So i've looked through the core rule book as well as the creature anthema and i can find no stats for the dreaded chaos space marine. I would like to know why that is. I would also like to hear what people think would be some good stats for them.

chaos space marines are far to powerful for a group of acolytes even rank eight an astartes could rip them like tissue paper, although i do remember a post here a long time ago with really nice examples of what choas astartes might be

An 'actual' chaos space marine is also even scarier than a normal marine because they've had millennia to practice their craft. A true heresy era marine would know every move you made before you made it, becuase they've seen every fighting style under the sun.

Hellebore

Here's my take on a generic Space Marine Battle Brother

Adeptus Astartes Battle Brother
WS 45 BS 45 S 45 T 45 Ag 40 Int 30 Per 40 WP 40 Fel 25
Skills: Awareness +10 (Per), Ciphers (Astartes Chapter) (Int), Climb (S), Common Lore (War) (Int), Concealment (Ag), Drive (Ground Vehicle) (Ag), Intimidate (S), Speak Language (Low Gothic) (Int), Survival +10 (Int)
Talents: Basic Weapon Training (Bolt, SP), Bulging Biceps, Chem Geld, Die Hard, Hardy, Heightened Senses (Sight, Sound, Smell), Iron Jaw, Jaded, Melee Weapon Training (Chain, Primitive), Nerves of Steel, Pistol Training (Bolt, SP), Quick Draw, Rapid Reload, Resistance (Fear, Poison), True Grit
Traits: Size (Hulking), Unnatural Strength (x2), Unnatural Toughness (x2)
Armor: Power Armor
Weapons: Bolter, Bolt Pistol, Mono-Knife, Frag Grenades
Gear: Purity Seals

A Chaos Marine would probably have more skills and talents, plus potential daemonic pacts or other unnatural powers.

Hellebore said:

I remember a background piece from one of the 2nd ed books, where a Chaos Space Marine is picking and choosing among his memories of the past year... which things does he want to keep, which does he want to forget... because he has lived so long he can longer hold it all in his mind.

Hellebore said:

Assuming, of course, that they've experienced time linearly as the most powerful of them have. In some cases, it may be that warriors who only months ago fought in the Siege of Terra find themselves in the midst of the 41st Millennium thanks to the timelessness of the Warp.

LuciusT said:

Looks pretty good I'd say.

I would also improve the power armour and bolt weapon damage to the levels we saw in Purge the Unclean (don't know if I'm allowed to quote the straight set of values), if only for consistency. I didn't see any Wounds there but the PtU marine had about 25 I think, so that sounds like a good benchmark to me.

Also. would you consider the size (Hulking) to be the marine as-is, and thus increased again through his armour?

Finally, for chaos marines, I guess one would add a mutation or two, and maybe add a few nice extra combat talents to represent their greater badassery. It shouldn't be too much of a notekeeping problem because in all reality one shouldn't have to fight multiples of these guys.

You might use the section on deamon hosts for daemonic abilities/ mutation (or custom build it), other than that whats been said so far seems good.

The Hobo Hunter said:

Looking at our dear Brother-Sergeant , he himself is not classified as "hulking" as noted in his profile under his armor; the armor makes him so. So... I would think with armor.

-=Brother Praetus=-

Thy are mentioned in Rogue Trader. So I expect one to show up shortly in that line of supplements. Somewhere in the Koronus Expanse is a Chaos Space Marine.

LuciusT said:

Yes. I loved that piece of fiction. The chaos Marine's mind was still mostly human and could hold only a finite amount of memories, so he kept going insane with the overflowing thoughts... I loved it.

Also, I'd give some chaos marines weaknesses to go with their corruption, like malignancies, only more pronounced. Also remember that mutations can be detrimental as well as beneficial.

LuciusT said:

The characters in my game would tear the crap out of this.

ZillaPrime said:

And so they should, if the Chaos marine ever is stupid enough to take on 4+ armed-to-the-teeth Inquisitorial acolytes on a flat ground. The Space Marines do not kick ass just before they are tough guys individually, they do so because when the chapter is working together it is more than sum of its parts. Much, much more.

Take a little example from real life : A group of 6 members of LA SWAT decide to raid a druglab with several dozen people inside. They recon the site, pick the best ways to enter it come in blowing down a door, flashbanging everyone inside and rush in before anyone can even blink their blinded eyes. Result: 20 captured felons, no casualties. If the same 6 guys of LA SWAT walk to a basketball court to take on a western-style shootout with 20 members of MS-13 all armed with AKs. Well, we'll see a lot of bodies, but 6 of them will be the SWAT guys who were stupid enough to walk into impossible situation.

Now, give them SWAT guys superhuman strenght and toughness and a shitload of more training. Yes, they are even scarier but as long as they don't turn invulnerable to bullets a hail of 600 bullets from 20 guns will still down them no questions asked.

People who fight for living don't just train shooting, 90% of what they do train is how to pick your fights and turn the tables to favor you.

I think those stats are a wee bit low perhaps. A standard marine goes into battle with a Bolt Pistol, eight rounds in the clip and four extra clips. A total of 40 rounds. At maximum that equals 40 kills. But that's based on that they are raiding a drug lab with crazed cultists. Which of course they aren't. They are fighting daemons, chaos marines, tyranids, eldar, orc. You're worst possible nightmare is their every day. They move with lightning speed, reflexes, muscles.. You don't pit 4 marines against 4 lvl 8 Acolytes, even if they are armed to the teeth with power armor and all that fancy stuff.

All the four Acolytes would loose initiative and act last in the round. The marines would not miss, headshots, bolter rounds.. Dead acolytes.

Now put four chaos marines covered in unholy symbols and reeks of evil. First forcing the acolytes to perform a -30 WP Fear Test. Then daemonic presence and I would throw in a general -10 just because they are fighting freaking chaos marines.. And then we haven't even begun throwing in the various mutations or chaos 'gifts'.

One Chaos Marine is enough as a final boss. Remember Eisenhorn killed a Chaos Marine out of pure dumb luck, if that book hadn't been there in that exact moment he would be one dead Inquisitor. And Eisenhorn is a pretty bad ass dude.

omgbambi said:

Word.

ZillaPrime said:

Probably. The above is based on the tabletop stats, not lurid prose. I would expect a half dozen elite troops to be able to take down a single Space Marine. Even a half dozen raw recruits with lasguns would have at least a chance against one.

omgbambi said:

Marines based on lurid prose. Like I said, mine are based on tabletop stats. Tough, yes. Unstoppable, no.

omgbambi said:

I agree that calling for Fear checks would be appropriate when facing Chaos Marines. I would also give a Chaos Marine more skills and talents than a standard Battle Brother, as well mutations, dark pacts and other nastiness. However, I think the final results ought to depend on the role of the character in the adventure. A line Marine could just be a very tough mook. Now a veteran Marine, a Deathwatch Marine, a Marine officer... those guys are tough.

If you make an average Marine an unstoppable warmachine than you've got no "up" to go to when you want a really tough veteran marine.

omgbambi said:

Mandragore Carrion was not a line Marine. He was a Chaos Champion and so a bit tougher then even an average Marine.

LuciusT said:

I doubt the outcome would have been very much different if it had been a 'regular' Chaos Marine.

LuciusT said:

Well mine are based on the Fluff (mainly because I don't like to play TT) so I guess our two 'lines' differ here. Either you go for the TT marine or the Fluff Marine. And for the TT Marine those stats are pretty good I guess.

As a balanced abstract of the setting, the stats for the tabletop really aren't the best place to start for stats for DH/RT, as that is extrapolating the stats from one abstract to another abstract.

Extrapolating the rules for Space Marines from the one already existing and statted Space Marine would be a lot more logical, and closer to what their stats should be than trying to base it off the tabletop.

MILLANDSON said:

Now I didn't mean to convert a TT Marine more like, using a TT marine as a template for figuring out how the stats for a Marine. Which in my opinion has been done by The Patriot and his merry men in the fan made Adeptus Astartes supplement.

So, based on their Prerequisites is WS: 30 BS: 30 STR: 30 T: 30 and WP/FEL/PER being whatever.

MILLANDSON said:

Firstly, the only example of a DH Space Marine that we have is a Deathwatch Veteran Sergeant, about as a close to the toughest kind of Space Marine as you can get... Grey Knight Librarians notwithstanding. It would be like using stats for special forces commando as a model for every guy in the army. I don't buy it.

Secondly, where do you think these character stats come from in the first place? Answer: the tabletop. Mind you, I do think DH is based on the old 2nd ed tabletop stats, where Imperial Guard officers were tougher then basic Tactical Marines. Still, it's worth remembering that all this stuff has it's roots in the table top miniatures wargame. Forget that and you've lost. IMO.

omgbambi said:

I was actually replying to Lucius, and all his stuff about "lurid prose", etc.

And if Patriot's supplement is still up for download somewhere, it shouldn't be. GW ordered everywhere to take it down due to the sheet number of WD articles, codex contents, and images, all copyright GW, that got plagurised and used in it. Anywhere still having it up for download is dicing with GW smacking them with a legal case.

@Lucius: Yes, but you can still, more easily, extrapolate from a set of stats already in the DH system rather than trying to interpret it from the strict blanaced and simplified rules of the tabletop game.

The tabletop game is a representation of the setting and the background designed for small/large scale tabletop battles battles, not the other way around. Use the tabletop stats as the be all and end all, and you've lost, IMO.

MILLANDSON said:

On that last point, we are in complete agreement.

I use the tabletop stats as a place to start, a baseline on which to build. From there, adjustments must be made to suit the differences in mechanics. However, without that baseline, we're building on sand.

MILLANDSON said:

Oh I had no idea about that.

And I firmly believe that role playing in the 41st Century, where The Emperor of Mankind sits on his golden throne.. etc. Is way more fun than role playing a tabletop game. But that's just me

Dont forget the bonuses that the armour will give, in the Fire Warrior game chaos boltguns had 20 rounds in 4 more than the standard boltgun. and it would also depend if he was a plague marine.