A friend of mine has just been introduced to Armada. We are both vintage 45+ gamers and don't attend tournaments. He is convinced upgrade cards are a bit of a rip off and are handy just to add flavour. He also states that he thinks playing games witgout upgrade cards is 'how it was designed to play'. We've played XW for years and he always suggests basic pilots with no upgrades for that as well = more ships and a purer game. Strangely enough he understands that he needs upgrades for IA (we only play campaigns). In Armada and XW he plays Imp, I'm a Rebel player. We're already quite invested in it and enjoy it btw with plenty of ships.

Is there any argument (based on hard stats and dice averages) I can use to justify the inclusion of upgrade cards in Armada?

Make a <ridiculously overpowered> list with upgrade cards. Play against his vanilla list. Utterly destroy him. Repeat until he is convinced.

Yes, but that doesn't really prove the game CAN work without them. Are there any stats or anything that will prove that its almost impossible ro take down an ISD2 or MC80C without them, especially if he takes Vader (he knows you must take a Commander).

Hard stats and dice averages seem a rather cold and clinical way to help convince him. How about these instead and appeal to emotion and replay value?

1) Flavour and theme. There's something to be said for having 'Darth Vader' on your 'Devastator' as you chase down 'Leia Organa' on the 'Tantive IV'. Sure you can simply pretend, but it's something else to have the cards out on the table helping to realise that pretense. What's more, the upgrade cards serve to help tell a narrative. What if its Grand Moff Tarkin's last campaign and he's attempting to trap and take down Dodonna once and for all?

2) Diversity. I can see where he's coming from, especially on the X-wing side where there's too many of them now, but in Armada the amount feels doable and they can really change the game beyond simply functioning as temporary rule deviations.

I think his friend feels the design of the upgrade cards are compromised as they are created in a way to force the buying of ships you won't play with. Out of faction ships, or extras of ships past the amount you would play with. So they are not designed with interesting game choices in mind, instead they are just power creep? Is that what he thinks?

How does he feel about the Pelta and Interdictor? I mean particularly with the interdictor, it doesn't do what that ship iconically does without an upgrade card. Thats some proof that the game was designed with upgrade cards in mind.

Commanders are also upgrade cards.. I imagine you play with those.

I feel the argument you have to make with him though, is to talk about how the upgrade cards create more interesting choices during the game, not by how much stronger a ship can get by having them. TRC for example, means those ships will trade their survivablity for damage output.

1 minute ago, redxavier said:

Hard stats and dice averages seem a rather cold and clinical way to help convince him. How about these instead and appeal to emotion and replay value?

1) Flavour and theme. There's something to be said for having 'Darth Vader' on your 'Devastator' as you chase down 'Leia Organa' on the 'Tantive IV'. Sure you can simply pretend, but it's something else to have the cards out on the table helping to realise that pretense. What's more, the upgrade cards serve to help tell a narrative. What if its Grand Moff Tarkin's last campaign and he's attempting to trap and take down Dodonna once and for all?

2) Diversity. I can see where he's coming from, especially on the X-wing side where there's too many of them now, but in Armada the amount feels doable and they can really change the game beyond simply functioning as temporary rule deviations.

I think it's the number of XW cards that have probably swayed him. Plus he hates me bombing the shizzle out if him with my K-wing etc.

Just now, Gallanteer said:

I think it's the number of XW cards that have probably swayed him. Plus he hates me bombing the shizzle out if him with my K-wing etc.

Yeah, that makes sense. How about starting off very limited and restricted. Either only one card on each ship or you can only use the same cards (so that it's still 'balanced'). Then you can vary this and introduce more cards with the next games etc.

It seems your friend has an affinity for brawly-type lists, he might like a list with a ton of MC30s/gladiators with just ordnance experts and external racks with Vader/Cracken or something. However, the assertion upgrades are "rip-offs" seems false simply because the value upgrades can provide is vastly greater than if those points were used towards more naked ships .

If you want hard numbers consider this:

• Ordnance experts roughly increases the average damage output of black dice by 25% assuming you reroll on blanks
• A nebulon frigate with no upgrades rolls about 2.25 damage on average with its front arc unmodified and before defense tokens but rolls more than double that on average with Salvation and TRCs
• An ISD 2 at medium range and no upgrades gets about 6 damage on average, while an ISD 2 with SW7s and Devastator can potentially roll a whopping 11 damage on average if you can find a way to discard all your defense tokens
• Reinforced Blast Doors can repair 3 hull points... that's worth 9 points of engineering

I'm sure I could go on, but there are some upgrades that are a tiny bit more numerically intangible but offer significant strategic benefits such as: Literally almost every single title (Demolisher, Yavaris, Gallant Haven, etc..) and officer (Toryn, Lando, Skilled First Officer, Flight Commander, etc..) , engine techs, advanced proton torpedoes, XI7 turbolasers, electronic counter measures, expanded hangar bays, and the list goes on.

11 minutes ago, homedrone said:

I think his friend feels the design of the upgrade cards are compromised as they are created in a way to force the buying of ships you won't play with. Out of faction ships, or extras of ships past the amount you would play with. So they are not designed with interesting game choices in mind, instead they are just power creep? Is that what he thinks?

How does he feel about the Pelta and Interdictor? I mean particularly with the interdictor, it doesn't do what that ship iconically does without an upgrade card. Thats some proof that the game was designed with upgrade cards in mind.

Commanders are also upgrade cards.. I imagine you play with those.

I feel the argument you have to make with him though, is to talk about how the upgrade cards create more interesting choices during the game, not by how much stronger a ship can get by having them. TRC for example, means those ships will trade their survivablity for damage output.

Actually, the Interdictor is a solid argument. Without the upgrade cards it really isn't worth fielding.

And yes, he knows and accepts needing a Commander. He's just a bit of a purist.

In my opinion, playing an odd game without upgrades (esp XW) is interesting - we tend to field 2-300 pts each in XW and have huge battles. But ultimately its all a bit bland without upgrades or named pilots (when we play it that way).

That doesn't help the 'the way the game was designed to be played' argument though. The Interdictor does!

I'm more and more of the opinion that X-Wing sucks, if only because the game has devolved into "Which Extended Universe ships that only appeared for maybe two comic books will I win with today?"

On just the ISD alone...

Gunnery Teams - getting two shots out of that delightful ISD front arc. No one is ever going to pick the Advanced Gunnery objective if you've got an ISD in your pool.

Relentless - being able to turn that Command 3 slug into a Command 2 speed demon (for a big ship!)

Electronic Countermeasures - never get the Brace locked down against an Ackbar'ing MC80.

Reinforced Blast Doors - what's better than 11 hull? 14 hull!

Captain Needa - Contain sucks. Evade is great. For two points.

For Raiders...

The squadron-mulching efficiency of Agent Kallus + Flechette Torpedoes should convince anyone who needs some anti-squadron firepower, particularly if the opponent is fond of named characters. Add in the Impetuous title and it's ouch time for Jan Ors.

Gladiators... if he can't understand how awesomely game-breaking the Demolisher title is, then I'm not sure he's actually played Armada.

1 hour ago, rhs2042 said:

Make a <ridiculously overpowered> list with upgrade cards. Play against his vanilla list. Utterly destroy him. Repeat until he is convinced.

--

He's also wrong about Xwing... upgrades are the name of the game there since post wave 6.

Although, he's probably right if the generic chassis' were better both games would be a better game.

I'm still a newb to the game but I've been running relatively vanilla ships, usually 1 or 2 upgrades per ship & ive been doing ok.

It can be played either way, for sure.

But the very virtue of the fact that upgrades are packaged, pointed and included in ships, and you need to take your commander as one... Throws a certain amount of Doubt that Upgrades were " never intended " to be played. Or not part of the game as designed .

In the end, love or hate them, they were designed for and with the game in the first **** place. Or they wouldn't be included or mandated.

Simple. As. That.

To claim otherwise is to be, well, let's face it... rather arrogant in knowing what the very game designers intended.

If you play with no upgrades then most ships are over costed. The available upgrade slots have an effect on the ships base cost so if you don't slap on some upgrades then you've payed for potential that you didn't use.

I think in theory the best way to prove your point is to play a min vs max fight. Meaning the following:

1. Talk. Tell him hes totally allowed to take naked ship with only a commander. Nothin says he can't. The explain to him that upgrades are basically wargear, giving focus and inherant strenght multiplier to the ship (squad, unit, or what ever). It boils down to a quality vs quantity. Ask him where could he use a little extra quality.

2. Show. Tell him to take a fleet his way, you take the best tricked out ships in a synergising fleet you can. Doom pickel, a bwing bomer spawner, mc 30s. Play the fleets be shur to alert him to all of the upgrade funtions when the occur. When the fight is over try to get him to reverse roles.

I really really enjoy the game with VERY few upgrade cards. Just feels a bit less min/max?

Flying with no upgrades is usually ok...unless it's a Mc30. If you're buying it and not putting Ordnance Experts, Advance Proton Torpedo, etc on it, you won't see the glory that is the Mc30.

9 hours ago, Gallanteer said:

A friend of mine has just been introduced to Armada. We are both vintage 45+ gamers and don't attend tournaments. He is convinced upgrade cards are a bit of a rip off and are handy just to add flavour. He also states that he thinks playing games witgout upgrade cards is 'how it was designed to play'. We've played XW for years and he always suggests basic pilots with no upgrades for that as well = more ships and a purer game. Strangely enough he understands that he needs upgrades for IA (we only play campaigns). In Armada and XW he plays Imp, I'm a Rebel player. We're already quite invested in it and enjoy it btw with plenty of ships.

Is there any argument (based on hard stats and dice averages) I can use to justify the inclusion of upgrade cards in Armada?

But why would you?

By not taking upgrades you're changing the flavor of the game - and limiting it to repetitiveness.

Upgrades add so many options, so much variety, so much change...

Do you also play without objectives? How about alternating initiative?

VSD with Warlord, Disposable capacitors, spinal armaments with a CF dial.... 8 dice at max range...

so what about the officer cards that allow you to change your top dial (or discard them all)? Or how about the ones which help you plan what your going to do? (Issard)

Then what about Flottilas? esp the rebel ones.... no guns on the basic version all its utilities comes from the upgrade cards... be it repair crews, slicer teams or jamming fields

So I guess what I'm saying is some ships need the upgrade cards to be utilised... on other ships the upgrade cards enhance the tactics and strategies you can use with them.

Some ships need upgrade cards to be viable.

Pelta for the fleet support.

Interdictor for tech cards.

Hammerhead for ordinance.

And there are the ships that aren't so card reliant to be effective.

1 hour ago, slasher956 said:

VSD with Warlord, Disposable capacitors, spinal armaments with a CF dial.... 8 dice at max range...

so what about the officer cards that allow you to change your top dial (or discard them all)? Or how about the ones which help you plan what your going to do? (Issard)

Then what about Flottilas? esp the rebel ones.... no guns on the basic version all its utilities comes from the upgrade cards... be it repair crews, slicer teams or jamming fields

So I guess what I'm saying is some ships need the upgrade cards to be utilised... on other ships the upgrade cards enhance the tactics and strategies you can use with them.

I find the Rebel GR75 to be fine for just pushing squads and anti squad support. Up grade cards just enhance these roles.

14 hours ago, Gallanteer said:

He also states that he thinks playing games without upgrade cards is 'how it was designed to play'.

Huh? That's a very odd argument. Why would game designers design cards if they didn't intend for the game to be played with upgrade cards? The design teams don't change often. FFG also generally tests the core set alongside the first two waves of intended expansions. All those ships and cards get tested together. Upgrade slots are a critical part of the pricing process for ships. If you're not using them, you're often wasting points in that ship.

If the game was designed too be played without uppgrades the there would be no uppgrades. Nothing wrong with going boys before toys in wargames but your friend is flat out wrong and stupid

14 hours ago, Gallanteer said:

A friend of mine has just been introduced to Armada. We are both vintage 45+ gamers and don't attend tournaments. He is convinced upgrade cards are a bit of a rip off and are handy just to add flavour. He also states that he thinks playing games witgout upgrade cards is 'how it was designed to play'. We've played XW for years and he always suggests basic pilots with no upgrades for that as well = more ships and a purer game. Strangely enough he understands that he needs upgrades for IA (we only play campaigns). In Armada and XW he plays Imp, I'm a Rebel player. We're already quite invested in it and enjoy it btw with plenty of ships.

Is there any argument (based on hard stats and dice averages) I can use to justify the inclusion of upgrade cards in Armada?

Put Demo on a Glad.

Put Yavaris on a Neb B.

Play with BTAvenger.

What about h9 against non ECM ships.

xi7?

I mean there are several upgrades that make other ships don't work (specially their Def tokens) as they are intended to do.

On 9/29/2017 at 3:09 AM, Vetnor said:

Some ships need upgrade cards to be viable.

Pelta for the fleet support.

Interdictor for tech cards.

Hammerhead for ordinance.

And there are the ships that aren't so card reliant to be effective.

And the flotillas. They were clearly designed to be nearly useless except they have an upgrade slot unique to them. If we're talking about playing the game "as intended" I doibt the designers intended people to have 4 naked flotillas in a list just to pad their activations.