilder said:

No, I'm not ignoring you. You have mentioned fun ... but only for the person flying the meta-cheese. That's my point.

There's a divide: people who think both players have some responsibility for the enjoyment of both players, and people who think the other player bears 100% of the responsibility for their own fun.

A) I have said I am willing to make concessions when asked, as long as the other player is willing to do the same. Both sides must be willing to change, not all lumped on the "offending" party.

B) I do stand more on the side of people being responsible for their own fun. I live by it and have been having way more fun for doing so. Does this totally remove the other play from the equation? No. But it is shifting responsibility to someone I can actually count on and demand changes from. Me. And if I'm having fun with this philosophy while still willing to work with people who are willing to work with me, how is this bad?

Look, I'm all for communication. That's not what this is about.

You can't communicate with the 12 other unknown people who will attend a quarterly kit tournament, unless the kit TO is willing to place restrictions in all communications about the tournament.

This is about the fight for the feel of a community. (And, for what it's worth, in my community it is a fight I am losing. And the community is dying. And the two things are not un-related.)

As I observed:

People -- and by that I mean nearly everyone -- used to bring lists they thought would be strong, and fun to fly, and fly them -- trying to win! -- to see if they were right.

Now people -- and by that I mean a majority -- bring lists they know are over-powered -- because they have won big tournaments again and again -- because they want to win.

Those are two different feels for a community. I know which one I prefer.

Now you can say, "Well, that's your preference, and obviously isn't other people's," and of course that's correct. But as their preference begins to win out, the community loses more and more people with different preferences, and is dying. So, yeah ... congrats, meta-cheesers.

@Jeff Wilder

I think your care for the community and culture is fine.

Moving the conversation a different direction though.

What is your favorite list(s) to fly during a kit tournament or casual night? Basically what kind of ships are you bringing to the table?

2 minutes ago, Jeff Wilder said:

People -- and by that I mean nearly everyone -- used to bring lists they thought would be strong, and fun to fly, and fly them -- trying to win! -- to see if they were right.

Now people -- and by that I mean a majority -- bring lists they know are over-powered -- because they have won big tournaments again and again -- because they want to win.

And you think these are always different people? That someone who wants to see if they were right about a list can't decide that for a tournament (or even multiple) that they want to use a known list that fits their play style or to see if they can fly it right?

You are ascribing a singular motivation for a decision that can have many contributing factors.

8 minutes ago, Boom Owl said:

@Jeff Wilder

I think your care for the community and culture is fine.

Moving the conversation a different direction though.

What is your favorite list(s) to fly during a kit tournament or casual night? Basically what kind of ships are you bringing to the table?

Swarms. Oh my god, the endorphin release when i keep six TIE variants in formation and get to Crack-Box someone in.. hnng...

Edit: Oh, look - an example of a "good" (not great) list where I'm having (too much) fun.. And to think, a year ago that list would super competitive.

Just now, Rinzler in a Tie said:

Swarms. Oh my god, the endorphin release when i keep six TIE variants in formation and get to Crack-Box someone in.. hnng...

100% Agree Swarms are fun.

So for that example.

HLC Dash is part of the corresponding "cheese" correct?

Just now, Boom Owl said:

100% Agree Swarms are fun.

So for that example.

HLC Dash is part of the corresponding "cheese" correct?

And Dengar.
Would not be a fun experience and would totally kill my b-- buzz.

1 minute ago, Rinzler in a Tie said:

And Dengar.
Would not be a fun experience and would totally kill my b-- buzz.

Right makes sense in a casual game thatd be rough unless ya wanted the challenge.

So what about a Kit-Tournament.

HLC Dash ok there?

6 minutes ago, Boom Owl said:

What is your favorite list(s) to fly during a kit tournament or casual night? Basically what kind of ships are you bringing to the table?

Me, personally? I don't have one. I fly all three factions nearly equally. (In fact, because I took AdvS Brobots to two or three tournaments -- in a year -- I became known locally as "the Brobots guy." (It's also partially because I fly them pretty well.) I take a different list to nearly every tournament I attend, with the exception being, "Well, this list is fun, and I think it's stronger than my crappy flying showed, so let's try again."

I'm not an innovative list-builder, but I'm above-average strong with maneuvering and anticipation, so my MO in list-building is to take individually strong ships and shuffle them into odd or new configurations.

Just now, Boom Owl said:

Right makes sense in a casual game thatd be rough unless ya wanted the challenge.

So what about a Kit-Tournament.

HLC Dash ok there?

I'm not sure where you're from, but here in 'Merica players can bring whatever they want to a kit tournament..

But my non-cheeky answer is yes. In my opinion..?

6 minutes ago, Jeff Wilder said:

Me, personally? I don't have one. I fly all three factions nearly equally. (In fact, because I took AdvS Brobots to two or three tournaments -- in a year -- I became known locally as "the Brobots guy." (It's also partially because I fly them pretty well.) I take a different list to nearly every tournament I attend, with the exception being, "Well, this list is fun, and I think it's stronger than my crappy flying showed, so let's try again."

I'm not an innovative list-builder, but I'm above-average strong with maneuvering and anticipation, so my MO in list-building is to take individually strong ships and shuffle them into odd or new configurations.

Ok this is helping. So Brobots is one list you fly alot cool. That gives good perspectives. Used to be pretty metal.

What kind of other odd configurations? What are your favorite individually strong ships to build around?

16 minutes ago, Jeff Wilder said:

People -- and by that I mean nearly everyone -- used to bring lists they thought would be strong, and fun to fly, and fly them -- trying to win! -- to see if they were right.

Now people -- and by that I mean a majority -- bring lists they know are over-powered -- because they have won big tournaments again and again -- because they want to win.

Those are two different feels for a community. I know which one I prefer.

I agree with your preference as it's one I prefer, but I can't fault other players for bringing what they like/feel is fun. That said... Maybe you should run/pitch an alternate format to throw a change into the works. We're doing Original Trilogy formats over here which does throwback things to experimentation and brings back original ships. It's been pretty popular. I'll be running one at our local shop as a number of our group couldn't make the last big one and wanted to fly in it.

1 minute ago, Boom Owl said:

Ok this is helping. So Brobots is one list you fly alot cool. That gives good perspectives.

Well, I actually don't fly it a lot. I just flew it more often, with some success.

Quote

What kind of other odd configurations? What are your favorite individually strong ships to build around?

For example, I loved flying Jess and three Snap-Juke A-wings. I enjoyed a similar Snap-Tac Rhymer and two Snap Zetas. But I flew them only a few times each. I don't have favorite ships to fly so much as I have ships I won't fly (JM5Ks, nowadays; Nym), and ships I just haven't had a chance to fly. My most recent Store Champ list was a non-Kylo RAC and Quickdraw. My most recent Regionals Top 8 list was Biggs-Keyan-Wes.

You're trying to lead me somewhere to make a point -- dude, I'm a lawyer -- and it'll go much faster, though not necessarily more successfully -- if you just tell me what you're looking for.

4 minutes ago, LagJanson said:

Maybe you should run/pitch an alternate format to throw a change into the works.

I'm not mocking you at all, I promise, but for inside-my-community reasons, this is really, really ironic. I'm just quoting it in case anybody from my local community is paying attention.

X-Wing is fun! Pew Pew Pew!

3 minutes ago, LagJanson said:

I agree with your preference as it's one I prefer, but I can't fault other players for bringing what they like/feel is fun. That said... Maybe you should run/pitch an alternate format to throw a change into the works. We're doing Original Trilogy formats over here which does throwback things to experimentation and brings back original ships. It's been pretty popular. I'll be running one at our local shop as a number of our group couldn't make the last big one and wanted to fly in it.

The organizer in my area is planning on an OT only tournament in future which I'm looking forward to. I think he is also dropping down the points to 85. Should be an interesting experiment. Also went to a generics only tournament that was tons of fun. Some special tournaments like that is fun to sprinkle in.

1 minute ago, Rytackle said:

X-Wing is fun! Pew Pew Pew!

Get out of here you filthy casual...

aaaaand topic!

2 minutes ago, Rytackle said:

X-Wing is fun! Pew Pew Pew!

Pssshhhh coming from the guy who used Plot Armor

Seriously though great timing we needed that.

3 minutes ago, Rytackle said:

X-Wing is fun! Pew Pew Pew!

Your opinion is valid when you win a SC with Talonbane Cobra.

1 minute ago, Rinzler in a Tie said:

aaaaand topic!

Yea agreed lets close this one up folks. Nothing to see here.