I play them poorly.

4 minutes ago, thoughttrauma said:

I play them poorly.

Curses! I was just about to say the same thing after coming home from my second consecutive league loss. Unfortunately, I think the answer is to spend more money, so I'll have to get used to losing for the next few months until I can afford to swell the ranks of my undead with more monstrosities.

In the meantime, painting is a blast!

8 hours ago, Tvayumat said:

Problem is, by the time you've bought a big enough unit to put two upgrades on, you've invested so many points that the often disappointing bare damage output probably won't earn them back.

Your mileage may vary. I always like to be proven wrong.

Perhaps you are thinking its raw damage output it is not comparable to similarly costed Daqan units, and you'd be right. However lists like this one are designed about shutting down the damage output of the opposition list at which point its own damage output is, literally, infinity higher. So the opportunity cost of not doing as much damage is counter acted by the gain in lowering the enemy units own damage output.

I've had success with these unit types against full infantry spearstars lists and also the whirling cavalry lists of doom Hawthorn enables.

16 hours ago, Click5 said:

It's insanely damaging, but I had a few problems when I was running it.

Carrion Lancers dial is kind of mediocre for a damage dealer. Attacking at 5 is slower than just about everything so they are going to whittle you down in melee. This means you really need to get a charge off, but one of the main perks of their dial is that you can rally or skill then fly 3 straight into someone. Also, they have no wheel or reform modifier to reposition after you kill whatever you were aiming at, so it's slow getting back into the action.

More importantly, points. 78 points is **** near half your list, but while they are vest resilient, as the main focus of your army they will take casualties, and the way their points are structured is a bit harsh. Lose a single tray and you give 22 points to your opponent. 3 trays is 41 points! I haven't gone through and checked all the other units, but my guess would be that's at least the highest end in the game. Makes tournament scoring tough for you

in terms of damage, not many un-augmented units can take the damage of a lance, 3x2 unit of lancers has 54 damage (if you are dealing wounds they hurt more but there is less opportunity to deal wounds than damage, especially against daqan) a 4x3 reanimate block which is really the only other waiqar option that can get close to the damage out put is 48 damage, 53 if it has a lancer in it, then with the upgrades, points for points they cost similar, and lose points similar. but then the worm can deal damage up to 21 damage in the MCW+CI build, reanimates can deal 16 in theirs and only gain another die with MoI or ardus which would push them to 24 with one of them and 32 with both of them, it is more reliable as they would get an additional reroll but running both of those upgrades that unit would become extremely costly. And your charge range is much shorter.

The biggest learning I have had with my archers is that they work best shooting through the gaps in your front line, not being on your front line. As nice as it would be to get a volley or two off before the enemy engages you I find this is easier said than done with the way initiative works. I have had good success using them to shoot at enemies engaged with my troops even when factoring in the moral test (waiqar often negate the test anyway).

Using a blight generator (deathcaller, support lancer, simultaneous orders) and deploying away from Kari can muck up Cav pretty well.

I also like using metered March and dailing in a 7 move and only moving a mm.

11 minutes ago, TheWiseGuy said:

The biggest learning I have had with my archers is that they work best shooting through the gaps in your front line, not being on your front line. As nice as it would be to get a volley or two off before the enemy engages you I find this is easier said than done with the way initiative works. I have had good success using them to shoot at enemies engaged with my troops even when factoring in the moral test (waiqar often negate the test anyway).

Using a blight generator (deathcaller, support lancer, simultaneous orders) and deploying away from Kari can muck up Cav pretty well.

I also like using metered March and dailing in a 7 move and only moving a mm.

Great points. One way to get your archers further forward is to deploy them up front with a single carrion lancers behind. You can move through friendly units as long as there's never more than one tray overlapping, so you can avoid getting everything bunched up this way.

2 hours ago, jek said:

in terms of damage, not many un-augmented units can take the damage of a lance, 3x2 unit of lancers has 54 damage (if you are dealing wounds they hurt more but there is less opportunity to deal wounds than damage, especially against daqan) a 4x3 reanimate block which is really the only other waiqar option that can get close to the damage out put is 48 damage, 53 if it has a lancer in it, then with the upgrades, points for points they cost similar, and lose points similar. but then the worm can deal damage up to 21 damage in the MCW+CI build, reanimates can deal 16 in theirs and only gain another die with MoI or ardus which would push them to 24 with one of them and 32 with both of them, it is more reliable as they would get an additional reroll but running both of those upgrades that unit would become extremely costly. And your charge range is much shorter.

Not sure your entirely following my point on tournament scoring, which is most assuredly my fault

Putting upgrades aside, a 3x2 Carrion Lancer unit will give your opponent 22 points after losing one tray (possible 9 damage suffered), a 4x3 unit of Reanimates gives your opponent 14 points after losing 3 tray (12 damage, less susceptible to mortal strikes)

After losing 3 trays, which by the way doesn't impact their danger much at all as they are still at 3 threat, the Carrion Lancers give the opponent 41 points, and that's a possible 27 damage suffered at most. The 4x3 unit will give the opponent 29 points after losing 6 trays, which would be 24 damage suffered. And this isn't taking into account any Regeneration, arguably making the Reanimate unit more survivable in some cases.

So while the starting point cost can be roughly the same, the rate at which your opponent is scoring points for killing your units is tilted drastically towards the Carrion Lancer.

I've played in two tournaments now with a 3x2 Lancer unit and in both I lost a game, because when round 8 ended, even though I had 2 or 3 Lancers left and was in a stronger position, I lost 6-5 on points because of how valuable the Carrion Lancers are for the opponent.

20 hours ago, Vineheart01 said:

i rarely see Ardus not rip something a new one. The people that only see him as a listbuilder perk are either too afraid of losing him or just had really, really bad luck with him the first few times.

Sometimes Cavalries one hit him... (or just barely thanks to +1 Armor and then he dies next turn because of a small group with a hexer)...

6 minutes ago, Curlycross said:

Sometimes Cavalries one hit him... (or just barely thanks to +1 Armor and then he dies next turn because of a small group with a hexer)...

i have no idea what you are talking about

1 hour ago, Click5 said:

Not sure your entirely following my point on tournament scoring, which is most assuredly my fault

Putting upgrades aside, a 3x2 Carrion Lancer unit will give your opponent 22 points after losing one tray (possible 9 damage suffered), a 4x3 unit of Reanimates gives your opponent 14 points after losing 3 tray (12 damage, less susceptible to mortal strikes)

After losing 3 trays, which by the way doesn't impact their danger much at all as they are still at 3 threat, the Carrion Lancers give the opponent 41 points, and that's a possible 27 damage suffered at most. The 4x3 unit will give the opponent 29 points after losing 6 trays, which would be 24 damage suffered. And this isn't taking into account any Regeneration, arguably making the Reanimate unit more survivable in some cases.

So while the starting point cost can be roughly the same, the rate at which your opponent is scoring points for killing your units is tilted drastically towards the Carrion Lancer.

I've played in two tournaments now with a 3x2 Lancer unit and in both I lost a game, because when round 8 ended, even though I had 2 or 3 Lancers left and was in a stronger position, I lost 6-5 on points because of how valuable the Carrion Lancers are for the opponent.

You raise a valid point. My experience shows me that getting a 9-2 or 8-3 scoring is quite rare. Runewars seems balanced around the concept of "stealing" points from units. I attempte to destroy 1 tray from every unit my opponent has, and thats taken a 9-2 table wipe into a 6-5 table wipe many, many times. Carrion Lancers are one of my favorite tools for doing that. They have a very versatile dial, and surprising speed options. Theyre resilient enough to weather a ranged attack barrage and still be effective. I play them back, waiting for an opportune moment.

3 hours ago, Bhelliom said:

Great points. One way to get your archers further forward is to deploy them up front with a single carrion lancers behind. You can move through friendly units as long as there's never more than one tray overlapping, so you can avoid getting everything bunched up this way.

As long as you only overlap one tray of the unit being traveled through.

You still can't jump over the unit if you'll overlap two trays, so you have to be sure to offset to one side or the other.

1 hour ago, Tvayumat said:

As long as you only overlap one tray of the unit being traveled through.

You still can't jump over the unit if you'll overlap two trays, so you have to be sure to offset to one side or the other.

Correct. Although it also gave me the funny idea of using the archers' speed-2 shift to hide behind the carrion lancer.

13 hours ago, Click5 said:

So while the starting point cost can be roughly the same, the rate at which your opponent is scoring points for killing your units is tilted drastically towards the Carrion Lancer.

I've played in two tournaments now with a 3x2 Lancer unit and in both I lost a game, because when round 8 ended, even though I had 2 or 3 Lancers left and was in a stronger position, I lost 6-5 on points because of how valuable the Carrion Lancers are for the opponent.

Just quoted because this is a really good point. Well though through, I hadnt gotten to that level of analysis so thanks for the insight.

On 29/09/2017 at 7:26 AM, Bhelliom said:

Great points. One way to get your archers further forward is to deploy them up front with a single carrion lancers behind. You can move through friendly units as long as there's never more than one tray overlapping, so you can avoid getting everything bunched up this way.

Really!? That's legit. So move the lancer forward through the archers? Or shift back through lancer?

As a heads up it would have to be a speed 2 shift, or a 2 march for that matter. You can't ever move through another tray with the Straight 1 template as it's exactly the size of a base

4 hours ago, Click5 said:

As a heads up it would have to be a speed 2 shift, or a 2 march for that matter. You can't ever move through another tray with the Straight 1 template as it's exactly the size of a base

The other problem is 2 will be in contact, and I do not believe that is legal. You need to clear, which 2, by definition, cannot, it can at most go contact to opposite Contact (again, I would think this is not legal for a friendly unit)

14 minutes ago, Darthain said:

The other problem is 2 will be in contact, and I do not believe that is legal. You need to clear, which 2, by definition, cannot, it can at most go contact to opposite Contact (again, I would think this is not legal for a friendly unit)

Oh yeah duh, this is what I was thinking in my head. Thanks for the correction

Regarding the 2-speed leapfrog maneuver: (Note that this only works if you're moving over a single tray)

18 Collision After a unit performs a march or shift action, if it is touching an obstacle that it was not touching before performing that action, it has collided with that obstacle.

No collision because they were touching before.

55.5 If the unit would overlap no more than a single tray of an allied unit during a move and does not overlap any part of that allied unit at the end of the move, that allied unit is not treated as an obstacle and does not cause a collision. To complete this movement, the unit may need to be picked up and moved over the allied unit.

No collision because they are touching, not overlapping.

2 hours ago, Contrapulator said:

Regarding the 2-speed leapfrog maneuver: (Note that this only works if you're moving over a single tray)

18 Collision After a unit performs a march or shift action, if it is touching an obstacle that it was not touching before performing that action, it has collided with that obstacle.

No collision because they were touching before.

55.5 If the unit would overlap no more than a single tray of an allied unit during a move and does not overlap any part of that allied unit at the end of the move, that allied unit is not treated as an obstacle and does not cause a collision. To complete this movement, the unit may need to be picked up and moved over the allied unit.

No collision because they are touching, not overlapping.

Doesn't work, the jigsaws make a tray longer than 1

@Darthain • If the only part of a unit that would overlap an obstacle is a connector on one of the unit’s side edges, the unit can be slightly nudged directly away from the obstacle such that the connector no longer overlaps the obstacle. Then, the movement proceeds as normal. (When moving sideways, this rule applies to the connectors on the front and back edges of the unit instead of the side edges.)

Shoot, I just noticed this rule says ignore SIDE connectors if you're moving forward... so I guess it doesn't work after all. Anyway, we're getting far off topic, I fear.

18 minutes ago, Contrapulator said:

@Darthain • If the only part of a unit that would overlap an obstacle is a connector on one of the unit’s side edges, the unit can be slightly nudged directly away from the obstacle such that the connector no longer overlaps the obstacle. Then, the movement proceeds as normal. (When moving sideways, this rule applies to the connectors on the front and back edges of the unit instead of the side edges.)

Shoot, I just noticed this rule says ignore SIDE connectors if you're moving forward... so I guess it doesn't work after all. Anyway, we're getting far off topic, I fear.

That rule is also during movement, not end condition.

On 9/29/2017 at 10:51 AM, Click5 said:

Not sure your entirely following my point on tournament scoring, which is most assuredly my fault

Putting upgrades aside, a 3x2 Carrion Lancer unit will give your opponent 22 points after losing one tray (possible 9 damage suffered), a 4x3 unit of Reanimates gives your opponent 14 points after losing 3 tray (12 damage, less susceptible to mortal strikes)

After losing 3 trays, which by the way doesn't impact their danger much at all as they are still at 3 threat, the Carrion Lancers give the opponent 41 points, and that's a possible 27 damage suffered at most. The 4x3 unit will give the opponent 29 points after losing 6 trays, which would be 24 damage suffered. And this isn't taking into account any Regeneration, arguably making the Reanimate unit more survivable in some cases.

So while the starting point cost can be roughly the same, the rate at which your opponent is scoring points for killing your units is tilted drastically towards the Carrion Lancer.

I've played in two tournaments now with a 3x2 Lancer unit and in both I lost a game, because when round 8 ended, even though I had 2 or 3 Lancers left and was in a stronger position, I lost 6-5 on points because of how valuable the Carrion Lancers are for the opponent.

I would agree with your assessment in the value of reanimates over lancers unupgraded, however I would never take the unit without those 2 upgrades, and therefore I would not view them without, damage to points the lancers pack a better punch in an similarly costing unit of reanimates. If I were running lancers with no upgrades I MIGHT run a 2x1 but typically they would only be a 1 tray unit out there to blight a hero and attack them in hopes of MSing them to death...outside of that, they can be a useful interceptor or give Ardus their ability... But as a large block damage dealer I think they outshine reanimates...but that is my opinion based on my gameplay

Where did you guys get the idea that you can't be in contact with a friendly unit after a March?

That's written.... literally nowhere.

Yes, you DO collide with a unit if you're touching it after a march, but Colliding literally does nothing if it's with a friendly (unless you are stopped because you tried to move over more than one tray, or some other game effect).

1 hour ago, Tvayumat said:

Where did you guys get the idea that you can't be in contact with a friendly unit after a March?

That's written.... literally nowhere.

Yes, you DO collide with a unit if you're touching it after a march, but Colliding literally does nothing if it's with a friendly (unless you are stopped because you tried to move over more than one tray, or some other game effect).

The difficulty comes in clearing it so that you end up on the other side of it. Because of the geometry of the pegs, it's impossible for two 1-tray units to clear with just a 2-speed move. It requires n+3, where n is the number of ranks in the active unit.

2 hours ago, Tvayumat said:

Where did you guys get the idea that you can't be in contact with a friendly unit after a March?

That's written.... literally nowhere.

Yes, you DO collide with a unit if you're touching it after a march, but Colliding literally does nothing if it's with a friendly (unless you are stopped because you tried to move over more than one tray, or some other game effect).

The issue is overlapping, not strictly speaking contact. I'd be highly suspicious of people in contact just clearing out of principle though. A tray is longer than 1, the main body of the tray is 1.