Though I have to chime in with a bit of a side note at this point just to say that the Astartes Thunderhammer wielded by Agamorr is pretty crap. Give me a standard power sword any day of the week! Hell, it's the same weapon but with no parry and the Shock quality.

As an Astartes issue I'd have thought it would pack a bigger punch, especially after seeing some of the weapon stats in Rogue Trader...

He should seriously think of trading it in for a Powerfist if he's going down the "bad at parrying" route! Especially the one from Rogue Trader, maybe as a Good or Best quality weapon too

macd21 said:

Of course; for every tactic, there's a counter-tactic. But that doesn't mean the Guardsmen are utterly helpless... merely that the Marines are capable of fighting back against an entrenched foe.

Which really, is the idea. I'm largely against the concept of 'X would/should/must win against Y' comparisons (as they're so often caused by an individual's preference of a particular force's background), as so much of it is subjective to the conditions of battle and dozens of other factors. Given the right conditions, anyone can triumph, and it's the combination of natural talent, skill, insight and equipment (not to mention dumb luck) that define what 'the right conditions' are for a given warrior, and how well those conditions can be exploited.

Space Monkey said:

Purge the Unclean was the first book written, tested and published after the rulebook... so we didn't actually know what the official stats for a Power Fist were going to be until afterwards. I did put in a comment during the playtest about the Thunder Hammer being too weak based on my own judgements, but it never amounted to anything. I would've houseruled it for when I ran Shades on Twilight, but I ended up just replacing Agamorr with a Grey Knight Justicar instead (Space Marine with Psy Rating 3, a house-ruled Stormbolter, and a Sanctified, Pentagrammic-Warded, Force Great Weapon, and fully-warded Power Armour... the Warp Beasts virtually evaporated in his presence)

So that may mean that the "official" stats for a Space Marine (Agamorr) may well be quite obsolete by the time Deathwatch comes out.

After all, what with Mastered Skills and Paragon Talents coming out shortly, along with the type of weapon tech coming out in Rogue Trader and the Inquisitors Handbook the new "official" Space Marine may look very different to our dear Brother Sergeant.

But by the time Deathwatch appears I think some of the critters in Creatures Anathema may well need a re-write too...

Space Monkey said:

It would be a shame if that did happen. If it came to the point that Agamorr is unrecognizable in DW as a Space Marine because the system "evolves" (could say MUTATES) that far from the original set up.

But I am hoping that will not be the whole case.

My first hopes was that Acension was going to take the RT style of making characters. Increase stats to 25+2D10, add the origin chart, start at 500 XPs and so forth. But we know that isnt happening.

I am becoming more and more optimistic about paragon talents and mastered skills, as I see them now as extensions and not replacements. Paragon Talents especially, as they work as prerequisites that once met give you a "new" talent, or at least a new way to merge existing talents.

So here is hoping for either DW to mesh well with RT, DH and DH: Acension or for a year after DW comes out we get a revised 40K RPG Master Core Book

MILLANDSON said:

Thats hardly the point. The point is that a mere handfull of operators together with their supporting elements conquered a whole country.

And these operators are normal men... Highly trained, yes, but not bullet-proof and many of them had never fired a gun in anger when they went to Afghans. Furthermore none of them had the kind of equipment advantages the Space Marines have against PDF... A special forces operator cannot prance into hail of bullets without dying. It doesn't need an anti-tank rocket to kill one. He'll die when hit by a single kalashnikov round.

Space Marines *are* bulletproof against normal weapons. They are *not* normal men (hardly humans at all). They all *have* combat experience. So yes, a company of them should be enough to put down a planet.

However, that is still not because they are some god-mode unkillable combat monsters who just walk into a fight and shoot everything to bits. That kind of things won't happen since a simple line-company of Imperial Gaurd equivalent troops of any xeno or human faction has enough heavy weapons like plasmaguns, multimeltas, laser cannons and so on that if a Space Marine walks right up to them he will not only get killed. He will be vaporized in seconds. Just like a lone SF operaftor walking into middle of a platoon of talebans *will* die.

Space Marines win because they fight together and they fight smart. Not because they have uber-god-mode stats as individuals.

Also, a standard squad of space marines has a missile launcher and would cover that imperial guard plasma gun emplacement with frag missiles before they even came into range of the plasma weapons. Space Marines are bad juju for imperial guardsmen.

N0-1_H3r3 said:

Well of course there's a whole bunch of factors but as close as I can get to 'cannon' description is the Space Marine section in the 5th ed rule book which rather off handedly gives these odds.

It certainly doesn't hold water on even a moderate scale battle but a good SM comander would probably try not to put a 10 man squad against 120 normal troops at once.

Face Eater said:

Hell, a good SM sergeant wouldn't run those odds head on if he had a choice. Now, if it was a holding or delaying action, I'd put my money on a squad of 10 SM holding a company of IG miscreants with little damage to them until the heavy guns came to bear.

-=Brother Praetus=-

Face Eater said:

I think there's something often missed here... a lot of the utility of a Space Marine comes in concentration of force. A lone Tactical Marine may well be the equal of ten men in a fight, but he is still only one creature, with all that entails, and that's the point.

Astartes forces represent a similar degree of lethality in a much smaller space, allowing them to be wielded with greater precision and greater speed - a full company of Space Marines is like having a thousand guardsmen in terms of the force they can exert... but only taking up a tenth of the space, which means they can use terrain more effectively, are easier to deploy and retrieve, and can hit a given target harder than mundane armed forces would be able to.

It's like pressure - the combination of force and area. The Astartes pack a lot more force into a smaller area, so they exert greater 'pressure' when they strike. They don't need to fight off whole armies, because they've got the valuable ability to punch a hole in the enemy lines and rip out the heart without needing to waste time crushing the whole body in the process...

Polaria said:

Well, a handful of men + their support elements + the thousands of troops under the Norther Alliance + a couple thousand regular US troops.

The idea that a couple of spec ops guys took over Afghanistan is a myth.

Space marines (and other uber elites like eldar aspects) will most certainly work on an intra force multiplication. that is, One space marine might be the equal of 10 men, but two space marines are the equal of 25 men. It doesn't scale linearly. This would be down to combined training until the squad and marines in general can work off one another in sync, reacting at the same time as others and filling ever 'hole' in the battle plan at the right time.

A marine is proportionately more dangerous with his battle brothers by his side than he would be alone.

Hellebore

macd21 said:

Lets not forget a couple dozen combat cameramen from the 55th Combat Camera out of Fort Meade, Maryland. EYES OF THE ARMY!

And having been there a few times, Id like to mention, it isnt a conquored place.

Peacekeeper_b said:

Neither is any imperial planet after SM company has crushed the enemy there... its not like those 100 guys can be everywhere at once. However, in Imperial scale of things Imperium would label Modern Earth as "static, peacefull, no major rebellions, no major heresies" (or simply "mostly harmless")

As for the actual operation of conquering a planet... okay, lets assume some nasty xenos like Orks conquer an imperial planet and a company of space marines are sent to "deal with it". What would this actually mean on a sparcely habited planet the size of Sepheris Secundus:

- 100 Space Marines

- Space Marine Strike Cruiser with a crew of several thousand chapter bondsmen

- Remnants of the local Adeptus Arbites precinct-fortress with a regiment of Arbiters (1000 troops)

- Remnants of Royal Scourges (a few thousand troops)

- Remnants of the local nobles, merchant houses and spaceport security troops (a few thousand troops more)

- Tens of thousands of hastily trained miner-slaves armed with "whatever-you-can-find" recruited by Arbiters to bolster local PDF

Its not like the space Marines are the only "boots on the ground". In fact, they are a small minority. However, when stories are told and histories are written who do you think they remember? The space marine chapter bondsmen who operated the strike cruiser, oiled the marines armor and fed the marines? The local Royal Scourges who defended the capital palace for several days keeping hundreds of orks at bay with a few dozen men with lasers? The Arbiter who gathered a force of several hundred miners, armed them ffrom precinct house armory and conducted a suicidal counter-attack against orks to keep the space port in imperial hands? A plantoon of local merchant-house security contractors who were besieged on a rooftop of their own compound fighting hundreds of orks?

...or the Space Marines?

macd21 said:

I think a better example of the point being made is when 67 Aussie SAS troopers captured the massive Al Asad Airbase in Iraq on April 16 2003, which at the time was held by around 1000 Iraqi soldiers. Of course, that was an unusual situation. Like Space Marines, Australian SAS troopers are not like normal men

Polaria said:

It's a matter of context again, IMO.

If you're dealing with a human world in the midst of rebellion, it doesn't so much need to be conquered, so much as 'rendered compliant', to borrow the Crusade-era terminology. An Astartes task force can do that, because it doesn't necessarily require full-scale invasion or a mass of warriors, merely overwhelming force applied in the correct times and places to make the rebels capitulate out of fear and desperation. That was their role before the Heresy, for a significant part. In that regard, an Astartes force could take a world in a relatively short space of time.

A world held by Xenos may require large numbers of men to conquer, or it may require a targeted campaign of elimination to remove the enemy - depends on the Xenos and the world in question.

Here are the rules I used in my last campaign to put up against my party of five guys, short of heavy weapons he's probably not dying.

Chaos Space Marine
Stats
Ws 69
Bs 62
S 49 (8)
T 49 (8)
Ag 41
Int 36
Per 50
WP 42
Fel 30
Move:
4/8/16/24
Wounds:
17
Traits:
Weapon Mastery. Fire on the Move. Denizen of Warp. Fear 2. Horrific Mutant
Talents:
Bulging Biceps, Blade Master, Combat master, Cleanse & Purify, Crushing Blow, Disarm, Hardy, Mighty Shot, Fast Reload, Quick Draw, Two Weapon Weilder, Ambidexterity, Nerves of Steel, True Grit.
Equipment
Weapons
CL Bolt Gun( Good Quality, RDLS, TS, 1d10+5+2 Pen4, S/3/-, Range 110m)
2 Halucinagen Grenades
2 Firebombs
1 Krak Grenade
Armour
Chaos Power Armour (10, IR, PV, PR, Mag) (9 normally but is good quality)
Astartes Stim Injectors ( Unaffected by the effect of damage or critical Damage)
Built in Void Suit with Respirator.

Weapon Mastery
The Space marine is considered trained in any human, orc or close combat weapon he picks.
Due to his special Augmentations the Space marine may have a gun with multiple sights but only one may be used at a time.
Fire on the Move
The Space marine can move half action and still fire semi auto with a basic or pistol weapon and may move a full action and fire on single shot
Denizen of the Warp
The Chaos Space Marine is completely immune to the fear caused by demons and warp dwelling creatures. He causes a Fear 2. And his presence is detected by phyckers as a malelovance and darkness in the void nearby. Also any Chaos marine may have a mutation randomly rolled on the charts and they have d6 malignancies.
Horific Mutant
All Chaos Marines have a Mutation of one kind or another. All people find it discomforting to be around them if they can see the mutations or their face. Resulting in a -20 to all checks to concentrate or bring together information, or to issue commands or receive commands while within 30 and viewing a CSM.
Space marines and Inquisitors and any foe that hates them do not suffer from this effect, even foes immune to fear are distracted by the mutation.

If there are any other chaos abilities and mutation stuff a normal chaos space marine might have access to please post.

LuciusT said:

I used this to build a Flawless Host Slaaneshi space marine for my campaign use, by making following adjustments:

WS 45 BS 45 S 45 T 45 Ag 50 Int 32 Per 45 WP 45 Fel 30

Skills: Awareness +10 (Per), Climb (S), Common Lore (War) (Int), Concealment (Ag), Drive (Ground Vehicle) (Ag), Intimidate (S), Speak Language (Low Gothic) (Int), Survival +10 (Int), Chem Use +10 (In), Demolitions (Int), Charm (Fel), Deceive (Int), Carouse +10 (T), Forbidden Lore (Warp, Demonology) +10 (Int)

Talents: Basic Weapon Training (Bolt, SP), Bulging Biceps, Die Hard, Hardy, Heightened Senses (Sight, Sound, Smell), Iron Jaw, Jaded, Melee Weapon Training (Chain, Primitive), Nerves of Steel, Pistol Training (Bolt, SP), Quick Draw, Rapid Reload, Resistance (Fear, Poison), True Grit, Combat Master, Lighting Reflexes, Two-weapon wielder, Gunslinger, Mighty Shot

Traits: Fear 2, Size (Hulking), Unnatural Strength (x2), Unnatural Toughness (x2)

Armor: Power Armor (AP 9)
Weapons: Bolter (+1 dmg quality), Bolt Pistol (+1 dmg quality), Chain Sword (+1 dmg quality), Frag Grenades

I fully expect that if the Acolytes don't do their homework and prepare the fight will go something like this:

Round #1: Acolytes sneak into the building and acolyte A will try to find a flanking sniper position. I'll make him roll an awareness check which, if failed, leads to booby trapped frag grenade exploding when he reaches the most obviously best ambush position available.

Round #2: Acolytes move to see the cause of explosion and/or the reported trap.

Round #3-4: the Acolyte left a few meters back to guard the rear will get frag grenade thrown at him. Along with the grenade the CSM charges in firing bolter and bolt pistol simultaneously, Acolyte will make fear check, get damage from grenade and get shot several times from few meters away and will die.

Round #5-6: Smoke clears, rest of acolytes fire suppressive fire. CSM beheads the dead acolyte and leaves.

Round #7: Acolytes find the head of their late comrade (booby-trapped with frag grenade, of course)

Round #8-10: Frustrating cat-and-mouse game when acolytes try to find the CSM while avoiding possible traps.

Round #11 or so: A few of the acoluytes will be pissed and start to make mistakes, the whole group will get grenaded at worst possible moment, followed by charging CSM firing bolter and bolt pistol

Round #12 or so: CSM charge hits home and several acolytes are severely wounded and/or maimed by grenade and precise shots.

Round #13 or so: CSM takes fire from acolytes, takes a few wounds and fakes retreat while still pumping bolter rounds into acolytes.

Round #14-20 or so: CSM vanishes back to continue the mission the acolytes interrupted leaving booby traps behind.

Several hours later: Local security force or Adeptus Arbites finds the missing body of the dead acolyte and get blown to bits by frag grenade booby trap.

Polaria said:

Dear God-Emperor. You really are going to stick it to them. What level are the characters and what gear do they have?

I know what my reaction to facing a frakking genuine Traitor Marine would be: RUN LIKE HELL. Actually did this once. After lobbing two or three grenades at the bastards with no visible effect...

Bah my player's Secutor with his BQ multi-laser, 15 AP, 8 TB, 16 SB, Amulet of Warding, and Unnatural Intelligence could destroy the CSM. Hell he'd probably outsmart him also. My point is that no sane player will engage a superior foe without their own superior force.

On an unrelated note, me and my players are frothing for Ascension. Interrogator, Magos, and Primaris.

Aajav-Khan said:

Well, the squad is around Rank 3 and their currently available equipment is limited to stuff Adeptus Arbites squad has (personal equipment is along lines of mesh armor, flak cloaks, shotguns, laser pistols etc.)... Which does, incidentally, include some really nasty stuff like a fully pimped up Rhino, too.

However, the "best-case" scenario from the Acolyte viewpoint is that they can find and identify the Traitor Marine and present the case to their Inquisitor with ample evidence. In which case the Inquisitor will order an elimination of the marine and provide the Acolytes with rank 6 death-cult assassin and and a few dozen of Inquisitorial Storm Troopers for backup. Epic fight, yes, but Acolytes have a chance and since they lead and command the operation it will still ultimately be up to them if it succeeds or fails.

The "not-so-good-case" scenario is that they fumble up, get made and will have to fight they way out of whichever location they were on at that time. In this case the fight will probably be short and messy as both Acolytes and the Marine will try to disengage (after all, if the amrine suddenly spots them he does not know if they are alone and won't risk his mission).

The "worst-case" secnario is that they do not do their homework and realize how little chance they have against the marine and will try to take him on alone, unassisted. In which case they get exactly what they ordered.

Well, the squad is around Rank 3 and their currently available equipment is limited to stuff Adeptus Arbites squad has (personal equipment is along lines of mesh armor, flak cloaks, shotguns, laser pistols etc.)... Which does, incidentally, include some really nasty stuff like a fully pimped up Rhino, too.

So, no realistic hope of even scratching the CSM. Short of flattening him with a tank shock...maybe.

However, the "best-case" scenario from the Acolyte viewpoint is that they can find and identify the Traitor Marine and present the case to their Inquisitor with ample evidence.

At Lv 3 they need to make some good rolls, to detect/avoid detection by the CSM.

The "not-so-good-case" scenario is that they fumble up, get made and will have to fight they way out

The most likely scenario given the set up.

The "worst-case" secnario is that they will try to take him on alone, unassisted. In which case they get exactly what they ordered.

*Cough* Are there any NPC`s in the party? While I whole heartedly agree that players should bear responsibility for bad decisions, a subtle last minute call for sanity could be in order ( "Prime, are you sure about this?" ). TPK is rarely fun and I usually try to give my players a final warning.

Aajav-Khan said:

Rhinos pintle-mounted Stormbolter and assassins long-las with Hotshot shells might do more than scratch... As woul krak grenades if they ever got close enough to hit with one. But yeah, in stand-out fight they would be in deep ****.

Aajav-Khan said:

Finding the CSM isn't going to be too hard if they succeed in infiltrating deep enough into his cult... Getting away sane and having enough solid evidence to convince Inquisitor Vaarak that they've seen a real, honest-to-Emperor traitor marine.

Aajav-Khan said:

I do usually have a few "safeguards" like this in place, however, I usually use a bit different approach. As GM I am responsible for describing players what their characters see and what they know of things. Thus, I can affect their perception of the world around their characters in very concrete ways without introducing NPC element.

For example if they seem to be charging head first into CSM:s den I might throw a few dice, pick one player with suitable lore and tell him: "You remember several heroic stories about earlier engagements Imperial Troops have fought against Chaos Marines and in all of those stories the Imperial Troops had to face pretty hard times before reaching the inevitable victory... The only problem is that in those stories it was always Adeptus Astartes who finally brought down the Chaos Space Marine. You aren't quite sure if the acolytes on your left and right are quite ready for heroics fitting the venerated Adeptus Astartes."

Rhinos pintle-mounted Stormbolter and assassins long-las with Hotshot shells might do more than scratch... As woul krak grenades if they ever got close enough to hit with one. But yeah, in stand-out fight they would be in deep ****.

Judging by the way how you described the CSM tactics, the bad guy obviously is highly competetent ( as an Astartes should be ). The party will be in for tough times whatever their plan is. Oh, and regarding grenades. How "pious" are the PC;s ? Don´t be surprised if a character comes to the conclusion that: a) that is a REAL CSM!!, b) This Lasgun is NOT working, c) there is no way out! d) time for profit? I´ve lost count how many times I have witnessed a PC take the "blaze of glory"- option.

Finding the CSM isn't going to be too hard if they succeed in infiltrating deep enough into his cult... Getting away sane and having enough solid evidence to convince Inquisitor Vaarak that they've seen a real, honest-to-Emperor traitor marine.

What would constitute "solid evidence"? Although an Inquisitors probaply considers lv 3 Acolytes still to be a bit green, I don´t think he would just automatically dismiss their report as fantasy if all of them describe having seen a "giant warrior in a ornamental power armour wielding a bolter". Even the possibility of a CSM being in the area is a cause for drastic measures.

For example if they seem to be charging head first into CSM:s den I might throw a few dice, pick one player with suitable lore and tell him: "You remember several heroic stories.."

A good way of handling it .

Aajav-Khan said:

The Hive they are on is already in middle of a large-scale conflict against rebels and the ever since the rebels took over an Inquisitorial holding facility and let the inmates free the Inquisitorial Storm Troopers Varak brought with him have had their hands full. Now, if the Acolytes describe "a huge warrior in ornamental power armor wielding a bolter" Vaarak will conclude that they have seen (have talked to someone who has seen) just that, a huge warrior in power armor having a bolter. Could be a bad case, surely, but considering how extremely rare chaos marines are in universe of billions and billions of other bad things thats not quite enough to warrant rerouting troops from search of a dangerous demon host... However, if they can describe the visible implants or symbolism on the power armor with some detail, that is the kind of information Acolytes or their contacts can't make up on their own (as Vaarak is quite sure none of the Acolytes or their contacts have seen a live marine before). If they also describe how the forementioned warrior is teaching demonic rituals to local cultists... Well, you get the idea.