9 hours ago, Absol197 said:

Okay Marcy, come on.

I TRY not to like every single thing you post, I really do! It makes me seem weird(er) and stalker-ish, and I don't want to do it!

But if you keep making awesome points sprinkled with hilarious banter, I've just got nothing to work with! Stop being so awesome! For all our sakes !

I struggle with the same thing. I have simply realized that Marcy has used Influence in all of her posts so that we are forced (he-he) to like them and I haven't been able to break away...not that I've tried...

9 hours ago, Absol197 said:

That's actually a trickier calculation than our first appears: with the stats the Universe gave to yaks, they interact really weirdly with the vehicle rules, meaning the FFAF (Fantasy Flight Air Force) is going to have a hard time talking them out long enough to get the books back.

And that's not even getting INTO how ridiculous the numbers are on a fully-modded Mongolian longbow with the Yakhorn Composite Fiber and Multi-Stringed attachments added on...

Needless to say, it might be a while...

That's why FFG will hire this guy...

He'll be able to snag all of the bags with the books right off the backs of the yaks, and then the Air Retrieval people will have a moderately easier time collecting them.

Edit: Apparently this picture fits the description of 'mongolian with a bow riding a yak.'

Isn't that the one dude who claims to be a master archer but uses modified arrows and a very low draw weight bow to do 3-5ft trick shots?

12 hours ago, KungFuFerret said:

Good for them then. I haven't watched it yet so I can't comment, but if they are taking time to give the aliens for variation, then I approve. I've never been a fan of the idea that aliens are so different from us, that they all toe the same line without any deviation. And yet they are so much like us in every other way.

Meh to the new Star Trek. I refuse to pay for another streaming service. Right now The Orville is scratching that Boldly Go itch for me.

12 hours ago, Maelora said:

In fact, one of our PCs bears

It's been a very, very long day when I'm trying to read this sentence and I cant get my head around "Wait - she plays with Bears? What the F?"

And knowing what I know of her table, I wouldnt rule it out.

Feh! I'm going to bed. . . .

3 hours ago, Vondy said:

Personally, if you want to explore an alien species and culture in depth , the game should focus on that species and the majority (if not all) of the player characters should be from that species-culture-planet. Or, the other players should sign up for frequently being out of the spotlight. If you only have one of said alien, or everyone is playing different oddball aliens everyone wants to explore in detail, then you have to shift narrative focus away from the main story, or divide up your time too much, to play to the snowflake character. This is especially true if you have a "normal sized" or larger group (say 4+ players). Of course, the players of the non-exotic characters may be willing to serve as supporting cast for an extended arc about the alien leading man or lady, or you might be able to work non-exotics into a story about the exotics in an interesting way (works best with 2-3, IMO), but that's still a story focused on one species. Basically, I'm suggesting that while exploring an alien culture-species-planet is a perfectly valid thing to do in a game (and could be fun and rewarding) it works best if that's what the game is about. Otherwise, its tends to be make-work for the GM.

Now I have this vision of Luke being abducted by jawas, living in the desert where he discovers their culture in depth, and then those said jawas attacking the Jabba the Hutt palace mounted on mechanical sandworms in a display of Tatooine awesomeness.

Yeah lateral thinking.

And yeah, I still need my coffee....

@Vestij Man, this is GOOD

Lots of like

1 hour ago, MonCal said:

Now I have this vision of Luke being abducted by jawas, living in the desert where he discovers their culture in depth, and then those said jawas attacking the Jabba the Hutt palace mounted on mechanical sandworms in a display of Tatooine awesomeness.

Yeah lateral thinking.

And yeah, I still need my coffee....

Worm signs, my lord! Like you've never seen them!

11 hours ago, Desslok said:

It's been a very, very long day when I'm trying to read this sentence and I cant get my head around "Wait - she plays with Bears? What the F?"

And knowing what I know of her table, I wouldnt rule it out.

Players, or characters as bears? One or two of the players might pass as bears, being large, hirsute, hungry and generally easy-going unless prodded.

Characters?

Well, this was a thing last month:

He said, 'ewoks?' and I said 'no' (actually I said '**** NO!!!')

Then he said, 'but I saw a picture of one that was very MarcyVerse'. And I said, 'if you've been googling Ewok Rule 34, I must insist that you never speak to me again'.

And he said, 'no look,', and...

Checked this thread today after not having checked it since Wednesday and I have no idea how it got here.

So I dug this out of a old Star Wars mod forum I used to frequent, it seems appropriate for this tread.

11 hours ago, MonCal said:

Now I have this vision of Luke being abducted by jawas, living in the desert where he discovers their culture in depth, and then those said jawas attacking the Jabba the Hutt palace mounted on mechanical sandworms in a display of Tatooine awesomeness.

Yeah lateral thinking.

And yeah, I still need my coffee....

This made me laugh, thank you MonCal

27 minutes ago, Imperial Stormtrooper said:

Checked this thread today after not having checked it since Wednesday and I have no idea how it got here.

So I dug this out of a old Star Wars mod forum I used to frequent, it seems appropriate for this tread.

Think of this thread more as a dogfight than a trench run

The elasticity of this thread is amazing, but I don't throw stones, it's nice to see people having community. I have some ideas that I know are unpopular, but I share them here because I think this is the place where I will get the most honest feedback and not just contrarian blasting. Thanks for being patient to all who hated this idea but posted an intelligent response.

I think that I am learning that there is really an underlying dynamic, the player. I think that the Alien thing offends me because what it does is to attempt to add a bunch of garnish to what is essentially very often a bland dish. Some nights you want comfort food, and you don't mind the lack of gourmet detail in the meal, but other times you can really be in the mood for a meal that knocks you out, and if instead you get hot pockets because that is what the culture is, you may not be happy.

I feel like RPG culture is in the business of not trying to be too hard or scare people away takes that median approach to presenting what the hobby can be. Not too stupid, but not too serious. But because these are subjective things the culture tries to try and find the mean. If you are not someone who wants the low to middle end of the scale the natural result is that you must be more discerning than the other people, especially those for whom the convention of Beer & Pretzels in enshrined as the actual culture, period, end of story. This of course makes you look like an ***. Surely your motivations for not liking my all Ewok group are racist, or anti-social, or just plain sadistic as you must enjoy tromping on the fun of others.

I hope the error in that sort of thinking is fairly obvious.

15 hours ago, ThreeAM said:

Also that was me, and I never responded with my answer to the OP (lost in the shuffle).

But my answer is: While we aren't that far into our campaign, I have a an arc planned for each character. Each explores parts of their history(obligation) with highlights on specifics to their species.

Pretty sure my players aren't on this forum so....for example the Gand is working to earn their family name, and I have an Arc planned where they return to the planet gand for their trial of Janwuine-jika . The Chiss is embarking on her own Arc of being raised on Alderaan and largely being a pacifist, but is finding conflict with this in dealing with A) having all her family and friends destroyed by the empire and B) the struggle of needing violence to survive in the underworld and C) reconciling her discovery of her grandfather's involvement with the criminal underworld in order to support the family.

These are simply the characters they have created, the fact that they are Alien is secondary.

I get the OP's point. The movies are about Humans being the Hero's and the Aliens are sidekicks. That's true. But The Star Wars Universe is a big place and ultimately its just a setting, and I personally like to enjoy the diversity and depths of a unique world.

I think this is really all you can ask for, and I don't think your situation is what I would describe as flat alien characters. I would say that these characters are interesting and deep, but if you put a human in those situations it becomes more relatable if maybe less exotic. So maybe that's a good way to look at it, do you want closer immersion or do you want exotic? Both are valid I would imagine.

53 minutes ago, Maelora said:

Players, or characters as bears? One or two of the players might pass as bears, being large, hirsute, hungry and generally easy-going unless prodded.

Characters?

Well, this was a thing last month:

He said, 'ewoks?' and I said 'no' (actually I said '**** NO!!!')

Then he said, 'but I saw a picture of one that was very MarcyVerse'. And I said, 'if you've been googling Ewok Rule 34, I must insist that you never speak to me again'.

And he said, 'no look,', and...

... and I said '......'

And he said, 'How about it?'

And I said 'Um, we don't have official stats for them yet.' And he said, 'okay'.

But I kept thinking about it. And I have no special love for 'furries; or whatever they're called (apart from Space Weasels ) - after all, a hot guy or gal with a warthog head still has a warthog head, right?

And I kept thinking, 'I dunno, that's... actually kind of...! ...insouciant pose, sassy expression...'

And I found myself hoping that FFG never actually release official stats for the teddybears, for fear that MarcyVerse ewoks may well become a thing...!

I dunno. I think I would still need him to prove he wasnt googling Ewok rule 34.

21 minutes ago, korjik said:

Think of this thread more as a dogfight than a trench run

Really, more like . . . .

On 9/27/2017 at 9:34 PM, Norr-Saba said:

so i have been waiting for almost a week and still not been approved to post, so i doubt anyone will actually end up seeing this but i've read through the entire post and have been wanting to say something since page 4.

I have to be honest that i think that the O/P's assumption about the relatability of human characters and unrelatability of inhuman ones is a bit of a stretch for me. I don't mean to overgeneralize the O/P's ability as a Dm and i don't need to restate what others have already said about the quality of the players or of the DM, but there are a few points that i will touch on.

I am a Person of color who plays tabletop, and for me playing a human character is not inherently relatable due to the fact that yes the majority of characters in starwars have been human, but they have also been white humans, with lando being the only person of color in the original trilogy and very few coming after him. This is something that is a recurring theme in a lot of the gaming community, with the default not being human, but being white humans, whether it is sci-fi or fantasy this has been the case for decades, with one of the greatest offenders imo being star-trek where even its aliens are white humans with a bit of makeup, whole species of not humans in funny hats, but white humans in funny hats if we are to expand the trope a little bit. This fact is further illustrated by the fact that my current avatar, the ridiculous caricature that it is, is one of the closest i can find to someone like me with all of the human options from the edge of the empire avatars being white.
so for me, for the longest time, and i'm sure for people who find themselves in my situation, playing a non-human is easier to relate to in many cases than playing a human, and with edge i usually play a mandalorian due to their cultural diversity, but most often a non-human mandalorian.

to build on this, someone said that humans have no description in the game except for corellians and mandalorians (although mandalorians are not a totally human group) which means that with no limitations, a human character can be from anywhere and their actions would seem totally normal and appropriate for them because hey they're human and a monolith in star wars.

I have seen the O/P talk about how this is not as easy for aliens or droids because players either do not connect with them or they play them as reskinned humans, and therefore not as the O/P wants them to. To this i have to say two things

1. that as multifaceted and diverse as humans can be, aliens should be allowed to be just as much so. this means that even though aliens and humans from their respective human cultures are going to have their own cultural norms and mores, and sometimes more than one group of these considering aliens are no more confined to a single planet than humans are, not all peoples from a culture are going to act within those norms. did this alien grow up around primarily humans, are they assimilated as a result or do they act even more like their culture as a result, do they have a globalized/galaxized perspectives, what are their personal quirks and manerisms, so on and so forth.
   you should never allow your characters to be stereotypes whether they are alien or human, and as a game master it is up to you to encourage your players to avoid this, which honestly might require worldbuilding from both you and your players, which should be done for even your human characters. there should never be just a generic alien any more than a generic human, what planet do they come from, what culture do they identify with, what was their homelife, how do they relate to their culture, how do they relate to their fellow players through all of this, and if there is not enough of their culture known then how would you and the player like to fill in the gaps, these are all questions that should be posed to players as they are developing their characters in order to ensure that they can form a connection with them and with their team mates.
   
2. second point is that we are playing in a highly globalized galaxy, and with few exceptions most alien and human species have come in contact with one another, and there is going to be some cultural drift across species, from how they perceive their galaxy to what they find attractive, and most likely having the most dominant species (humans) and the most exotified humanoids (twiliks, ect..) being found attractive by everyone. What this means for gameplay is that not only are you going to have aliens that act very similar to humans, but you are going to have humans that act very similar to aliens, lets remember that this is a distant galaxy in a different time, and there is no reason to assume it is the norm for humans to think the same way as we do any more than it is reasonable for vikings to think the same way that we do now.

final point i want to make in direct response to the O/P is to ask if you have considered how your own biases have affected your players, not to say that you do it consciously and its understandable after reading through what you yourself have encountered with past players, but even if it is unsaid players can sense when you just don't like their character, which can prevent them from feeling comfortable enough to properly engage in the system, i also saw you ask someone if one of the GM's players with an alien character had their own arc, and this is a second thing that i wanted to point out about how your own bias might be affecting the situation, because it may be unconsciously preventing you from creating these opportunities for your players. This is something that going through the questioning process with all of your players about their characters can also help with, and i really hope this helps.

Thanks for the post. I think that you bring up a good point and since I am a white male it would stand to reason that the Star Wars Movie characters are as easy as it gets for me as far as being able to relate. If you feel somewhat disconnected with them then that only makes my point more salient. In this thread I am saying that what we are most like is what we will be able to most easily relate to, and in my decades of GMing I haven't seen enough of the opposite to be able to believe that I'm not correct here. So why would playing a human who looks like you in skin color not be more comfortable than say a Gand or a Trandoshan? Being a white male American, I am someone who does not really identify with a culture so much as I identify with where I live, I was raised that way and even though I have had a lot of cultural training and work in a diverse environment (about 1% white males), I see myself as an individual apart from groups. I would ask if your experience and way of relating to the world around you is different. Do you see yourself as black/brown/other equally beautiful color first, and then order the rest of that as a latter priority in the way that you approach issues and how you feel about them? If that is the case then it would explain why you don't identify with humans in Star Wars because despite their appearance, they are not a part of your culture. As I do not identify with a culture it's easier for me to just say they are human and therefore like me. That is obviously written from my viewpoint, but I am not pretending to speak for anyone else, just to be clear, and I understand that everyone has different views about such things.

1. Stereotypes are what you see almost always when they play an alien. Typically you get the stereotype, or you get the re-skinned human.

2. While I love the idea of the multicultural Star Wars Galaxy, I also feel that as a device it is there primarily to add a feel to the scenes. In the original movie the crew (which is a bunch of white guys in the 70's) said that they felt that the aliens in the cantina scene added that feeling of being in a strange place, kind of like a middle eastern port city with a great variety of types of travelers. I don't restrict people from exploring those exotic things so much as I want them to give me the basic elements first before we tack on the garnish.

My biases are not going away, but neither are yours. I'm afraid I am not that good at spontaneous multi-tasking that I can deliver on the fly content for the game while also filtering for biases. If I feel like Wookiees are going to take something a certain way when the players do it then to be honest that is probably the way that scene will play out. I would love to say that I have two editors in my head working feverishly to make sure what I say isn't going to suck, but that's not the way it's ever been for me. I can do that kind of thing in interpersonal interactions at work, but even then it requires near-complete focus as well as the ability to know where I am going.

I don't supply an arc for anyone outside of what happens in the games as the natural outcome, but I asked that question because I wanted to know if the characters being referred to were flat characters or if they demonstrated some dynamic qualities other than mechanical advancement. I did find your post very interesting and thought provoking, as I had not considered cultural viewpoints from participants, and that was an oversight on my part. Each person brings their own experiences to the table, but over tens of years you sometimes get tired of the same things and want to push for new horizons.

15 hours ago, ThreeAM said:

I have a an arc planned for each character. Each explores parts of their history(obligation) with highlights on specifics to their species.

If you are going to have many different species and explore each, then planning it this way from the outset is the way to go!

Essentially, you have to decide what the campaign's structure will be before you being.

In an episodic game, or a game of serial arcs, what you are describing can work very well.

Its when you have an ongoing meta-plot or a campaign about heroes achieving a long-term "epic goal" that it becomes problematic.

Ergo, is your story a one-off "anthology film" or a part of the "trilogy of trilogies"?

28 minutes ago, Archlyte said:

I think this is really all you can ask for, and I don't think your situation is what I would describe as flat alien characters. I would say that these characters are interesting and deep, but if you put a human in those situations it becomes more relatable if maybe less exotic. So maybe that's a good way to look at it, do you want closer immersion or do you want exotic? Both are valid I would imagine.

I think that is the main disagreement in this whole thread. I Think someone who plays a flat alien character is probably going to play a flat human character. Since we are way past real immersion due to the fantasy aspects of the game, I dont have a problem with aliens, and I dont think they harm the game at all.

How someone plays a character is a bit different. My experience is that someone who plays a flat character plays a flat character no matter what the word is on the character sheet, and someone who plays a nuanced character plays a nuanced character no matter what is on the sheet.

Even then, I imagine that there are limits. Maelora brought on up a few posts ago. She obviously has problems with Ewoks in her game, and I have to say I would too. There are a few races where if a player insisted they be allowed to play that race, I would sooner end the game right there than let them.

So the moral of this story may be that your mileage may vary. How much alien you want in your game is a personal choice.

14 hours ago, Vestij Jai Galaar said:

That's why FFG will hire this guy...

In Archery, the term for this picture is "impending hospital visit."

5 minutes ago, korjik said:

I think that is the main disagreement in this whole thread. I Think someone who plays a flat alien character is probably going to play a flat human character. Since we are way past real immersion due to the fantasy aspects of the game, I dont have a problem with aliens, and I dont think they harm the game at all.

How someone plays a character is a bit different. My experience is that someone who plays a flat character plays a flat character no matter what the word is on the character sheet, and someone who plays a nuanced character plays a nuanced character no matter what is on the sheet.

Even then, I imagine that there are limits. Maelora brought on up a few posts ago. She obviously has problems with Ewoks in her game, and I have to say I would too. There are a few races where if a player insisted they be allowed to play that race, I would sooner end the game right there than let them.

So the moral of this story may be that your mileage may vary. How much alien you want in your game is a personal choice.

Ok so then I will say this, if I'm gonna get a flat alien or a flat human I will take the human. That way it's easier for me to engage them or be able to see the contrast between being a warm body and doing something. I refute this idea that because I said you might have interesting aliens in your game that this means that I have capitulated on my main point that adding more isn't always better, sometimes it's just more.

On 9/28/2017 at 8:54 AM, KungFuFerret said:

I like aliens in certain contexts.

I do, too!

We have two games going on:

I'm running an epic ongoing AU story about a trio of Jedi survivors 8-years after O66. That one is focused on big goals: aid the nascent rebellion, take down the sith, and reconstitute a wiser Jedi Order more in tune with the Living Force. That game has no time for alien tangents, navel gazing, or ruminating on the exotic. Its shared big goals and heroic action ala the trilogies.

An episodic two-player game I get to play in (along with my lady) starring a bounty hunter duo who are willing to cross the line and work as mercenaries or assassins. A Twi'lek female built as a charmer-gunslinger; and a human male built as a gambler-gunslinger. They are "romantically complicated." That game has time to focus on human-twileki interactions and expectations, and digress into Twi'lek issues more.

Most of the games I run, or am in, however are of the former variety - big shared goals and heroic action. Those nest not digress.

My experience with my long time gaming pals is that they tend to fall into certain roles at the table if they are not actively trying to play a certain character type. I do as well. We have the party leader, the 2 guys that only want to break stuff, the one that loves to hit on anything (tried to hit on a female dragon once) etc. I tend to be on the "I want to try this cool new system, so let's do something tending to the extreme to test it up" myself. We tend to be gamists.

Now, all of us can go and try to avoid those roles AT TH TABLE, but the usual party acts in those roles, regardless of how the characters are supposedly built. Lazy plaers? Maybe, but it is not unusual for this to happen. it does not matter if the guys that want to shot things up are playing wookies, dathomir witches, toydarians or ewoks: they are likely to be a force of destruction. You might not advance how a toydarian will best Boba Fett, but they might find a resourceful way to do so. Remember that I said they used a mountain to sink a fleet in Ars Magica? it was those 2.

Ranting now. I will shut up

5 minutes ago, Archlyte said:

Ok so then I will say this, if I'm gonna get a flat alien or a flat human I will take the human. That way it's easier for me to engage them or be able to see the contrast between being a warm body and doing something. I refute this idea that because I said you might have interesting aliens in your game that this means that I have capitulated on my main point that adding more isn't always better, sometimes it's just more.

?

I said different people look at aliens differently.

I said people who play flat characters play flat characters.

I said people who dont play flat characters dont play flat characters.

I said that different people have different limits on what aliens they will allow.

That is all I said. I specifically didnt say you capitulated, or anything like it, just that your view is different than others.

18 minutes ago, themensch said:

In Archery, the term for this picture is "impending hospital visit."

If you look that dude up he does amazing things with that toy bow. It's not a real bow, he'd need to be Steve Rogers to pull an actual recurve back like he does, but he does do some crazy stuff. He does however need some friends to tell him to quit with his running and jumping stuff because he reminds me more of this....

Monty Python can't be beat!

He runs and jumps while shooting that many arrows??

Sheesh! I just googled 'Mongolian riding a yak shooting a bow.'