Vader at PS 11, title....computer,engine,VI,..yadda yadda yadda....I.E. the double action , double reposition high PS ace of our dreams

then lets flesh out a squad... say, some TLT because...this is x wing after all so you ned to stack some nonsense turret B.S. into the squad.

so, sienar "how cheap can i get a TLT guy" plus TLT and the lightweight frame to let it maybe live beyond the first round of getting shot at.

and that gives 40 points to play around.suddenly this gets fun. That could be a naked patrol leader. moar turret, beefy platform.

or...kylo in an upsilon with some goodies....

or observe the following....a bounty hunter with the bomb title, bomblet generator a rebel captive or a kylo crew and eh...tractor beam.

40 points is plenty for options.

what I`m getting at is, Building out a list like this is starting to feel like Imperials have more options than it may seem.

I‘m just here to point out that VI Vader has 2 actions unlike Soontir, and no Autothrusters/4agility.

So VI Vader is more expensive for less oomph and less defense. He can carry Harpoons though.

PS 11 Vader is a totally different ship to Soontir... totally. They're broadly comparable in that they're high PS arc dodging aces, but beyond that?

Prime Soontir (with Title, Stealth Device, Autothrusters, PTL and Palpatine) was all about dodging arcs and, even if you could catch him in arc, using his turtled up, super modified 4 defence dice to shrug off attacks. Soontir won games by chipping away with relatively anaemic offence and outlasting his opponent.

Vader can't take in that role because he simply doesn't survive the way Soontir did - no Autothrusters, no stealth device, rarely backed up by Palp and with somewhat more potent offence thanks to ATC. Vader these days wins games by avoiding reveal bombs and arc dodgers by moving and reacting after PS10, and by using his offence to PS kill the big threats on the table (as well as alpha striking at almost the highest possible PS in the game and hopefully preventing those threats from being able to do any damage). He can't turtle up, and he will gradually lose health to PWTs and TLTs at a rate Soontir just didn't.

I don't disagree that Vader is a decent meta call right now, and I think you're right that there are underexplored options for Imperials, but Vader today plays a fundamentally different role to Soontir in his heyday.

7 minutes ago, MacchuWA said:

I don't disagree that Vader is a decent meta call right now, and I think you're right that there are underexplored options for Imperials, but Vader today plays a fundamentally different role to Soontir in his heyday.

Indeed. He's less elusive (massively so) and I think it's fair to say that even 2 shield tokens don't mitigate that. However he delivers a much larger punch - both with cruise missiles and even his standard attack with that lovely automatic critical (even nastier paired with the grandkid).

Between Vader and Quickdraw, 'high PS offensive power with a short half-life' is very much an imperial thing these days - and that goes double for a lot of other imperial archetypes when you think about it; it's a label which can be broadly pinned on crack shot TIE swarms (or mini-swarms), bombers with missiles, Lambda or Upsilon shuttles burning their own health with electronic baffle to stay on target or a decimator doing the same with vader (crew) to hammer the opponent with criticals.

Still I would always prefer Vader with Intensity

Just now, IG88E said:

Still I would always prefer Vader with Intensity

Me too. It‘s such a great build - and so expensive if fully fitted out

Forget VI, I faced a couple of Intensity/Engine Upgrade/ATC Vaders at UK Nationals, was impressive, most impressive

1 hour ago, FTS Gecko said:

Forget VI, I faced a couple of Intensity/Engine Upgrade/ATC Vaders at UK Nationals, was impressive, most impressive

It's super good, it sucks the ps race is back on because I too prefer intensity, vader needed access to one more action, but right when they give us the perfect action upgrade for him, the ps race starts back up

8 hours ago, Velvetelvis said:

Vader at PS 11, title....computer,engine,VI,..yadda yadda yadda....I.E. the double action , double reposition high PS ace of our dreams

then lets flesh out a squad... say, some TLT because...this is x wing after all so you ned to stack some nonsense turret B.S. into the squad.

so, sienar "how cheap can i get a TLT guy" plus TLT and the lightweight frame to let it maybe live beyond the first round of getting shot at.

and that gives 40 points to play around.suddenly this gets fun. That could be a naked patrol leader. moar turret, beefy platform.

or...kylo in an upsilon with some goodies....

or observe the following....a bounty hunter with the bomb title, bomblet generator a rebel captive or a kylo crew and eh...tractor beam.

40 points is plenty for options.

what I`m getting at is, Building out a list like this is starting to feel like Imperials have more options than it may seem.

If you play Kylo, you migh not want to have TLTs in the same built... You want your chance to get that crit to be as high as possible. I would switch the TLT for Omega Leader (26 pts instead of 25).

3 hours ago, FTS Gecko said:

Forget VI, I faced a couple of Intensity/Engine Upgrade/ATC Vaders at UK Nationals, was impressive, most impressive

IMO Intensity Vader is much more fun to play but you kinda have to go for VI with so many Nym flying around.

2 hours ago, TheOz said:

It's super good, it sucks the ps race is back on because I too prefer intensity, vader needed access to one more action, but right when they give us the perfect action upgrade for him, the ps race starts back up

Similar problem here, I want to run Poe (PS 9) with Lone Wolf, R2-D2, Advanced Optics (unreleased), AT, and Black One, but I need VI with all of the Nyms running around.

Balance will return to the force with the nerfing of Biggs and jumpmasters, and taking EPT away from the scurgg and replacing it with something like a second missile.

Vader is definitely good, but he's not equivalent to Soontir.

I was debating this squad recently

Special Delivery (96)
Darth Vader — TIE Advanced 29
Veteran Instincts 1
XX-23 S-Thread Tracers 1
Advanced Targeting Computer 1
Engine Upgrade 4
TIE/x1 0
Ship Total: 36

Onyx Squadron Escort — TIE Aggressor 19
Twin Laser Turret 6
Cruise Missiles 3
Lightweight Frame 2
Ship Total: 30

Onyx Squadron Escort — TIE Aggressor 19
Twin Laser Turret 6
Cruise Missiles 3
Lightweight Frame 2
Ship Total: 30

I use the following

Vader- 31

Twin ion engine Mkii

Tie /x1

ATC

Lieutenant colzet-23

Tie /x1

AC

2x Sienar Specialist- 23

synced turrent

Light weight frame

Its not meta worthy but at a casual level its fun and does surprising well as it tends to be hard to focus on one ship. Why? because I fly finger four and try to get the Sienars behind the opposition while they are distracted with the aces.

15 hours ago, BadMotivator said:

Vader is definitely good, but he's not equivalent to Soontir.

I always liked him better. TLT (and multiple 2 dice PWT) is really the only difference between the two. Vader can tank a fat PWT just fine - especially with Palp. Vader should generally win the damage race against a PWT because if it looks like he isn't getting a shot he is out of there.

Vader can take at least some bomb abuse and unlike Soontir can avoid the Bomblet (most of the time).

The other massive difference between the two is the dial. Vader's dial is so much better than Fel's. Yeah Fel's looks good but he is only ever doing green.

I don't think Nym brought Vader back, I think Defenders and K-Wing Bombers brought Vader back. Vader is more Heavy Fighter than Fel (like a Defender) but with the arc dodging options. Fel couldn't punch through a Defender. Back then Vader didn't need VI. Now he does, no matter how much better Predator, Intensity, Line Wolf or Crack Shot actually are. Quickdraw replaced Vader as the best Imperial Heavy Fighter for a time. Now I think you just need both of them.

You have some options

Vader, Quickdraw and Palp. Both Vader and Quickdraw are 11 and Quickdraw is kitted out with all the defensive options.

Vader, Quickdraw and support. Vader and Quickdraw both get Missiles but no chips on Vader. The support can be any number of things. A Kylo TIE Shuttle isn't bad. Pure Sabaac is good. The Yorr Kylo Shuttle is interesting. Another Missile carrier works too.

I actually quite enjoy Vader at 11 with Cruise. Quickdraw at 9 with Expertise and Pure Sabaac. It can do a lot of work. Yeah you'll lose PS every game but at 24pts (Frame and Adapt) he is cheaper than Biggs. That Sabaac can donut Dash like no one else too. It's pretty hilarious.

Soontir is gone and he is never coming back. I think we really just have to face that truth. It would take a monumental anti bomb upgrade to make him playable again and if that happened it would be bad for the game. Making 1 Ship immune to turrets and bombs is as bad as letting ships with turrets have bombs so they can prey on the ships their turrets can't kill.