35 minutes ago, Vergilius said:

That's fine and all if there list has high dice shots that produce accuracies. If they don't, it did precisely nothing for you.

in my experience, the ECM is either worth some really large number of damage points saved because they could make a several rounds of really big shots, or it is worth nothing because their list just didn't produce accuracies. There is an element of perception bias here because really big results tend to stick out in our minds whereas the standard results are less noteworthy. There's a reason a number of high level players are fine running without ECM in major events.

It doesn't even need to be the 'standard' high dice shot ships that everyone's afraid of (Liberties, Home Ones, ISDs). A TRC90 front arc shot at medium range with CF is throwing out 1B 3R and it's not difficult at all to end up with 4-5 damage and an accuracy. Being able to brace that saves you either 2 or the 'full' 3 needed to break even right there. These kind of shots happen all the time . Over the course of four combat turns, a ship with a brace will save itself three damage+ unless literally all incoming damage is from bombers.

This is of course not to say 'always run ECM in all situations', but I feel confident that if we had the ability to sit down and record the data from 100 games that include brace-capable ships, we would find that Dras's assumptions of general ECM superiority to be correct.

8 hours ago, Rearadmiralsdoitinspace said:

MC80 tank - with Raymus, RBDs and advanced projectors.

This may be one of the issues, no one uses any large ships for the Rebles in my area. Only Medium and Smalls.

The one thing I truly loathe about the Defensive Retrofit slot is the fact that ECM is so unbalanced in it, in comparison, for its points.

It should be the most expensive. Relatively speaking, since it prevents the most on average .

But just like the fact that there are skew lists that are all damage dealt in small chunks (all bombers) to nullify that, there are also skew lists that deal nothing but large chunks (larger ship lists) that nullify your other choices.

In effect, because of the way its skewed, ECM is almost always the better choice for overall . Unless your meta says "bombers are bae".

I have noted the decline in ECM as of late as well, @Vergilius - and its because of that meta shift. We're seeing Avenger make a massive comeback, where you can't use your brace at all. (at the same time, that also nullifies AP, and because of One-Shot capability on lighter frames, also shuts down RS and RBD - effectively Everything! .). We're also seeing Sloane, where again, thigns are being dealt in small chunks - promoting the Non-ECM uses.

We've barely recovered from Triple-Tap Demolisher, where the only effective choices were AP or RBD. RS just wasn't enough.

So I am emininently Glad that the competition is returning to the Slot. Because for the longest time, ECM was everything and everything was ECM... You never heard of anything else and it was poor for the game.

The same sort of thing exists for the Weapons Team slot, for the most part... For the longest time, there was nothing but Gunnery Teams there. But we're seeing more competition for that slot. ISDs without Gunnery Teams? Heresy! But it happens.

In effect, you can be comfortable with something else other than ECM if you're a good player (and @Vergilius and his people certainly qualify as that, triply so in comparison to me), but they are also probably looking at scenarios where they're not intending to need more than 3 points of damage mitigation in a game anyway.

Very much how the Rieekan Nerf wasn't a nerf if you were a "Good" Rieekan player anyway, because you never intended to lose more than 1 ship a turn anyway. I have it on good authority that's what 2 different National Champs have mentioned in passing, anyway.

The ECM is much the same. If you do not know your meta, and you cannot guarantee you will face more bombers than anything else , then ECM is the Most Effective Default you can take to fill that slot.

and I hate that.

I was going to fly this at last year's Nationals (or worlds? One of them) and it seems that the idea had caught on. In practice, you never can get RS to trigger enough to really be worth it when in this list Shields to Maximum combined with Raymus Antilles gives the same effect to your whole fleet for practically nothing while the Pelta locked into engineering will keep itself alive with essentially 6 engineering a turn, and 8 on the last turn. After awhile, I stopped running RBD and RS on it and left the second slot empty entirely for a honestly crazy initiative bid but I have proven to need it in this build so it has paid off. Very good record, kind of point and click, lots of fun formation flying. Since conception as my notes say wave five, this is Iteration like 7 I think. Playing with an eighth version now. Bottom line, I agree with the others who say RS really is just not worth it on any ship. My reason is that StM exists. Maybe in the future that could change?

Neo Invincible (387/400)
=======================
MC80 Assault Cruiser (114 + 72)
+ Admiral Ackbar (38)
+ Major Derlin (7)
+ Electronic Countermeasures (7)
+ Leading Shots (4)
+ Medical Team (1)
+ Enhanced Armament (10)
+ Defiance (5)
Modified Pelta-class Assault Ship (56 + 17)
+ Raymus Antilles (7)
+ Shields to Maximum! (6)
+ Medical Team (1)
+ Flechette Torpedoes (3)
Modified Pelta-class Assault Ship (56 + 8)
+ Lando Calrissian (4)
+ Medical Team (1)
+ Flechette Torpedoes (3)
GR-75 Medium Transports (18 + 4)
+ Repair Crews (4)
GR-75 Medium Transports (18 + 4)
+ Repair Crews (4)
GR-75 Medium Transports (18 + 2)
+ Comms Net (2)
Advanced Gunnery
Fire Lanes
Solar Corona

Right now on the table:

1 ISD-2... with ECM

1 Assault Cruiser... with RBD and ECM

No Redundant in sight!

GK out

4 minutes ago, Green Knight said:

Right now on the table:

1 ISD-2... with ECM

1 Assault Cruiser... with RBD and ECM

No Redundant in sight!

GK out

And why?

Bexause you expect MC80 assaults and ISDs.

correlation to my point ?

I have Sloane - take ECM every time for all I care

I have never used them. I have not used them once. Never have I ever used them.

2 hours ago, Green Knight said:

I have Sloane - take ECM every time for all I care

Which is a reason to take cluster bombs .

Scary, eh?

I've been trying it with a projection experts arquittens build. So far it's been underwhelming, but I may just need practice with the list.

On 9/28/2017 at 9:54 AM, JauntyChapeau said:

It doesn't even need to be the 'standard' high dice shot ships that everyone's afraid of (Liberties, Home Ones, ISDs). A TRC90 front arc shot at medium range with CF is throwing out 1B 3R and it's not difficult at all to end up with 4-5 damage and an accuracy. Being able to brace that saves you either 2 or the 'full' 3 needed to break even right there. These kind of shots happen all the time . Over the course of four combat turns, a ship with a brace will save itself three damage+ unless literally all incoming damage is from bombers.

This is of course not to say 'always run ECM in all situations', but I feel confident that if we had the ability to sit down and record the data from 100 games that include brace-capable ships, we would find that Dras's assumptions of general ECM superiority to be correct.

On Needa ISDs and Assault Frigates, it can also allow you to keep your evade at long range, which can prevent 1-2 damage in the initial engagement. And even having a redirect when you otherwise wouldn't can be helpful. So, yeah, ECM can easily outperform any other defensive retrofit.