The game is great, super fun but we always have to find something to complain about, so I want to talk about something that is bothering me and does not seem very balanced, the dashes .. more specifically the mechanics of when it changes the type of conflict the char with dash is sent away bowed ..

See generally I find the game well balanced, and care has been taken so that cards with strong effects always have a cost or condition, for example no card bows another character without a condition, sends away without a condition, kills or cancel an event without a condition.

However the dash characters, who are already quite limited because they can not sign in a type of conflict (which can be a big problem, for example, this makes it even more difficult to attack kuroi mori) has this absurd drawback, from when changing the type of conflict is sent away (ok) bowed (why?).

Basically you have 2 of the strongest effects in the game at the same time, this is very shocking, for example use a captive audience (cost 0) against a political rival, turning a 3 cost char into trash, or attacking rally to the cause/kuroi mori and besides having to make force on your weaker skill, lose those characters, when this happen you can send 1 or 2 low cost chars and sometimes they can hold an army..

Maybe I'm wrong, but look at "Pacifism" for example, is a 2 cost card, attachment (makes it vulnerable), and still it can't be played during a conflict, so they know the power of the "go home bowed" effect.

Some may say high risk, high reward, but no core set character with dash seems to have impressive stats or ability to outweigh this risk.

Can you post the actual rule and location?

2 minutes ago, qwertyuiop said:

Can you post the actual rule and location?

This is what rulebook says about dash:

Dash (–)
In the text of a triggered ability, a dash (–) is used to separate
the criteria that are necessary to use the ability from the effect
of the ability. Any triggering conditions, play restrictions orpermissions, costs, and targeting requirements are denoted
before the dash. The ability’s effect is denoted after the dash.

If a character has a dash (–) for a skill value, that character
cannot participate in conflicts of that type.

Should a character with a dash skill value somehow end up
participating in a conflict of the corresponding type, that
character is immediately removed from the conflict, and
placed in its controller’s home area in a bowed state.
If a character has a dash for a skill value, that skill value
cannot be modified or otherwise changed by card abilities
and effects.
If a skill value for a dash character is required to resolve a
card ability, treat the card as if it had an unmodifiable skill
value of 0.
A character with a dash skill value cannot be a challenger or
challengee in a duel of that skill type. (see D.2 on page 23).

You know this is a risk when you play with a dash character. I don't know that you are forced to play any dash characters, though I could be wrong for all clans, as maybe some have more dash characters than others. I can see complaints on Kuroi Mori since it is reusable, but I feel like running face first into Rally to the Cause is no different than running face first into one of the neutral earth provinces with the wrong conflict type, or a Shameful Display. I don't swing into most provinces expecting to need to break with 10. 10 is a lot. Rally to the cause just triggers once, and depending on your clan, maybe you lose the conflict, maybe not.

If you complaint is because "Single Core" then I think most people will find your point is moot, since single core is not very relevant anymore.

26 minutes ago, L5RBr said:

Some may say high risk, high reward, but no core set character with dash seems to have impressive stats or ability to outweigh this risk.

Matsu Beserker. 3 Mil, 1F. paying 1 fate for a mil statline that shows up for a 3/4 fate cost character is impressive to me.

Or the Horde, which has a mil stat line that isn't seen outside of like three champions.

1 minute ago, RandomJC said:

Matsu Beserker. 3 Mil, 1F. paying 1 fate for a mil statline that shows up for a 3/4 fate cost character is impressive to me.

Or the Horde, which has a mil stat line that isn't seen outside of like three champions.

OK Berserker is 3/- 1 cost, what about Doji whisperer, she is a 0/3, same cost, but she can fight a Mil conflict to defend, or even brake a province alone with banzai, I'm not saying berserker is bad, for now is one of the best choices Lion have.

About the horde, loose 4 fate attacking rally to the cause hurts a lot..

10 minutes ago, Mirith said:

You know this is a risk when you play with a dash character. I don't know that you are forced to play any dash characters, though I could be wrong for all clans, as maybe some have more dash characters than others. I can see complaints on Kuroi Mori since it is reusable, but I feel like running face first into Rally to the Cause is no different than running face first into one of the neutral earth provinces with the wrong conflict type, or a Shameful Display. I don't swing into most provinces expecting to need to break with 10. 10 is a lot. Rally to the cause just triggers once, and depending on your clan, maybe you lose the conflict, maybe not.

If you complaint is because "Single Core" then I think most people will find your point is moot, since single core is not very relevant anymore.

Yes I know the idea is high risk high reward, but for competitive play usually you want minimize risks. For now I am forced to use dash chars playing Lion, since I have small options and really don't want Ikoma Eiji in my decks.

Rally to the cause is not a broken card, as you said it only triggers once.

I just think go home bowed is too strong..

There are few chars with dash in core set, so it's not a big problem..

4 minutes ago, L5RBr said:

OK Berserker is 3/- 1 cost, what about Doji whisperer, she is a 0/3, same cost, but she can fight a Mil conflict to defend, or even brake a province alone with banzai, I'm not saying berserker is bad, for now is one of the best choices Lion have.

About the horde, loose 4 fate attacking rally to the cause hurts a lot..

Yes I know the idea is high risk high reward, but for competitive play usually you want minimize risks. For now I am forced to use dash chars playing Lion, since I have small options and really don't want Ikoma Eiji in my decks.

Rally to the cause is not a broken card, as you said it only triggers once.

I just think go home bowed is too strong..

There are few chars with dash in core set, so it's not a big problem..

I guess my main point now, since I think we agree with "If you don't like Dash characters, don't run them". But I don't really find this thread constructive, unless at this point you are arguing "Dash characters shouldn't be played". Also, given things like Charge, Cav Reserves, Ambush, etc, there are ways to work around the cost benefit analysis

I also think 1 to 1 comparing of dynasty cards across clans in a vacuum can be kind of a mental trap. Theoretically, they should be roughly equal, but there is also a lot of balance/interaction differences between what Lion can play and what Crane can play (Like the difference between Mastu berserker and Doji Whisperer). Maybe Doji whisperer started as a mirror to the berserker, but then playtest found that they needed another body for military in crane clan, and thus why you can slap 2 Katanas on the Whisperer and send her to take provinces.

Why is Berserker not recognized by google. CURSE YOU GOOGLE SPELLCHECK.

2 minutes ago, Mirith said:

I guess my main point now, since I think we agree with "If you don't like Dash characters, don't run them". But I don't really find this thread constructive, unless at this point you are arguing "Dash characters shouldn't be played". Also, given things like Charge, Cav Reserves, Ambush, etc, there are ways to work around the cost benefit analysis

I also think 1 to 1 comparing of dynasty cards across clans in a vacuum can be kind of a mental trap. Theoretically, they should be roughly equal, but there is also a lot of balance/interaction differences between what Lion can play and what Crane can play (Like the difference between Mastu berserker and Doji Whisperer). Maybe Doji whisperer started as a mirror to the berserker, but then playtest found that they needed another body for military in crane clan, and thus why you can slap 2 Katanas on the Whisperer and send her to take provinces.

Why is Berserker not recognized by google. CURSE YOU GOOGLE SPELLCHECK.

Yes, is not about Dash characters are bad choices.. I understand and agree with high risks high rewards, Matsu Barserker can brake a province alone with the Lion stronghold, so it is a good char, I don't question that.

Just questioning why the char go home bowed, it don't seem equilibrate like the rest of the game. If it just go home at least you can use it in other conflict, like rout/outwit.

1 minute ago, L5RBr said:

Yes, is not about Dash characters are bad choices.. I understand and agree with high risks high rewards, Matsu Barserker can brake a province alone with the Lion stronghold, so it is a good char, I don't question that.

Just questioning why the char go home bowed, it don't seem equilibrate like the rest of the game. If it just go home at least you can use it in other conflict, like rout/outwit.

To intentionally make it into a high risk high reward scenario? You know that when you commit your dudes, they will be bowed at the end of the conflict, so they are just going home early, but in the same condition. The Devs won't respond to posts on here and are obliged to be closed mouthed about their design process, so I don't know that you'll ever get your answer.

A dash is also a protection of sort. While you are susceptible to conflict type switches, you are immune to actions that switch the value of military and political strength.

And to being forcibly moved into a conflict.

Or dueled.

I agree with the last 3 posters; the dash is not always a drawback, it can actually be better than a zero in a number of cases. Being immune to Doji Challenger or Mirumoto Raitsugu can be pretty nice. I would say that a dash is probably slightly worse than a zero for card evaluation purposes, but it's not that much worse.

Individual card balance does not matter by itself. The same exact card may have a drastically different impact depending on Clan affiliation. Beyond that, some cards will be great, others situational, and there will be awful cards that will never see play. You will need to prove that dash Characters have a negative impact on the entire environment for this to be an issue.

I'm kinda with you. The current interactions with Dash are alright, except it is odd that they are sent home bowed from a conflict type change. Being sent home is plenty, if there is no fate on the character - or no chance for a conflict of that type again then it won't matter much if they are bowed or not - but why are they forced to be locked out like this?

With mono no aware it is tough to get a reasonably sized field of characters. For this reason a send home mechanic is naturally very strong. For this reason most "send home" abilities are balanced by the fact that the character is still ready so they might participate in another conflict. If you were to bow a character that was sent home with Rout, or Outwit it would be much much more powerful than it is.

Dash characters aren't common at this point, no one is saying the game is broken - but is bowing the dash characters who are sent home a bit too much considering the already powerful effect of switching the conflict type, and sending multiple characters home?

I think the bowing has to occur or it negates the impact of how strong changing the conflict type is. Running face first into a Province with Rally and only coming out with getting your guys sent home unbowed makes that card terrible. You would now have a potential defender and that doesn't really seem like much of a punishment for a failed attack. It also opens up ways to potentially switch the battle back and move your unbowed guys back in.

Switching the conflict type is less common than cards with dashes and conflict switch should result in a big swing in board state. With very few exceptions, most clans have the ability to construct decks without characters with dashes. Those that can't have other ways to protect against getting locked out of certain conflict types, with proper deck construction.

Personaly I think it works fine as is.

Characters with dashes are safe from Yogo Hirue and Doji Challenger drawing them into a fight where they have no skill. It's not without its perks.

2 hours ago, shosuko said:

I'm kinda with you. The current interactions with Dash are alright, except it is odd that they are sent home bowed from a conflict type change. Being sent home is plenty, if there is no fate on the character - or no chance for a conflict of that type again then it won't matter much if they are bowed or not - but why are they forced to be locked out like this?

With mono no aware it is tough to get a reasonably sized field of characters. For this reason a send home mechanic is naturally very strong. For this reason most "send home" abilities are balanced by the fact that the character is still ready so they might participate in another conflict. If you were to bow a character that was sent home with Rout, or Outwit it would be much much more powerful than it is.

Dash characters aren't common at this point, no one is saying the game is broken - but is bowing the dash characters who are sent home a bit too much considering the already powerful effect of switching the conflict type, and sending multiple characters home?

Thats what I'm talking about.

Thank You!

1 hour ago, Ishi Tonu said:

I think the bowing has to occur or it negates the impact of how strong changing the conflict type is. Running face first into a Province with Rally and only coming out with getting your guys sent home unbowed makes that card terrible. You would now have a potential defender and that doesn't really seem like much of a punishment for a failed attack. It also opens up ways to potentially switch the battle back and move your unbowed guys back in.

Switching the conflict type is less common than cards with dashes and conflict switch should result in a big swing in board state. With very few exceptions, most clans have the ability to construct decks without characters with dashes. Those that can't have other ways to protect against getting locked out of certain conflict types, with proper deck construction.

Personaly I think it works fine as is.

I don't understand why Change the conflict type need to be so strong, since you can make it with a 0 cost event, or do every turn with kuroi Mori, to be honest this is exactly why I think it seems unbalanced.

1 hour ago, Ishi Tonu said:

I think the bowing has to occur or it negates the impact of how strong changing the conflict type is. Running face first into a Province with Rally and only coming out with getting your guys sent home unbowed makes that card terrible. You would now have a potential defender and that doesn't really seem like much of a punishment for a failed attack. It also opens up ways to potentially switch the battle back and move your unbowed guys back in.

Switching the conflict type is less common than cards with dashes and conflict switch should result in a big swing in board state. With very few exceptions, most clans have the ability to construct decks without characters with dashes. Those that can't have other ways to protect against getting locked out of certain conflict types, with proper deck construction.

Personaly I think it works fine as is.

Even without bowing the dash characters that are sent home, I think we could agree that changing the conflict type still creates a massive change in board state.

The only issue being taken here is "Why bow them too?" They are already sent home, plans are changed, what everyone thought they could do before is now different. Do the characters need to be bowed too?

6 minutes ago, L5RBr said:

I don't understand why Change the conflict type need to be so strong, since you can make it with a 0 cost event, or do every turn with kuroi Mori, to be honest this is exactly why I think it seems unbalanced.

One practical effect is to encourage balanced forces. In world, samurai are supposed to be great on both the battlefield and court, at least in theory. Having these 'switch the battle type' cards, some repeatable and some not, says that the old-style L5R deck that tries to overpower in one area while ignoring weaknesses in others is no longer the best way to go - it might or might not even be viable. Now, there has been a big change. Old5R decks would concentrate on one victory condition, while now we're talking about one stat. Nevertheless, the high-military, just-enough-politics-to-defend, deck (or vice versa) will face severe weaknesses against decks that are set up to swap conflict types. I suspect that's deliberate.

9 minutes ago, agarrett said:

One practical effect is to encourage balanced forces. In world, samurai are supposed to be great on both the battlefield and court, at least in theory. Having these 'switch the battle type' cards, some repeatable and some not, says that the old-style L5R deck that tries to overpower in one area while ignoring weaknesses in others is no longer the best way to go - it might or might not even be viable. Now, there has been a big change. Old5R decks would concentrate on one victory condition, while now we're talking about one stat. Nevertheless, the high-military, just-enough-politics-to-defend, deck (or vice versa) will face severe weaknesses against decks that are set up to swap conflict types. I suspect that's deliberate.

Sure yeah - He's not saying that switching type is bad, or shouldn't be powerful - he's also not saying that Dash characters are somehow under powered from it.

What he is saying is "is it really necessary to bow the dash characters when they are sent home."

1 hour ago, shosuko said:

Sure yeah - He's not saying that switching type is bad, or shouldn't be powerful - he's also not saying that Dash characters are somehow under powered from it.

What he is saying is "is it really necessary to bow the dash characters when they are sent home."

My answer would be yes.

Hard for me to formulate into words, but not bowing them would be unbalancing to the game, I feel.

I believe they are bowed, because that's the condition for after a battle. Their thought was probably that a dashed character cannot help in any way, thus jumps immediately to the end of the conflict (returns home bowed). A risk/reward thought might have been involved as well, but I suspect it to be minimal. I personally don't see the issue myself, since you could choose to not use dash characters (or use them knowing the risks). I think changing the attack type is intentionally REALLY strong, which is why Captive Audience has 3 influence.

I stand by my opinion that the bowing when sent home is necessary.

Characters with a (-) in a skill are generally above average in the other skill. Allowing a player to build aggressively towards one skill without any real downside would be bad for the game. Imagine I send my 3 charaters with a dash skill into a Province where the conflict gets changed to the other skill and they went home unbowed. That means I can attack at will into Provinces with conflict switch effects because there is no real downside. Or I could even use that trick to my advantage to eject my whole army from a losing battle. Attack political with all my (-) military guys, you defend with your political and look to be in the lead. So I Captive Audience to eject all my guys when I see I'm going to lose. Your guys get bowed, ring fizzles which I could have just picked one I didn't want you to get on offense any ways. You are likely not in a position to attack back, I win the favor and essentially time walk the turn to get a better position and lost nothing.

While the game certainly encourages attacking, it cannot allow people to attack without consequence as that artificially creates board states and gameplay that were purposely left out of design.

The rules on bowing after conflict would need to be changed and in doing so could lead to another loophole to be exploited. The dash skill value is the most "elegant" solution. You cannot be dueled to your dash stat or have it switched/modified in exchange you are prone to conflict type switching effects. I believe it's a fair trade.

I'll gladly just submit this as my agree to disagree post now to save 8+ pages of nonsense and I don't hold any grudges against anyone that disagrees with me past or future...........even though they are wrong.