LuciusT said:

I'd like to make a comment here. In the WH40k game, space marines and chaos space marines have BS 4, WS 4, ST 4, T 4. That means any checks made by them would succeed on a 3+ using a d6. Since we're using a percentile system, 3+ is a 67% chance likelyhood of success. I think you should probably revise these stats to be in the mid to high 60's to give these characters some parity with the wargame.

That's brutal stuff!!!!

WS 67 BS 67 S 67 T 67 AG 67 IN 40 PER 67 FEL 40

Other than that, I agree. Of course, I'm already factoring in the effects of power armour. You could adjust downward a bit on strength to account for the power armor add.

Those characteristics are a bit excessive, I think.

Remember, our 'official' deathwatch marine has characteristics closer with the 40s, and that at least two physical attributes are Unnatural. Our only DH-Canon marine so far is hitting people at a SB of 10 (4x2+2) and has an effective TB of 8 and armour of 10-12. That's 18-20 damage/AP you have to deal before you even start to scratch those 20+ wounds.

I honestly think that's a pretty good set of characteristics so far. I don't see a need to add another ~4SB and 4TB.

I'd probably say that Ws or Bs should be about 50 in D. That is to say as good as their genetics enhancements are (most of which are accounts for by the phrase Unnatural toughness btw) they still need to learn to fight like normal people and you'll find that the Imperial Guard (and by extension potential PC's) has a number of people that can shoot as well as a space marine.

There gear is going to good (or more likely best) quality. the knife is probably the equivalent of a sword and there guns are the fabled Astartes boltguns (2d10 damage).

Space marines are strong army not individual super gods. They don't usually run around on their own if they did they would be fairly easy targets for the inquisiton but as even a single squad they'll be a lot of trouble.

Of course that's where the GM comes in to make make it balanced encounter.

Keep in mind when "porting" stats back and forth from WH40K TT and DH that the roleplaying game has widened the range of human potential range in order to give suitable differentiation between characters and baddies. It is quite appropriate in a mineatrures game to have 200 guardsmen with identical stats. In a RP game this is clearly a BORING situation, so the number scale is broadened to make room for dramatic license.

Case in point: Granted he is an extreme case, but the Techpriest in my game is now up to a TB7. Yes, a SEVEN! He has made several sacrifices and tradeoffs to get there, but he is now a pretty good case study for the "Flesh is weak" ethos of the Cult Mechanicus. Obviously if I were to convert the characters in my game to TT stats he would not have a T7, since not even the most "MechaGodzilla'ed" Techmarine is anywhere near that tough. Certainly a T4 or possibly even squeaking out a T5 (equal to a Plaguemarine!) would fit.

WS and BS are fairly easy. Use the TT stat as your starting 10's digit and then roll a D10, counting a 10 as 0 so you generate a 0-9 range and stick this on the end. This gives most orks and "whiteshields" a BS of 20-29, most trained soldiers (like Imperial Guardsmen) in the 30-39 range, veteran soldiers and "generic/rookie" marines in the 40-49 range. Heroes of the Imperium fall into the 50-69 range because they are filled to overflowing with "awesome sauce".

Other stats require a little more judgement and thought, but should not be all that difficult. Really high or low numbers probably mean you should rethink that stat conversion.... (maybe). If your numbers are really high it is a good idea to consider slashing the raw stat down to something more manageable and add the "Unnatural X" trait instead, since we have several published examples of this (Ogryns, Space Marines and Eldar in particular).

IF you have the DH GM screen then there is a fun tool at your disposal to quickly make distinctive sergeants and other noteworthy folks in otherwise identical sets of mooks. Make a roll or two on the random NPC improvement charts in the GM screen and apply the changes to the sergeant while leaving his troops at baseline. Do this a few times and even a big pack of what should be "vanilla" opponents/allies quickly gain distinction and character.

LeBlanc13 said:

By that logic a standard DH guardsman should have a WS 50, BS 50, S 50, T 50, Ag 50 and Per 50.

I think what you're overlooking here is the modifiers in DH. It's fairly easy to get a +20 modifier to a check. For instance aiming and red-dot sight, or autofire, or aiming and short range all modify a BS 45 to a 65% chance of success.

Yes, the tabletop is not the only source for stats in DH. Yes, DH gives humans a broader range of stats that is found in the current edition of 40K. (It's worth noting that the earliest editions of the tabletop (and the new Guard codex) gave "heroic" humans a broader stat range.) However, I don't think you can ignore the fact that "human average" stat bonus in DH is 3 and "human average" stat on the tabletop is 3. You will never convince me that that is a coincidence.

LuciusT said:

Okay, then I'll never convince you. Thanks for saving me from a long and drawn out argument.

I read at one point that Sergeant Agamorr from the Purge the Unclean book is representative of a space marine sergeant. Nowhere in his description does it say he's a veteran... although, he has a really cool thunder hammer. His stats are fairly impressive when you look at them. I agree that the stats in DH tend to differ a bit from the tactical game so I understand where most are coming from on this.

Agamorr's stats are probably closer to what a marine should look like. I was just converting directly from the stats in 40k and fudging on the non-40k stats.

Another poster mentioned that marines individually would be taken down in a fight fairly easily. I tend to disagree based on the fluff. A company of marines (100 men) are enough to subjugate an entire planet based in the fluff. In the Ultramarines novels, 30 men quelled a chaos uprising on a planet and they only lost about half their number to get it done. Most were just too injured to fight anymore. They don't generally die very easy.

The fluff makes space marines out to be gods among men. The reason they seem frail at times is they are fighting things that normal men alone couldn't hope to come up against and survive the encounter.

I think when Deathwatch comes out, we'll be seeing an incredible difference in starting stats for marines versus DH characters.

But, those are just my thoughts.

LeBlanc13 said:

I think the 'selected to serve in the Deathwatch' and 'was so good at killing aliens that he stayed in the Deathwatch for an extra three decades after his initial decade-long term of service was concluded' parts pretty much cover the whole 'veteran' thing.

You don't get into the Deathwatch without being damned good at killing in the Emperor's name, which suggest that Agamorr is somewhat special by Astartes standards anyway. After that, you pile on forty years of experience fighting as a member of the Deathwatch.

I think it's safe to assume that he's a veteran. That kind of skill and experience would likely have seen him receive the Crux Terminatus and entry into the 1st Company, were he still with his Chapter.

N0-1_H3r3 said:

With beings that can live as long as space marines (averaging 200 and one in particular over 800 years old) promotions come slowly. Unless, of course you're in the Crimson fists. They're looking for a few good men, I hear.

So being in the Deathwatch for 30+ years doesn't guarantee veteran status. It does guarantee being a seriously tough dude though.

Veterans are old in space marine chapters 30 years is a piddling amount of time to be considered a veteran. Anyone that makes it that quickly is probably a phenom.

Anyway, this is all conjecture anyway unless someone pipes up from GW.

LeBlanc13 said:

Essentially the same thing, really.

LeBlanc13 said:

]Veterans are old in space marine chapters 30 years is a piddling amount of time to be considered a veteran. Anyone that makes it that quickly is probably a phenom.

Age isn't important, nor length of service... it's skill, dedication and a willingness towards self-sacrifice. A Marine could serve three or four centuries (the typical 'upper end' of Astartes ages) without ever being more than a brother or sergeant in one of the battle companies, but a particularly talented and heroic Marine could end up a veteran by the end of his first century.

He's not exactly a young marine either - he's pushing 200, the last three decades of which are Deathwatch service (misremembered it when I wrote my previous post). Being in the Deathwatch alone doesn't guarantee veteran status, no... but he's been fighting in service to the Emperor for more than a hundred and fifty years, and will have seen countless battlefields and faced down innumerable foes (particularly unusual xenos ones - the kind he has a particular knack for eliminating, prompting the extension of his term with the Deathwatch). He's got experience, skill, a demonstrable tendancy to hurl himself into mortal danger for all the right reasons (as he does during the scenario in which he appears), and is already sufficiently honoured to be granted the use what is described in his background sidebar as an 'ancient' thunder hammer, and to be a member of the Deathwatch.

If that whole package doesn't define an Astartes veteran, then I don't know what would qualify.

LeBlanc13 said:

You're quite welcome. Happy to help.

LuciusT said:

Coincidence, no...

But consider that there is still a difference. WS, BS, S, T and I 3 is not 'human average' in 40k, at least as commonly presented. It's the baseline characteristics for Imperial Guardsmen. Not an untrained civilian (which the average roll of 31 produces), who have lower stats as demonstrated by the Imperial Guard Conscript rules, for example.

Similarly, Strength 3 in 40k encompasses everything up to the strength of Orks, yet we're told by the background that Orks are stronger than humans.

The characteristics for the tabletop game are extremely broad abstract values, and unsuitable for direct, unthinking conversion to 40kRP (this is ably demonstrated by monster characteristics vs PC advancement in WFRP1 and WFRP2 as well - a Human Champion with average starting strength can obtain a total Strength of 56... which isn't that far away from the strength of a Dragon; a Halfling Champion with a similar number of advances can punch as hard as an inexperienced Ogre, in spite of the Ogre being about four times the height and possessing far, far more muscle mass). Comparative benchmarks are one thing - a Space Marine should be stronger than an Ork, who should be tougher than a human, who should be less agile than Eldar, and so forth - but "tabletop characteristic x10" tends to fall down fairly quickly, especially when you start pitting such roughly-approximated NPCs against typical player characters, whose 'average' characteristics have been advanced somewhat...

N0-1_H3r3 said:

Now, I must disagree that an untrained civilian has a WS or BS of 31 in Dark Heresy. The Citizen stats in the back of the book are plainly WS 20, BS 20... very much in keeping with the Conscripts WS 2, BS 2.

I don't understand what this is such a contentious issue. Dark Heresy is based on Warhammer 40k. Dark Heresy stats are based on Warhammer 40K stats. I am not advocating slavish adherence to the idea that DH stats must always equal Warhammer 40 stats x10. I am, however, saying that such a conversion gives us a good place to start from. I am amazed that this is such a radical concept especially when, looking at the NPC stats in the core rulebook, it seems to me to be born out time and again.

LeBlanc13 said:

That's exactly what I said.

A hundred men is 10th of Chapter and an army in and of it's self. You could tell me they could beat an army of 10,000 men and I'd belive you.

But 1 space marine isn't going to take out a hundred troops.

Face Eater said:

Depends on the author.

LuciusT said:

Except it's really not.

The NPC stats in the rulebook are primarily human, and consequently, regardless of their actual stats, would likely be represented by stats close to those of an Imperial Guardsman in 40k in most cases. Hells, even the strongest Sister of Battle character (who, in power armour, would be running around with a strength bonus of 7, maybe even 8) is still only Strength 3 in 40k, so clearly, the things that're strength 4 in 40k must be more than +10 above the 'human average' baseline, else they quickly become overshadowed by things that're supposed to be weaker than them.

The daemons... well, Daemons are an inherently subjective matter, owing to the vagaries of the Warp, summoning and/or manifestation, and so forth. Beyond that, I don't honestly believe that they fit with the established scale precisely because they adhere to the '40k stat x10' principal.

I recall reading the comments of one of the members of the 40k design team, back when 40k and WFB had separate design teams - it was either Andy Chambers or Gav Thorpe - that stated that the characteristics were not representative of a linear progression of ability, but rather that each score represented twice the ability as the one before it - so Strength 4 is twice as strong as Strength 3, and Strength 5 is twice as strong as Strength 4. Personally, I don't adhere perfectly to that, either, but I'm far more inclined to represent significant differences in ability (that is, ones significant enough to actually make a difference in the tabletop game) using Unnatural Characteristics than 'tabletop stat x10'. Given the array of creatures seen so far, this approach appears to be broadly true for the writers working for FFG - Orks get Unnatural Toughness (x2), Kroot get Unnatural Strength (x2), Eldar get Unnatural Agility (x2), Astartes get Unnatural Strength and Unnatural Toughness (x2).

The characteristics in the tabletop game, IMO, work best for subjective comparison (is X stronger than Y? Is Y stronger than Z?), rather than as a baseline for a strict conversion.

LeBlanc13 said:

Okay, lets see... Marines do not tire, they do not suffer from psychological damage when exposed to months of continous combat, they don't need sleep. Their ceramid-reinforced body is almost impervious to bullets and lasers even without Power Armor which alone is enough to bounce laser shots. Considering what kind of damage 100+ US Special Forces operators did in Afghanistan during 2001 (they pretty much conquered the country with 100 men on ground... which is a good comparison since SM company of 100 marines also has its own air-support) I can easily see Marines conquering planets.

However, if you shoot a marine with plasmagun it makes no difference if the shooter was chaos marine or a illiterate, skinny child. The plasmagun hit *will* burn through the power armor and the body of the marine and *will* kill him. No god-mode there.

Thus if a lone marine marches up to 5+ guys wielding plamsaguns, meltas and heavy bolters there is a very real chance that he will lose his life in the process. Thats why marines never operate alone, they never walk up into a fight unprepared and they always have the best support the company has to offer. They conquer planets because in addition to being toiugher than normal people, they wield the best armor and weapons and fight smart. And you don't need godmode stats to fight smart.

A chaos marine should beat the living crap out of acolytes unless caught with pants-down (yeah, fat chance) but not because he has uber-kill-everything stats, but because he has so extensive combat experience that he will be hunting the acolytes down one-by-one, forcing them into situations where they simply can't win.

Polaria said:

Not that I'm criticising in any way the competency of US Army Special Forces (they are highly competent) but they did have some help in Afghanistan, including from the Australian SAS who were deployed to Afghanistan to assist them late in that year. The Aussie SASR conducted recon, surveillance and offensive operations, fought alongside the US Marines in southern Afghanistan and withdrew from the country in November 2002 having played an important role in Operation Anaconda.

Sorry, just had to stick up for my countrymen!

I do agree with everything you said about Space Marines.

Plus British SAS and Marine Commando units, which helped take out a lot of strategic positions.

Saying the American Special Forces did it all is like saying one squad of SMs from a single chapter did it, despite there being several chapters actually having been there assisting.

MILLANDSON said:

Yes, but people only care about the Ultramarines.

Artemesia said:

Nah, Ultramarines are dull and no one likes them. I wanna hear about the Blood Angels and Raven Guard forces

Polaria said:

Or... not. A plasma cannon, sure. The blast from a plasmagun will probably burn through the armour (though much of the energy will be absorbed) and could cause a severe wound, possibly crippling an arm or a leg. The Marine will be hindered somewhat (limping or lose use of an arm), but will ignore the pain and will continue fighting regardless.

Marine's are dangerous because they fight smart and almost impossible to kill, or even slow down.

LuciusT said:

I don't think Space Marines are intended to be that weak. They're supposed to be able to stand toe-to-toe against some pretty gnarly stuff, not get taken out by a dozen hive gangers.

Maybe not raw recruits (the difference between Normal IG and the conscripts are huge) but i think trained IG troops or hardened renagades would be likely

Face Eater said:

I don't think that it's something that should be stated in absolute terms. If the Guardsmen are well-led, well-equipped, and the conditions (availability and placement of cover, difficulty of terrain, visibility) are beneficial to them, then they've got a much greater chance of defeating a given number of Space Marines... but that also depends on the context the Marines find themselves in as well - how are they approaching the battle (in vehicles, using jump packs, on foot, in a pod), how they're equipped (for close assault, with heavy weapons, a mixture of the two), and again the quality of their leadership and tactics.

Put the Guardsmen in a fortified position (assume aegis-pattern defence lines - cover made from rockcrete, providing 16AP; an Astartes bolt shell, going by Brother-Sergeant Agamorr's bolt pistol, would deal 2d10 damage, Tearing, pen 5, so AP 16 cover blocks about half of incoming bolter fire), with heavy and special weapons (plasma gun and autocannon are good for bringing down heavy infantry), firing at marines on foot over a no-man's (no cover, but plenty of difficult terrain), starting at the maximum extent of lasgun range (400m extreme range; use aimed single shots to conserve ammo for the first 200m, then switch to semi-auto as the marines enter medium range, as the chance of actually hitting with additional shots becomes worthwhile at that point), and the Guardsmen have a good chance of triumphing.

On the other hand, an unprepared squad of Guardsmen who find themselves set upon by assault marines wearing jump packs, or a squad in a pod, will be butchered in short order.

A Space Marine is most deadly at close range. His strength is largely irrelevant if he's several hundred metres away, and at longer ranges the ability of the enemy to bring to bear heavy weapons capable of negating his heavy armour increases dramatically. While the Marines can operate at those sorts of distances (particularly in the hands of a marine, a bolter at 400m is far deadlier than a lasgun at 400m), being at close range makes the enemy less able to overcome them (if it takes you an average of, say, 5 rounds of shooting to bring someone down, and they're two rounds of movement away from putting their fist through your skull, then they have the advantage), particularly against enemies poorly-equipped for melee (primitive melee weapons will not harm a Space Marine).

It's those sorts of things that define the success of a conflict as much as the participants. And, because Space Marines are not unintelligent warriors, whose strategies and tactics are designed to take greatest advantage of their abilities, they're a terrifying foe. It's not just the physical might or the armour, or even the weapons... it's the intelligent use of those tools in combination.

So if guardsmen are well led, have good cover and heavy weapons with great lines of fire, yes, they'll stand a chance against marines. Though in that case I think the marines would probably close to range with the bolters and then start picking off the guardsmen, trusting their superior marksmanship to give them the advantage. I think Dead Eye shot would be appropriate for Tactical Marines.