18 hours ago, Maelora said:

Don't say you weren't warned; here is the forum equivalent of the Pain Series (and you definitely don't want to ask what that is... one of my gaming guys told me and it killed any interest I had in asking further...)

I give you the legend that is was ErikB: https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/93455-why-do-you-think-the-alliance-is-cooler-than-the-empire/?page=3

(to be fair, both Desslok and I were on very fine form )

I dimly recall the 'Art of Bullying' thread was also interesting as an ErikB retrospective. (Gryphynx... what a strange fellow he was...)

Snrk...hah! Wow. Okay, I think this is the strongest argument yet that you and Desslok should not be allowed in the same thread together. That's it, it's official! I'm putting an ankle monitor on you, and one of those flipper-tags on the penguin! If the two get within two threads of each other, they go off, letting the rest of us know to run for the hills!

...or at least to the microwave for some popcorn...

* brandished an unreasonably pointy tagging device at Desslok *

10 hours ago, Vondy said:

I strongly prefer human and near-human player characters.

The farther from human an alien becomes the less relatable, and IMO playable, they are.

Aslo, the weirder "special snowflake" PCs are the harder they are to run games for.

They make great "supporting cast" and "set pieces" that are key to the SW universe, but...

I don't like them as headlining protagonists.

I like aliens in certain contexts. In fact, 2 SW PC's I've played recently were alien, and their particular culture played directly into their concept. It was actually quite fun to be able to incorporate an aspect of their species into the concept.

But I do agree, I tend to prefer playing humans, just because I really don't want to have to do a lot of homework on some alien species to play them right. And on top of that, most of the time, there is very little actually written about their culture, to make them unique. And what is there, frequently is just that one single trait that makes them alien.

Scifi in general, I think, suffers greatly from homogeneous aliens, and this is similar to the Single Biom Planet problem that Star Wars has too. Bottom line is, the creator only has so much time to flesh out a literal galaxy-spanning society, and still actually focus on the protagonists and their storyline. So you get an all water planet, that has these aliens, and the only thing we are told of them is "they like doing cloning." Or any other scifi story to be honest. This is hardly exclusive to SW. If they have a religion, it's the only religion described, implying the entire species shares this one religion. If they have a unique political/social structure, every member follows this. For example, the Ferengi from Trek, all being money based, despite multiple planets worth of people, who could divert from the cultural norm very easily. But no, all Vulcan's are logical fuddy duddies (except when the 7 year itch hits them). All Cardassians are duplicitous and backstabbing, etc etc.

And while I get it, from a simple production standpoint, (if the author fleshed them out fully, they would be their own entire story for each one, and they just don't have time), it makes for some very boring inspirations for characters.

I think that's more a reason you have the "alien special snowflake" syndrome so often, because somebody thinks up a concept that is different from the only defining trait we are given about the alien species , and so it makes them a "deviant" or whatever.

But this isn't an issue with humans, because it's just assumed they will be as culturally diverse as we are on Earth now. They don't assume everyone is the same political views, the same religion, etc, because that's how variant humans are. But the aliens? They usually don't get enough screen time to actually show variations, at least not in movies. TV shows tend to have more flexibility in this, as they can give members of the alien species an arc that changes over time, making it feel more believable. Like Rom's son from Deep Space 9 (I forget his name, but the kid that decides to join Starfleet, the first Ferengi to do so). Or the aliens on Babylon 5 (my personal favorite), who are shown to have some very distinct, and diverse lines in their cultures, that normally would never even be hinted at elsewhere.

10 hours ago, Desslok said:

Oh, so YOU are the reason I had a whole buncha likes from a 4 year old thread. I was like "Why am I getting likes from something back in 2013?!?

Oh yeah, yeah, blame Marcy, sure...

(haha, Mister Angry Penguin, if only you knew that I'm secretly the reason for everything that happens to you on this forum!)

4 minutes ago, Maelora said:

Oh yeah, yeah, blame Marcy, sure...

(haha, Mister Angry Penguin, if only you knew that I'm secretly the reason for everything that happens to you on this forum!)

...yes, SHE'S the reason you will be receiving a shipment of Luchadorian, short person, strippers to your house....not me. *coughs* Yep, AAALLL her doing, everything.....yep. *walks away whistling*

44 minutes ago, Maelora said:

Oh yeah, yeah, blame Marcy, sure...

(haha, Mister Angry Penguin, if only you knew that I'm secretly the reason for everything that happens to you on this forum!)

I've noticed my snarky setting increases when you're around.............I should go review the infinite backpack thread for some corroborating evidence............

59 minutes ago, KungFuFerret said:

TV shows tend to have more flexibility in this, as they can give members of the alien species an arc that changes over time, making it feel more believable. Like Rom's son from Deep Space 9 (I forget his name, but the kid that decides to join Starfleet, the first Ferengi to do so). Or the aliens on Babylon 5 (my personal favorite), who are shown to have some very distinct, and diverse lines in their cultures, that normally would never even be hinted at elsewhere.

I think the new Star Trek show will be doing something like that.

I think it's worth noting that the GM should be providing opportunities for the alien PCs to play up their racial traits, if the GM wants them to become relevant to characterisation in an interesting way. Of course character aspects are going to feel cheap and shoehorned in if the GM isn't giving them room to be expressed organically. If the PCs are having to fight tooth and nail to get any mention of their unique traits into the roleplay, it's never going to come across well. Give them realistic NPC reactions, give them interactions with their culture, give them opportunities to show off their unique species talents in ways that don't feel arbitrary.

12 minutes ago, 2P51 said:

I've noticed my snarky setting increases when you're around.............I should go review the infinite backpack thread for some corroborating evidence............

Infinite Backpacks are canon in the MarcyVerse!

1 minute ago, Maelora said:

Infinite Backpacks are canon in the MarcyVerse!

........... uh huh..........thought so.......

18 minutes ago, Stan Fresh said:

I think the new Star Trek show will be doing something like that.

Good for them then. I haven't watched it yet so I can't comment, but if they are taking time to give the aliens for variation, then I approve. I've never been a fan of the idea that aliens are so different from us, that they all toe the same line without any deviation. And yet they are so much like us in every other way.

20 minutes ago, Tom Cruise said:

I think it's worth noting that the GM should be providing opportunities for the alien PCs to play up their racial traits, if the GM wants them to become relevant to characterisation in an interesting way. Of course character aspects are going to feel cheap and shoehorned in if the GM isn't giving them room to be expressed organically. If the PCs are having to fight tooth and nail to get any mention of their unique traits into the roleplay, it's never going to come across well. Give them realistic NPC reactions, give them interactions with their culture, give them opportunities to show off their unique species talents in ways that don't feel arbitrary.

Mr Cruise, I must confess I greatly dislike your films. And I'm very sorry for that snarky review that said you only have one acting expression, that of a 'chipmunk with severe constipation'.

That said, you make a jolly good forum post, and I salute that. (And I must say, you look good for your age!)

I agree that a good GM should work with the players to bring out situations where they can both play up and avert their racial stereotypes. The 'Planet of Hats' trope is in full effect in Star Wars of course (which was recently addressed in the MarcyVerse in fact, though it degenerated into a discussion of the adult film industry... In fact, one of our PCs bears a striking resemblance to zabrak starlet Bayla Bae, who won the ABA 21 ‘Best New Performer’ at last year’s Mind Evaporator Awards... But - as usual! - I digress...)

In our groups (and okay, they are most very human-like aliens) there's a number of human/nonhuman relationships that actually address the racial angle in various different ways (the droid/jedi forbidden love thing is a particularly nice one). I do ask that players put some effort into any character, but those wishing to play non-humans should incorporate that into their role-playing (same as anything else I guess). We even see this in some of the pregens in the Beginner's set (the butch, non-stripperific female twi'lek bounty hunter in full armour, for instance). Another angle is the one Desslok's latest character took, someone who grew up outside their own racial stereotypes.

In all honesty, I can't help but feel Archylte's issues are more about certain players than just 'nonhuman characters'. Some players don't especially want to role-play, or aren't good at it, and probably play things that don't speak Basic partly to get out of having dialogue. I'm sure any decent player could make any species a well-played character though.

For us, we want that human/humanoid element to be front and centre (and have something our artists are able or willing to draw!) so I do restrict player choices in that regard. But that kind of thing will vary from table to table, and I understand why some groups will want to play exotic characters.

20 minutes ago, KungFuFerret said:

Good for them then. I haven't watched it yet so I can't comment, but if they are taking time to give the aliens for variation, then I approve. I've never been a fan of the idea that aliens are so different from us, that they all toe the same line without any deviation. And yet they are so much like us in every other way.

I can see an argument that the differences between us and them are so great, and the variation among them so subtle or hard to discern from our point of view, that they would appear as a mono-culture to us, even if they are as varied as humanity from their own point of view. But that's something that would work in a novel, not in an RPG, I think.

58 minutes ago, KungFuFerret said:

But this isn't an issue with humans, because it's just assumed they will be as culturally diverse as we are on Earth now. They don't assume everyone is the same political views, the same religion, etc, because that's how variant humans are. But the aliens? They usually don't get enough screen time to actually show variations, at least not in movies. TV shows tend to have more flexibility in this, as they can give members of the alien species an arc that changes over time, making it feel more believable. Like Rom's son from Deep Space 9 (I forget his name, but the kid that decides to join Starfleet, the first Ferengi to do so). Or the aliens on Babylon 5 (my personal favorite), who are shown to have some very distinct, and diverse lines in their cultures, that normally would never even be hinted at elsewhere.

*The son was Nog btw

As a counter point that every alien is a "planet of hats" and humans are unique. From an alien perspective one might look at humans and also see Humans with one single defining trait... that we value individualism above all else, even to the detriment of us as a Species. An example of this could be the First Star Trek Next Gen episode where "Q" puts humanity on trial for being a horrible race.

To an outsider we might seem more Mono-cultured than someone within. Real life reflects this constantly, just think about the country you live in and the diversity and subtlety that makes up your "society". Now think of a country you know little about half way around the globe. Without intimating any negativity, don't they seem much more one dimensional simply because you aren't a part of their race/culture/society?

Humans are almost always going to be portrayed as more diverse than Alien species. That's our human nature to be Biased toward known vs the unknown. While that bias is not necessarily negative, Personally I really like the idea of challenging the Idea that the ideals of Humans are better than Aliens. BREAK FREE OF YOUR HUMAN BIAS!

28 minutes ago, Maelora said:

Mr Cruise, I must confess I greatly dislike your films. And I'm very sorry for that snarky review that said you only have one acting expression, that of a 'chipmunk with severe constipation'.

That said, you make a jolly good forum post, and I salute that. (And I must say, you look good for your age!)

I agree that a good GM should work with the players to bring out situations where they can both play up and avert their racial stereotypes. The 'Planet of Hats' trope is in full effect in Star Wars of course (which was recently addressed in the MarcyVerse in fact, though it degenerated into a discussion of the adult film industry... In fact, one of our PCs bears a striking resemblance to zabrak starlet Bayla Bae, who won the ABA 21 ‘Best New Performer’ at last year’s Mind Evaporator Awards... But - as usual! - I digress...)

In our groups (and okay, they are most very human-like aliens) there's a number of human/nonhuman relationships that actually address the racial angle in various different ways (the droid/jedi forbidden love thing is a particularly nice one). I do ask that players put some effort into any character, but those wishing to play non-humans should incorporate that into their role-playing (same as anything else I guess). We even see this in some of the pregens in the Beginner's set (the butch, non-stripperific female twi'lek bounty hunter in full armour, for instance). Another angle is the one Desslok's latest character took, someone who grew up outside their own racial stereotypes.

In all honesty, I can't help but feel Archylte's issues are more about certain players than just 'nonhuman characters'. Some players don't especially want to role-play, or aren't good at it, and probably play things that don't speak Basic partly to get out of having dialogue. I'm sure any decent player could make any species a well-played character though.

For us, we want that human/humanoid element to be front and centre (and have something our artists are able or willing to draw!) so I do restrict player choices in that regard. But that kind of thing will vary from table to table, and I understand why some groups will want to play exotic characters.

Okay Marcy, come on.

I TRY not to like every single thing you post, I really do! It makes me seem weird(er) and stalker-ish, and I don't want to do it!

But if you keep making awesome points sprinkled with hilarious banter, I've just got nothing to work with! Stop being so awesome! For all our sakes !

44 minutes ago, Tom Cruise said:

I think it's worth noting that the GM should be providing opportunities for the alien PCs to play up their racial traits, if the GM wants them to become relevant to characterisation in an interesting way. Of course character aspects are going to feel cheap and shoehorned in if the GM isn't giving them room to be expressed organically. If the PCs are having to fight tooth and nail to get any mention of their unique traits into the roleplay, it's never going to come across well. Give them realistic NPC reactions, give them interactions with their culture, give them opportunities to show off their unique species talents in ways that don't feel arbitrary.

Tom Cruise is making suggestions for how to role play aliens. I am amused.

10 minutes ago, ThreeAM said:

*The son was Nog btw

As a counter point that every alien is a "planet of hats" and humans are unique. From an alien perspective one might look at humans and also see Humans with one single defining trait... that we value individualism above all else, even to the detriment of us as a Species. An example of this could be the First Star Trek Next Gen episode where "Q" puts humanity on trial for being a horrible race.

To an outsider we might seem more Mono-cultured than someone within. Real life reflects this constantly, just think about the country you live in and the diversity and subtlety that makes up your "society". Now think of a country you know little about half way around the globe. Without intimating any negativity, don't they seem much more one dimensional simply because you aren't a part of their race/culture/society?

Humans are almost always going to be portrayed as more diverse than Alien species. That's our human nature to be Biased toward known vs the unknown. While that bias is not necessarily negative, Personally I really like the idea of challenging the Idea that the ideals of Humans are better than Aliens. BREAK FREE OF YOUR HUMAN BIAS!

I can tell you that as a (non-Asian) American, I was amazed by the multitude of cultural and racial identities described when I visited China. I say described because I couldn't see the nuances unless they were specifically pointed out to me by the locals, and even then I understood little about them. That could be how we as humans see the SW aliens. They have lots of diversity that can only be seen from within the species own culture.

Just now, HappyDaze said:

I can tell you that as a (non-Asian) American, I was amazed by the multitude of cultural and racial identities described when I visited China. I say described because I couldn't see the nuances unless they were specifically pointed out to me by the locals, and even then I understood little about them. That could be how we as humans see the SW aliens. They have lots of diversity that can only be seen from within the species own culture.

Exactly. There may be plenty of nonhuman species that, to us, seem all the same, but, in reality, are just as diverse as humans. The differences between two Zabraks appear as negligible to us, in comparison to the difference between Zabraks and humans.

12 minutes ago, Absol197 said:

I TRY not to like every single thing you post, I really do! It makes me seem weird(er) and stalker-ish, and I don't want to do it!

But that's what I like most about you!

But okay, I'll try and be less awesome, the galaxy might depend on it, and the forum at the very least needs you focused on analysis, and working out when we'll get those Engineer books from those yak-riding mongols!

6 minutes ago, Stan Fresh said:

I can see an argument that the differences between us and them are so great, and the variation among them so subtle or hard to discern from our point of view, that they would appear as a mono-culture to us, even if they are as varied as humanity from their own point of view. But that's something that would work in a novel, not in an RPG, I think.

I would agree, but all we can operate on is the information provided to us by the creator. And when they don't ever even mention that there is variation in the culture, it would suggest their isn't any. There is no mention casually of the group of Vulcans for example, who don't believe in the dogma of Logic, and embrace their emotional nature as it is. There is no mention of a sect of the Ferengi that don't revolve around profit, and instead are their equivalent of the hippy treehuggers, for example. The closest we got, was the idea of allowing women to be just as money grubbing and fiscally savvy as the males.

If we ever had a B-plot of an episode revolve around 2 differing factions of any of the aliens, then that would support the idea that they are different. But you don't see it very much. Again, Babylon 5 did a lot to break this trope, in my opinion, but it still had it's "alien shorthand" in a lot of ways.

Also, they frequently emphasize just how alike we are. Which sort of defeats the "so alien they all look the same to me" viewpoint in my opinion. They will establish the aliens having ambition, anger, fear, dreams, etc. All these things that are just like us, so that there can be a medium of understanding, but then we're supposed to accept that they all worship the same Spaghetti Monster? I just don't think that's likely. If they are so much like us, that they basically ARE us, but with blue skin and eyebrow ridges, then why wouldn't they have people who say things like "I don't believe that thing you believe in"

8 minutes ago, ThreeAM said:

*The son was Nog btw

As a counter point that every alien is a "planet of hats" and humans are unique. From an alien perspective one might look at humans and also see Humans with one single defining trait... that we value individualism above all else, even to the detriment of us as a Species. An example of this could be the First Star Trek Next Gen episode where "Q" puts humanity on trial for being a horrible race.

To an outsider we might seem more Mono-cultured than someone within. Real life reflects this constantly, just think about the country you live in and the diversity and subtlety that makes up your "society". Now think of a country you know little about half way around the globe. Without intimating any negativity, don't they seem much more one dimensional simply because you aren't a part of their race/culture/society?

Humans are almost always going to be portrayed as more diverse than Alien species. That's our human nature to be Biased toward known vs the unknown. While that bias is not necessarily negative, Personally I really like the idea of challenging the Idea that the ideals of Humans are better than Aliens. BREAK FREE OF YOUR HUMAN BIAS!

Again, we can only operate off what the creator shows us in their story. And I'm sure that in a lot of ways we do look "all the same" to aliens. But aliens usually aren't the audience viewpoint for scifi. We are seeing it from the human perspective.

Not really sure about the "human ideals are better than aliens" comment? I'm pretty sure nothing I said implied I thought that way. I'm just referring to the narrative habit of many creators, to just make broad strokes when fleshing out the aliens, giving them only a few signature traits at best, and how it makes for a very homogeneous alien. I understand why they do this, from the viewpoint of "I only have 2 hours for this movie, and there is only so much script space I can devote to fleshing out everyone else". But it is still a reality of the genre, that they don't get fleshed out as much as most depictions of humans.

56 minutes ago, KungFuFerret said:

Good for them then. I haven't watched it yet so I can't comment, but if they are taking time to give the aliens for variation, then I approve. I've never been a fan of the idea that aliens are so different from us, that they all toe the same line without any deviation. And yet they are so much like us in every other way.

Agreed but Star Wars always aimed for that classic serial pulp sci fi setting. Aliens presented weren't really meant to be educated estimates of xeno anthropology, but more of dude in a gorilla mask that was painted blue and covered in glitter who sounded like a dock worker from a Humphrey Bogart movie.....

10 minutes ago, KungFuFerret said:

Not really sure about the "human ideals are better than aliens" comment? I'm pretty sure nothing I said implied I thought that way. I'm just referring to the narrative habit of many creators, to just make broad strokes when fleshing out the aliens, giving them only a few signature traits at best, and how it makes for a very homogeneous alien. I understand why they do this, from the viewpoint of "I only have 2 hours for this movie, and there is only so much script space I can devote to fleshing out everyone else". But it is still a reality of the genre, that they don't get fleshed out as much as most depictions of humans.

Sorry, While I quoted you my post wasn't directed at you. More like your post was my catalyst for my thinking and wanted to give you props.

My "you's" were meant as the broad/obtuse you (all you humans), not the acute you (ferret).

8 minutes ago, Maelora said:

But that's what I like most about you!

But okay, I'll try and be less awesome, the galaxy might depend on it, and the forum at the very least needs you focused on analysis, and working out when we'll get those Engineer books from those yak-riding mongols!

That's actually a trickier calculation than our first appears: with the stats the Universe gave to yaks, they interact really weirdly with the vehicle rules, meaning the FFAF (Fantasy Flight Air Force) is going to have a hard time talking them out long enough to get the books back.

And that's not even getting INTO how ridiculous the numbers are on a fully-modded Mongolian longbow with the Yakhorn Composite Fiber and Multi-Stringed attachments added on...

Needless to say, it might be a while...

12 minutes ago, 2P51 said:

Agreed but Star Wars always aimed for that classic serial pulp sci fi setting. Aliens presented weren't really meant to be educated estimates of xeno anthropology, but more of dude in a gorilla mask that was painted blue and covered in glitter who sounded like a dock worker from a Humphrey Bogart movie.....

Oh I know, I'm not criticizing the pulp genre, I'm just pointing out the shortcomings that are a result of that. When you try and stretch out that thin background over 30+ years of other stories and table top gaming, it begins to fray at the edges.

It results in alien descriptions at the gaming table, that are a sidebar at best, with very little in variation, as that sidebar is devoted to simply describing them in the basic sense.

It's a problem of simple construction. There are ways to alleviate it when you can, but for SW, for things that have already been established as "canon" it means you either have to make it up on your own (which is fine by me), or stick to the stereotype provided.

I mean look at how the humans in SW are varied, by planet no less. The Correlian humans are WAY different than the Mandalorians, both of which have had a lot of time devoted to fleshing out their differences from the other human types out there. How many alien species in SW can claim the same level of...well...speciation as humans? I think the Gand can? Simply because of the contradictory way they were described by different authors in the EU material. I'm genuinely curious if any of the other species presented have had that much variation established, because I can't think of any, not on the basis of the game rules I mean. And if there are, they are definitely in the minority of examples provided.

53 minutes ago, ThreeAM said:

To an outsider we might seem more Mono-cultured than someone within. Real life reflects this constantly, just think about the country you live in and the diversity and subtlety that makes up your "society". Now think of a country you know little about half way around the globe. Without intimating any negativity, don't they seem much more one dimensional simply because you aren't a part of their race/culture/society?

Yes, agreed (and that's something we do address in our games, in fact - one of our factions is mostly split along racial lines with the high-minded species fearing humans are an aggressive, ruthless people).

Most of that is down to time, though. In a movie, there's only a few minutes at most to make an impression, so sometimes they rely on old, easy stereotypes (Watto and the Nemoidians, for instance).

Much world-building was actually done by West End Games, which actually had the chance to name and define many of the species we take for granted today (just imagine if FFG were allowed to create their own stuff today!) If they had the opportunity to write a whole Rodian sourcebook, say, we'd see a great variety of Rodian cultures and places, each with their own opinions and conflicts and beliefs. But they had a LOT of races to get through, so they went with Planet of Hats as a default - Greedo was a rubbish bounty hunter, so all Rodians are rubbish bounty hunters.

One of my friends actually pointed out that Jar-Jar Binks, of all people, is actually an outlier for his species, as we see gungans are not only racially diverse (Boss Nass almost looks like a whole other species) but they're also not clownish and comic like Jar-Jar, and in fact they seem to find his antics embarassing. It's sort of like having someone like Kim Jong-un representing the entirety of humanity.

So yeah, averting stereotypes is a good thing, when it's done well. Anyone ever played Planescape: Torment? Most of your companions in that game make a real effort to go against the grain. There's Morte, who's a floating skull, but is laid-back and jocular and very unlike any other undead creature you're likely to meet. Dak'kon and Nordom avert their racial stereotypes by being the exact opposite alignment for their respective races, and Fall-From-Grace absolutely smashes the Planet of Hats thing to smithereens by being a virginal, Lawful Good succubus who runs a charm-and-beauty school called the Brothel of Slaking Intellectual Lusts. (I swear I'm not making that up, but I dearly wish I'd been the one to have thought of it!)