No, please.

Please.

definitely been mentioned before, but X-wing miniatures ain't a CCG like Destiny

you don't get to cycle out miniatures or, in X-wing's case, upgrade cards that are essential to the competitive functionality of said miniatures

a reboot would be merited, a cycle would not

2 minutes ago, ficklegreendice said:

a reboot would be merited, a cycle would not

A Clone Wars reboot!

I think it’s kinda funny that anytime a different game does a thing, everybody in X-Wing automatically assumes that doing that here would “fix the game”!

The Original Trilogy ships are the first three waves. If they get rotated, how will people ever look at the table and say “oh, that’s a Star Wars game!”???

I’m just assuming that this thread popped up again because of the Destiny rotation. Please, people. X-Wing is its own game. Randomly taking ideas from other games and sticking them onto X-Wing is not going to be some kind of magical band-aid that makes the game perfect.

4 hours ago, Kieransi said:

I think it’s kinda funny that anytime a different game does a thing, everybody in X-Wing automatically assumes that doing that here would “fix the game”!

The Original Trilogy ships are the first three waves. If they get rotated, how will people ever look at the table and say “oh, that’s a Star Wars game!”???

I’m just assuming that this thread popped up again because of the Destiny rotation. Please, people. X-Wing is its own game. Randomly taking ideas from other games and sticking them onto X-Wing is not going to be some kind of magical band-aid that makes the game perfect.

Well it came back because of more aggressive erratas in attempt to fixed the most broken thing FFG released when they were compensating for weird overpriced dials, lack of discarded secondary weapons, and 2 firepower. The problem is they put it all in one ship thus broke everything in the process.

So a new idea is not to rotate out this ships but just the pilot and upgrade cards. In turn all the ships in a wave (or two) will get all new pilot cards (to include the pilots released in repaint/huge ship packs) and all upgrade cards get replaced. So you will still have the pilots but they will all have different pilot abilities, upgrade slots, and even costs if needed.

But yeah I don't think Destiny with the random boosters is the "magic band-aid" that will fix this game. Nothing really is (and that includes all the Nerfratas). However it will give the development team more flexibility when correcting the game for meta balance.

How about a rotation for upgrade cards only, TLT probably needs to take a break hahaha. But maybe taking out two from each category, the most competive ones preferably to bring up interesting combos.

Turrets autoblaster/TLT

Missiles Cruise/Harpoon (too soon? Hahaha)

EPT Adaptability, Veteran Instincts

Crew Sabine, Dengar, Kylo Ren

Mods Advanced Slam, Engine Upgrade

Torpedos Plasma, Proton

Bombs Proximity, Bomblet

Droids Unhinged, R2

And maybe titles Punishing One? Hahaha

but change it each year

You could also say for upgrade cards only the most recent years waves and a rotating council of cards could be used each year

Lightning reflexes, shadow caster turret, sloop and poop, x-wing has plenty of rotation already.

On 9/26/2017 at 5:21 PM, Embir82 said:

No. Because in X-Wing you can play still play totally legal list utilizing ships and upgrades exclusively from 1-st wave. Just before holidays some dude played in polish tournament using Jake and Han list, and he went as far as elimination rounds. In MTG standard format it is impossible.

In a way in X-Wing there is rotation, "soft rotation" I would call it - and it is known as power creep.

I got gaming buddy who fanatically plays pauper format in MtG - it is ALL about constructing decks. This game is strategically deep but tactically "SHALLOW". More than once you end up with one card in hand doing completely nothing, because you have nothing to do. Side decks and mulligans in MtG are not without reason - because it is all about cards that you have, not how you play.
And this is where similiarities ends. Because in MtG constructing decks determines in about 90% if u will win or lose. It's tactics are simplified.
In X-Wing tactics are much more important. And this is the reason why X-Wing doesn't need rotation - because actual gameplay is much more important than in MtG.

That is why I dislike pauper as an mtg format.

Pauper feels to me very much as you describe; "I'll do my thing, you do yours - and whichever does it better wins."

However this is in stark contrast to every other mtg format I've played. Games are won or lost by the decisions you make during the game; decisions that are fluid and that often do not have a definitive answer.

It may be that you or your friend haven't played mtg at the level where such nuances are more easily apparent (much like a fighting game "button bashing" for want of a better analogy is possible in mtg and will get you a reasonable distance in the game) but I assure you as someone who has competed in a fair few major tournaments; those nuances are there and are essential for succeeding at the higher levels of play.

Of course the quality of deck you bring to the table matters, but to think that listbuilding isn't just as important in x-wing simply isn't true.

Take a bad list (there are plenty out there) and put as good of a player behind it as you like - they will struggle to beat a mediocre player with a top list, and I would gauge their success rate at 10% or lower in either game.

Either way, you cannot reduce mtg to a deckbuilding game any more than you could reduce x-wing to a listbuilding game.

On 9/25/2017 at 2:56 PM, Kumagoro said:

I say ban list, and a dynamic one at that. That's the main crux of FFG's awkwardness in dealing with an increasingly competitive game. You can't errata stuff as a solution to power creep or design mistakes or wrong readings of the meta. Because then you can't errata back, you can't errata the errata, it'd be even more awkward, and generally a mess (which is generally what they're doing).

A carefully curated ban list would give tournament players a constantly fresh, reasonably balanced meta; all the others could keep playing everything as published, but with the knowledge that if certain cards are problematic in tournament play, then everyone should tread carefully when employing them in casual play.

So, say, Palp is an issue in the current meta? Give him the ban. Then one year later, reevaluate. Don't "fix" cards based on the way they perform against each other in a given moment in time. If they're really broken, they'll just remain in the ban list permanently. Maybe someday you'll release a new version of the banned character, if that feels important for flavor reasons.

If you examine any of the announcements Wizards of the Cost releases every other month for M:TG (not all of them contain actual bans, and of course they have multiple formats to maintain), you'll find sentences like these:

(Plus of course they never enforce any dramatically altering ban right before a key moment in the tournament season).

All this is normal talk. They never come off as saying, "Oh my God, we made a mistake, we're so dumb! Sorry, guys!". It's pure evolution of a game, it's an inescapable process. This is the tone and philosophy a serious game publisher should adopt. Of course, WotC has an Organized Play department and a Rules department that are kept entirely separate from the R&D department, whereas I think FFG has designers doing the erratas and the evaluations of the meta, which is not what designers should be doing, like, at all.

Exactly. FFG should have an aggressive, dynamic ban list. Something could go on the list but come back off in the future. It provides a way to keep the game balanced and interesting without new printings and annoying errata. That way they don't have to shove new ships in our face too frequently and what's printed on a card is accurate. Errata is an awful way to manage things because new players don't know what their ships, pilots, and/or upgrades do.

FFG should have three formats: a format the includes all printings, a format that includes some number of waves and rotates out after a while, and epic. Let people vote with attendance. On top of that, have an aggressive, dynamic ban list to correct mistakes that sneak through the cracks. It will probably end up like Magic where Type 1 was more popular than Type 2 until most players realized the lower power level of the rotating format afforded more room for skill to determine the winner than the multitude of overpowered synergies present in the older format.

On 11/9/2017 at 8:25 PM, GILLIES291 said:

How about a rotation for upgrade cards only, TLT probably needs to take a break hahaha. But maybe taking out two from each category, the most competive ones preferably to bring up interesting combos.

Turrets autoblaster/TLT

Missiles Cruise/Harpoon (too soon? Hahaha)

EPT Adaptability, Veteran Instincts

Crew Sabine, Dengar, Kylo Ren

Mods Advanced Slam, Engine Upgrade

Torpedos Plasma, Proton

Bombs Proximity, Bomblet

Droids Unhinged, R2

And maybe titles Punishing One? Hahaha

but change it each year

On 11/9/2017 at 8:31 PM, GILLIES291 said:

You could also say for upgrade cards only the most recent years waves and a rotating council of cards could be used each year

Well the whole idea is to preserve the model format but keep accretion in check through the rotation. Now for Pilots they rotate but keep the same pilot name and ship name because that is also what is on the cardboard tile in the base. But you could still rotate out the card as needed.

As for upgrades by their very nature there are supposed to be more upgrade cards than pilot cards so a full cycle of rotations is what is best. Now that being said there are some upgrades that should be evergreen say like titles and ship restricted modifications (unless said upgrade card makes a ship OP) but again if an upgrade is need back so badly you could always add it back in the rotation with a wave update pack.

8 hours ago, AceWing said:

Exactly. FFG should have an aggressive, dynamic ban list. Something could go on the list but come back off in the future. It provides a way to keep the game balanced and interesting without new printings and annoying errata. That way they don't have to shove new ships in our face too frequently and what's printed on a card is accurate. Errata is an awful way to manage things because new players don't know what their ships, pilots, and/or upgrades do.

FFG should have three formats: a format the includes all printings, a format that includes some number of waves and rotates out after a while, and epic. Let people vote with attendance. On top of that, have an aggressive, dynamic ban list to correct mistakes that sneak through the cracks. It will probably end up like Magic where Type 1 was more popular than Type 2 until most players realized the lower power level of the rotating format afforded more room for skill to determine the winner than the multitude of overpowered synergies present in the older format.

Yeah, I've been saying this since the second nerf to the JM5K that caused collateral damage to a whole lot of upgrade cards.

Everyone ballyhooed that the game is never supposed to kill a component. Now we have a ton of components that don't work like they read, and the JM5K expac is a hilarious disaster. It would have been better to kill the JM5K and release a ship that worked like the original intent. The Slave II is an asymmetric ship, for example. And it could have looked exactly like the JM5K we have now. It would have been super easy to have a 4 ship wave that featured the JM5K's replacement to keep ship parity.

On ‎11‎/‎9‎/‎2017 at 2:15 PM, Kieransi said:

not going to be some kind of magical band-aid that makes the game perfect.

That's right. This is X-Wing.

You need a Force-using Band-Aid.

Haven’t read the whole thread but a saw merits and down falls to most ideas. I hope if they do reboot someday that they go a card pack route with pilots but not exclusively. The example being this:

You buy the core set, you get a couple ships and they are all generic pilots, the upgrades are set and the generics do nothing, no ept, no ability, but can have a ps anywhere from 2-5 so they aren’t completely worthless. You buy a model x-pac it contains said generics for appropriate ship and upgrade cards.

Then sell pilot boosters, either random (god please no) or set to at least a specific wave and those contain elite pilots for the ships. You use elite instead of generic for the card and boom you have bannable/rotatable aces for any ship and absolutely everything is “playable” out of box. You also create a viable secondary market and people have reasons to still purchase anything.

Dengar a problem? Ban him. Miranda too tough? Nerf her specifically. Biggs insane? Nerf. It is a system that accepts change a lot more easily. In x-wings current form though you will never see balance just shifted meta’s.

As Darth Meanie pointed out, the logistics of keeping every ship in print forever is implausible for both FFG and stores.

As more and more players have the old ships, the requirements for printing old ships will go down. At some point, it won't be worth their effort to continue making print runs of certain sizes. Printers will not take orders under a given quantity. If they over print, they're throwing money away.

Stores only have so much room. It's a miniature game so it inherently takes up more room than something like a board game or card game. They also would run into the problem of stocking ships with a declining demand for them. They'll be stuck with unsold product.

If this were a digital product, no problem. Bits don't take up physical space (not true, they just take up miniscule space). As is, constant expansion is unsustainable.

I know it’s not neccesarily the topic of this thread, but thinking about pilot packs makes me want to back up an idea that people have said in other threads before - when the game reboots (whether that’s five years from now or twenty), I would like the pilots to be separate from the ships, so that good pilots can be put on any ship (kind of like the modification upgrade). Perhaps pilots could be limited - Wedge Antilles and Hera Syndulla can fly just about anything, but maybe Backstabber just isn’t good enough to fly any TIE other than a Fighter or a Bomber. But I’d really have liked this to happen so that the iconic pilots always stay relevant.

11 minutes ago, Kieransi said:

I know it’s not neccesarily the topic of this thread, but thinking about pilot packs makes me want to back up an idea that people have said in other threads before - when the game reboots (whether that’s five years from now or twenty), I would like the pilots to be separate from the ships, so that good pilots can be put on any ship (kind of like the modification upgrade). Perhaps pilots could be limited - Wedge Antilles and Hera Syndulla can fly just about anything, but maybe Backstabber just isn’t good enough to fly any TIE other than a Fighter or a Bomber. But I’d really have liked this to happen so that the iconic pilots always stay relevant.

Isn't that what wrecked Attack Wing (among others)?

It adds one more balance issue. Plus, it seems to me like fighter pilots would be rated for a limited number of ships, so it wouldn't be all that "realistic."

In 3 movies, you never saw Wedge in anything other than an X-Wing. More or less the same for Luke. I mean, I really don't have anything against pilots in different ships, but I think it should be handled just like Sabine is currently (which, actually, a lot of people complain about).

That's a pretty cool idea and another potential way to balance mechanics. Maybe certain ships require certain pilot skill so now the designers can make certain chassis high enough pointwise with certain unique pilots that otherwise-breakable combinations are too expensive to break the game with.

1 minute ago, Darth Meanie said:

Isn't that what wrecked Attack Wing (among others)?

It adds one more balance issue. Plus, it seems to me like fighter pilots would be rated for a limited number of ships, so it wouldn't be all that "realistic."

In 3 movies, you never saw Wedge in anything other than an X-Wing. More or less the same for Luke. I mean, I really don't have anything against pilots in different ships, but I think it should be handled just like Sabine is currently (which, actually, a lot of people complain about).

I think, if design makes chassis more expensive in general, his idea actually limits balance issues and creates more depth.

It would require ships to have “classes”, such as Interceptor, Fighter, Bomber, Freighter, etc. and then pilots would say which classes they can fly.

The problem with not doing this is that otherwise there’s just not enough pilots for each ship (except the X-Wing and TIE Fighter, which are sadly horribly underpowered). This way we could actually see Wedge Antilles and Luke Skywalker in this game without having to create all new pilot cards or try to “fix” the X-Wing. Game balance between all the ships becomes a little less important to people because they can just take the pilots they know and love and stick them on the new ship.

But it would only work in a 2.0 game. For now, I just want FFG to do more Sabine-ing (like you said, Meanie).

50 minutes ago, Kieransi said:

It would require ships to have “classes”, such as Interceptor, Fighter, Bomber, Freighter, etc. and then pilots would say which classes they can fly.

The problem with not doing this is that otherwise there’s just not enough pilots for each ship (except the X-Wing and TIE Fighter, which are sadly horribly underpowered). This way we could actually see Wedge Antilles and Luke Skywalker in this game without having to create all new pilot cards or try to “fix” the X-Wing. Game balance between all the ships becomes a little less important to people because they can just take the pilots they know and love and stick them on the new ship.

But it would only work in a 2.0 game. For now, I just want FFG to do more Sabine-ing (like you said, Meanie).

I guess I have always looked at that as a way to make new packs "needful." We're gonna do a repaint, so here are some new pilots to entice you.

The problem is that some ships are obviously left in the dust (Y-Wing!!!) or may not be included because of the notion of 4-pilot packaging (the Fang being a notable exception).

For me, the big complaint isn't "I want this pilot here!" but "Where the **** is Ben Kenobi?" And Pops, Seventh Sister, Fourth Brother, yadda yadda yadda.

If packs got 1 chassis card and 4 pilot cards, nothing really changes. I still can't put Pops anywhere.

And to get back to OP, a rotation might encourage rereleases of not broken ships with new pilots.

I could totally and completely understand and get behind updates/card rotations that don't involve having to buy the mi iatures again. That's the problem with the idea here, I think. An update once a year or two that rotates out ships temporarily and updates their cards and cardboard actually sounds totally ok.

I will say, on the World's stream, that Alex Davy seemed to be quite positive on the change of Netrunner from the Most Wanted List to a more traditional Banned/Restricted list.

Here's hoping he keeps that in mind for X-wing.

On 11/9/2017 at 0:15 PM, Kieransi said:

The Original Trilogy ships are the first three waves. If they get rotated, how will people ever look at the table and say “oh, that’s a Star Wars game!”???

Not agreeing or disagreeing with the general idea, but the OT and most iconic legends ships (ghost, yt-2400.... Scum could have a problem here) could easily be the basis for the core set of non-rotating models/upgrades.

On 11/9/2017 at 0:15 PM, Kieransi said:

I think it’s kinda funny that anytime a different game does a thing, everybody in X-Wing automatically assumes that doing that here would “fix the game”!

The Original Trilogy ships are the first three waves. If they get rotated, how will people ever look at the table and say “oh, that’s a Star Wars game!”???

I’m just assuming that this thread popped up again because of the Destiny rotation. Please, people. X-Wing is its own game. Randomly taking ideas from other games and sticking them onto X-Wing is not going to be some kind of magical band-aid that makes the game perfect.

1 hour ago, Gadgetron said:

Not agreeing or disagreeing with the general idea, but the OT and most iconic legends ships (ghost, yt-2400.... Scum could have a problem here) could easily be the basis for the core set of non-rotating models/upgrades.

Well the whole idea is the models stay but the cards rotate out. So you can get a 20 point Rookie pilot, a Grey Squadron Pilot with an EPT, a Biggs that only protects Luke, and a Fel's Wrath that doesn't suck.

Now of course this does make for some other complications because it keeps the "Waves" and the New ships so unless you start including reprinting earlier ships the older ships will become harder to find for newer players. But the idea is that for those that already have the older ships they don't have to get another ship to update their pilots, just a card pack of their chosen wave and faction and then everything is updated for them.