I think to some degree all of us have some munchkin or power gamer in us. For most, though, it's so mild that we refer to it as character optimization. We roleplay a bit, we optimize stats when we spend xp and generally respect that we're not the only people playing the game. There are others at the table. It seems like people misue the terms munchkin and power gamer to refer to anyone that does this.

In reality, ZillaPrime gave us some good examples of the worst in each category. It just turns out that it's the same player in his game.

I think if you have a player that goes to such extremes, yes they make the game less fun for everyone else, but it's important to discuss things with them first before booting them to the curb. If they don't fit in with the group, then give them opportunities to change. I'm sure there are other power gamers and munchkins kicked out of other groups to play with them if things don't work out in the end.

My problem is that one of my players (who's definitely a power gamer) likes to play intimidating tough guys because... well he's an intimidating tough guy in real life.

The issue is that he approaches RPGs as players VS. the GM, so he's constantly exchanging secret plans and strategies with the other players so that he can "beat" the GM.

Also, when he's intimidating an NPC, he's actually kind of.. well... intimidating in real life, so he sort of bullies me into submission. Often by raising his voice.

I've done the rational adult thing and actually talked with him about it. Since then he's improved a little, but the problem still creeps up once in a while.

Ugh.

Nihilius said:

I used to have a large selection of players (university gaming club of 100 people, I'm actually going back there to start RPing with some of the post-grads tonight), and yea, that's how I worked.

I now have a small group of players, all good personal friends, and I still do the same. I'll go "I'm running an investigation heavy campaign" and they'll make characters for that. If I then went "I'm going to make a combat heavy game" they'd make characters suited to that.

You are also assuming I would GM a game for a group of people who wanted the entire opposite of what I did. If I was faced with a group like that, I'd let one of them run it instead, so my time wouldn't be wasted running a style of game I didn't enjoy.

Ultimately, in my opinion, the GM and the group should have similar preferences for the best sort of game. Having a group of a huge mish-mash of preferences just seems to me to be the perfect way to have people end up being unhappy no matter what you do.

There seems to be some assumption here that Power Gamers and Min/Maxers can't be good roleplayers to boot ... I'm here to tell you that is not the case.

I have been GMing for 18 years (gads, has it really been that long?) and in that time some of the best role players I've ever met have been power gamers. In my current game 3 of my 5 players are power gamers and/or min/maxers - but they are also all three actors and bring a great deal of high quality rp to the table. The trick is, they do their power gaming IC, or leave it away from the table during story time and focus on it when leveling/doing other ooc actions.

In the L5R game I play our heaviest hitter - powergamer-wize - is also the most diplomatic and politically shrewd player at the table; every bit the Scorpion assassin he is meant to be.

I played in a whole group of powergamers a few years back and some of them were incredible rpers as well - including the GM who, while a huge power-gaming sort, was also an excellent storyteller.

The one does not automatically preclude the other.

I do have one player whom has become more of a power gamer the last couple years, and his game has suffered for it (he was once my best role player, now he's just mediocre) so I won't say one can't harm the other ... but that really depends upon what the player is capable of.

Remember that even munchkins have standards. What's the fun in playing a SoB when you could make an Adept that easily outpaces the Guardsmen? Hell none of my players will even touch Pure Faith even though we've had two Black Priests over the last year and a half. Anything else they will optimize the hell out of. Sometimes we even skip a session to discuss builds for PCs and each of us builds a acolyte cell according to the limits we set in place. Then we do a free for all mission where each cell faces the other to complete an objective.

After reading through this post from begining to end I have come to the conclusion that I am a powergamer....and I am the GM! This might explain why my players constantly look at me in horror and say "Your evil" at my latest plot revelation.

On the plus side I now have a queue of PC's who want to join the group.

I have found the best way to beat powergamers is simply to be realistic as a GM. If your powergaming force weapon wielding psyker hacks his way through a cult one week thats fine, but the cult is likely to do something about it the next week (say do something simple like posion him).

I also make it very clear at the start of the game that the rulebook is a refence guide for the GM. The PC's can look in the book and even observe some of the guidlines I will likely follow. However at any point I will and can arbitarily change anything if it helps the game. 90% I don't have to do this but it helps the PC's to know what is going on.

I once had the good fortune to be in a gaming group run by the legenadry Garrett Lepper and he always said that the best thing a GM can do is make sure there are always consequences for any PC decision.

For example the Techpriest in my group wants a uber powerful melta gun. Thats fine. I have given it to him. Except it overheats and has its own catastrohic malfunction table.

To echo what many have said here - I to do not think min/ maxers are a problem per se. There are merely specialising; which is a perfectly natural instinct, and quite 'team player' when you think about it (as a specialist on their own is vulnerable).

As for power gaming, aside from other issues, it seems to me that it comes from the belief that the scenario is set: that the opponents are set and that if you power up you will overcome. In many games this basic and unbelievably simple tactic works! This really shows up in computer games, but holds true for RPGs too.

This can be neutralised by removing this tactic and GMs have their ways...

Some ground rules as to what is expected can help - merely pointing out that it's a puzzle game not a combat simulator, and that you (the GM) will match the enemies to the power levels of the players; so most straight up fights listed in the scenario will scale to at least be 50-50 (and a real chance of the PC dying). Those enemies that are weaker than 50-50 are likely to run, and 'boss monsters' are usually invincible (to the point they may not even have stats, you fight it: you loose). Defeating a boss is a puzzle and will require a bit of lateral thinking. Catching those that run will require ambushes, and shifting the odds of a 50-50 fight will require tactics. You only earn experience on 50-50 fights and the use of tactics.

So no matter how much the min/max; they usually have a 50% chance of loosing in a fight with NPCs who want to fight, and the boss monster is 'the boss' and will kick their ass.

'opponent scaling' or 'risk scaling'.

Reminds me of the old Warhammer Fantasy RPG (1E) 'risk rolls', which tended to be 50%...

In conclusion, I think most of the time it's hard to blame a power-gamers for doing what they do - it's a personality trait. If handled with care, and they are made aware of the parameters of the game, it can work to your advantage. However a power gamer will test your resolve. You will probably have to kill them at some point, and do it early before their mindset thinks you were full of BS and they act up. The first 'easy' fight the power-gamer wants (i.e. bullying or picking on mooks) the NPCs should run away , the first 50-50 fight they have they should walk away bloody, die, or surrender. If they walk away bloody and get into another fight - kill them.

I'm sure the non power-games will be ahead of the curve, and start suggesting tactics and perhaps a bit of stealth. However, this is 'adaptive', and what works once should not work again (once word is out that there is a 'gang', that ambushes, operating in the area - NPCs will be weary (and they know the terrain)). It is possible that the PC will intimidate many, but criminal gangs can be powerful and may hunt the PCs down. Usually the PCs are operating in a society, and threats will be taken very seriously. Humans are aggressive. Territory will be protected. (Protected by the NPC version of a min/ maxer!)

When thinking about what an NPC would do, just ask yourself: what would you do in their shoes?

Do not blame the player for power-gaming: blame the system and the lack of in game consequences.

Power-gamers are power-gamers because it often works. Simple but effective. If you want a more sophisticated game, I would suggest the system and game world has to be sophisticated too. You can't rely on 'social norms' and 'unspoken understanding' and what is the 'correct attitude to make up for an unsophisticated system. A power-gamers will see the weaknesses and exploit them. It's their nature, and that nature is in all of us. In many ways the whole point of RPGs is to have fun and cheat the odds, to solve the puzzle, power-gamers are merely starting with the rules (simple tactics lots of maths), those who like the setting exploit the setting (complex tactics little maths). Rules hacker - setting hacker.

We are all more similar than different, more often than not...

Philip

PS: As for 'centre of attention' you can't beat being a GM

I would like to see some examples of these so called over powered characters. They might be good in certain combat situations, but I can't imagine them being good at social, investigative and combat situations.

Some of the suggestions sounds allot like it will encourage a player VS GM mentality in the group. Like making sure a suspect power gamer's character dies, no matter what. Most of the combat situations I've found my character in it was pretty realistic, with realistic odds of survival depending on the situatioin, not some sort of pre-established power curve.

It kind of seems like out characters are test subjects for the GM some times. He would throw us some thing unexpected just to see how we would deal with it .

Catachan said:

You know, that very well could be the case. Especially since it is possible that your characters are being observed by that most mysterious of somethings . Whatever this something is could very well be testing you to determine how best to destroy you when the time comes. Or things could be purley coincidental. But, if you feel like you're being tested, then you probably are.

Now there's some food for thought.

-=Brother Praetus=-

Catachan said:

They generally aren't. Which is part of the problem. A power-gamer who twinks out a combat character will often dominate in combat, to the point that other players may feel superflous. The powergamer will get all the kills, while the rest of the group (at best) hold up some of the mooks. For the rest of the game, however, the powergamer just sits around waiting for fights to start. The worst of them try to start fights just so they can excel again. Personally I don't think they do themselves any favours.

The funny thing is that in Dark Heresy there are so many powerful but also realistic weapons around that I think it is hard for a player to really powergame in the traditional sense of the word. For example missile launchers armed with krak missiles are powerful but not wholly unrealistic for general recidivst scum to have. That will give pretty much any character a bad day. Equally a couple of cultists armed with doublehanded Mono-weapons are pretty deadly in combat.

But then I play that righteous Fury applied to all NPC's as well as PC's and also you roll automatically if you get a 10, no need for a WS or BS test.

Catachan said:

In our current campaign, which is drawing to a close rapidly now, I statted up an NPC psyker named Krell Mithras. He's basically based on Walton Simons from Deus Ex, and is essentially the BBEG for this campaign that's been going for about a year IRL now, so he needed to be impressive.

The chief acolyte of a rival Inquisitor and second in command of the Templar Calix in the Calixis Sector, he is a rank 8 santioned psyker with a rank inTemplar Calix somewhere in there. Admittedly his generated characteristics were somewhat optimised, but then again this is an example of powergaming. Mithras is a master orchestrator of his Inquisitor's plans, using his high station and respectable skills in social manipulation, augmented by his psychic powers, to get people to do what he wants when his Inquisitor doesn't wish to appear actively involved.

In combat, Mithras is every bit the equivalent of a dedicated melee assassin. Anything they can do, he can do at least as well, except Mithras lacks about 10pts of Agility compared to a maxed assassin. In fact, he might even be better than an assassin because of his Force Sword (1d10+11 Pen 7 in his hands). Two of our PCs were alone with him on an 'errand'. They each fell in a single round (don't worry, they'll earn back their Fate Point easily, I'm not a harsg GM wen it comes to plot-dictated damage like that).

Outside of combat, Mithras isn't as dominant as a character optimised for the role could be, but he's certainly no slouch. He has a useful variety of lores and reasonable Intelligence, so he's more useful for assisting but certainly on par with anyone else not playing a Loremonkey Adept. He can pick locks, read lips, heal himself (psychically and otherwise), and has a relatively high Fellowship (mid 40s) along with all the skills and talents for it, so he can do all the required wheeling and dealing for his high station in the sector from any angle the conversation goes (charming, bluffing, outright interrogations, the works). Amongst other things.

This is before we get to his psychic powers. Mithras is a talented biomancer (psy rating 5, focus (biomancy), and will easily use his powers like Constrict for a classic Sith force-choke, or Blood Boil for those few times he needs to fatigue something into submission. He is also trained in Telepathy, and can manipulate the minds of others to infiltrate past them with See Me Not or Forget Me, or outright bludgeon them psychically into submission with Compel, Fearful/Inspiring Aura, Spasm, etc.

The scary part? We had a guy basically build this character once (he was basically the inspiration I used) but with Pyromancy instead. Lighting up entire buildings at a time really drove home the "Inquisition! F*CK YEAH!" factor.

Tl'dr: Mithras isn't uber-pwnage at everything outside of combat too. But he's most certainly competent, moreso than any other Ramblomatic Gunbunny or Tranquility-Lane-Slasher. And I know I could make him twice as good if I really tried. I'd post a direct NPC entry, but I'm not sure how FFG goes with what is essentially posting rules of their games.

MILLANDSON said:

I totally agree that the GM and the group should have similar preferences. However, for me (and from what I read, a lot of others), that is simply not possible due to the people they play with and their preferences. Sounds like you're lucky to have a group of very flexible players. Not everyone is so lucky, and then you need to make compromises, even as the GM.

Brother Praetus said:

You mean like we were tested in our last game Brother Praetus? We finish the fight with the BBEG, move onto a train loaded down with more BBEGs and right before we are about to engage, we find out we're at a good stopping point.

Our defenses were tested. We have been weighed and measured and WILL have quite the challenge at our next gaming session.

Sometimes encounters are out there just to test the players limits/capabilities.

I didn't even realize it was happening. Our GM is good and sneaky like that. Here's looking to a challenging combat to come.

LeBlanc13 said:

We are so boned if the Sororitas and that Inquisitor catch up to us, LeBlanc. So very, very boned. I can't wait until the next game. It's gonna be like a train heist with more violence and blood and violence. Oh, if only you still had some fuel for that cleansing fire of yours. This will be interesting, to say the least.

-=Brother Praetus=-

"Son, we play in worlds that have monsters, and those monsters have to be faced by characters two notches above average. Whose gonna do it? You? Armand Soulsweep, Raven Tragicsholme? I have a greater responsibility than you could possibly fathom. You weep for the death of roleplaying, and you curse the powergamers. You have that luxury. You have the luxury of not knowing what I know. That powergaming, while tragic, probably saves lives. And my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, saves lives, both PC and NPC. You don't want the truth because deep down in places you don't talk about at "character sessions", you want me facing those monsters, you need me facing those monsters. We use words like build, focus and maximisation. We use these words as the backbone of a life spent defending something. You use them as a punchline. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very protection that I provide, and then questions the manner in which I provide it. I would rather you just said thank you, and went on your way, Otherwise, I suggest you minmax a character build, and stand a post. Either way, I don't give a **** what you think you are entitled to."

Statement of clarification:This is a mixture of the humourous and the serious.

Evilgm said:

Sorry that's meant to be on this account, my mate left himself logged in on my computer.

HGEoM that was awesome EvilGM. So beautifully adapted to the cause. I so pictured Nicholson dressed up as a IG regimental commander with Cruise dressed in Commissariat dress uniform at tribunal... Hmm, Commissar Cruise is a frightening image.

-=Brother Praetus=-

Brother Praetus said:

I only do two things really well, burn heretics and chew bubblegum. Right now, I'm all out of flamer fuel.

We are up the proverbial creek... unless someone has an extra canister lying around they could lend me. Ah, what I wouldn't give for some promethium right now.