1 minute ago, GreenDragoon said:

Doesn't netlisting have a similar effect in that it impairs a player's improvement of understanding about different combinations and entire lists?

IMO, quite the contrary.

First of all, netlists, if you understand your list expose you to advanced combinations you might not have discovered yourself. Speaking for myself here, I would never have come up with Dengaroo or Parattani. I had already dismissed Zuckuss as pretty bad compared to 4LOM and didn't see Attani Mindlink as very useful either, due to Stress (I grew up with Soontir )

Secondly, it helps focus your improvement efforts. After you lose, you don't need to ask yourself 'was it my flying or is my list bad?' You know for sure your list is good.

10 minutes ago, Sarcon said:

Did you ever see a Formula 1 racer win a race with a car that he built himself?

Wait...if the Formula 1 teams don't build the cars, who does?

9 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

Doesn't netlisting have a similar effect in that it impairs a player's improvement of understanding about different combinations and entire lists?

Yes and no. If the player is just grabbing stuff off the web and not bothering to understand it, than yes. But, when properly done, it can open up your eyes to what combos do work. You can pick and pick at the list till you understand why it is good and go about using that knowledge to improve your skills list building skills.

Also, when evaluating one's skills, removing variables is desireable. Trying out a proven list is a good way to gauge your own flying skills because you already have a known quantity. Heck, even finding out you're just rubbish with that style of play is a valuable lesson to learn.

Finally, something I've been thinking for a bit now that @Sarcon pointed out is that flying a list and building a list are different skills. I personally am no master of either, but I've had enough successes in both that I don't feel discouraged (though more so in flying). And I do feel being able to use lists not based off of my limited skills has helped both my flying and list building on top of giving me ways to fly ships I love.

3 minutes ago, LordBlades said:

IMO, quite the contrary.

First of all, netlists, if you understand your list expose you to advanced combinations you might not have discovered yourself. Speaking for myself here, I would never have come up with Dengaroo or Parattani. I had already dismissed Zuckuss as pretty bad compared to 4LOM and didn't see Attani Mindlink as very useful either, due to Stress (I grew up with Soontir )

Secondly, it helps focus your improvement efforts. After you lose, you don't need to ask yourself 'was it my flying or is my list bad?' You know for sure your list is good.

I think it would really help if we defined exactly what we meant by "netlisting", because it sounds like people are speaking at cross-purposes here.

Most of the defenders seem to be taking "netlisting" to mean simply seeing lists online and trying them out to get ideas, which seems a perfectly sensible practice (no different, really, from someone at your local game store suggesting an idea to you).

Most of the anti-netlisters, though, seem to mean something more by it. From what they describe, I gather they mean someone who expects to field a great list without having to put in any effort to learn. This sounds like a thoroughly unreasonable expectation to me.

I'm not saying either usage is right or wrong, but we need to at least try to understand how others mean the term so that we can avoid moving the goalposts or attacking straw men.

2 minutes ago, JJ48 said:

Most of the defenders seem to be taking "netlisting" to mean simply seeing lists online and trying them out to get ideas , which seems a perfectly sensible practice (no different, really, from someone at your local game store suggesting an idea to you).

I would never call that netlisting, as long as the extent of "trying them out" is limited to non-tournament games.

7 minutes ago, LordBlades said:

IMO, quite the contrary.

If those two points are your reasons then I don't understand how they support it to be contrary. The first one is not exclusive to netlisters - I take it as a given that all the non-netlisters here are still aware of such discoveries, so that's not a difference. And the second has nothing to do with my point - which was that the ability to build lists improves your ability to understand lists.

8 minutes ago, SabineKey said:

Yes and no. If the player is just grabbing stuff off the web and not bothering to understand it, than yes. But, when properly done, it can open up your eyes to what combos do work. You can pick and pick at the list till you understand why it is good and go about using that knowledge to improve your skills list building skills.

For the lists you netlisted, yes. That's not what I'm talking about. Hopefully everybody playing competitively takes a look at the most common lists and tries to understand them.

My point is that limiting yourself to netlisting helps you less to improve your understanding of the various parts. That seems like a nobrainer to me - someone spending time looking at all cards will understand them more than someone who doesn't. Someone spending time thinking about and reading up on combos will learn more about them than someone who doesn't. So listbuilding will improve your flying because it improves your understanding of your enemy. And that's a key skill in any competitive game.

Just now, JJ48 said:

I think it would really help if we defined exactly what we meant by "netlisting", because it sounds like people are speaking at cross-purposes here.

That's why I asked people to go back and read my original post in the thread. I don't hate net-listing. I think there are valid reasons to do it, and I think it can be helpful to a player's development. In fact, I'll go so far as to say I think it's usually useful to a player's development.

We should fly what we want regardless of whether we made it or found it on list juggler. If everybody is having fun, who cares? If your enjoyment of this game is diminished because of netlisting this may not be the game for you.

26 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

For the lists you netlisted, yes. That's not what I'm talking about. Hopefully everybody playing competitively takes a look at the most common lists and tries to understand them.

My point is that limiting yourself to netlisting helps you less to improve your understanding of the various parts. That seems like a nobrainer to me - someone spending time looking at all cards will understand them more than someone who doesn't. Someone spending time thinking about and reading up on combos will learn more about them than someone who doesn't. So listbuilding will improve your flying because it improves your understanding of your enemy. And that's a key skill in any competitive game.

You are discounting other learning types. Some people learn better by doing rather than reading, myself included. You can tell some people how good Mindlink is, but they won't really understand until they've done it themselves.

I think we have a miscommunication on what the "flying" skill entails. It's not just knowing the affect of cards and combos, but also the physical movement of the ships, turn by turn risk assessment, and reworking tactics as necessary. Knowing what all your cards do and all of what your opponent's cards do is great, but if you lack the knowledge or instincts of how far a two turn will take you can make that knowledge less valuable if you keep landing on rocks or flying off the edge. You can know exactly how the mind linked torp boats with the agromech is suppose to work, but if you can't keep people in arc, and you are running into things and so on, that knowledge won't really save you.

Those who netlist and think you are silly not to when playing competitively are more worried about being competitive than they are about being creative.

Those who don't netlist and think netlisting is boring/unfair are more worried about being creative than competitive.

Im sure there is at least a few in the middle, who hate themselves for doing well with a netlist, or deeply regret not doing so when they do poorly without one.

4 hours ago, kris40k said:

There's a lot of good posts here, but I'm quoting this one because it reminded me of something.

@Boom Owl mentions that people need to be more open about their expectations, because he's not a telepath, and you mention that communication is key to this, and I 100% agree with both of you there. Communication is key. However it doesn't take telepathy to realize unspoken social contracts, just social skills, both of which may be considered superpowers to those in the wargaming community and why communication is lacking. As a parent to a couple kids on the spectrum, I understand that some people have very hard times picking up on social cues compared to others, so we can't always expect the unspoken to be realized by the person across the table from us. The side-eye that @Jeff Wilder mentions when someone plops down Dengar and Nym on the table may go unnoticed, or noticed and not understood why, and later on they find out that no one likes to play against them.

But if anything, we can't affect what our opponents do or say, we can only affect what we do or say, so the onus of open communication lies on ourselves. Getting to know your local players better and talking about the game will help avoid situations where you didn't know that everyone was avoiding playing certain ships and you are breaking any unspoken rules. Like myself, its an unspoken rule at my local shop that no one runs Kylo Ren (crew). This kinda sucks because the Decimator is my favorite ship in the game and the reason why I started playing X-Wing, and RAClo is an effective ship these days, however I avoid running it. There is no stone tablet mounted on the wall saying, "Thou Shall Not Show Your Neighbor the Dark Side," but other than a few appearances upon release, everyone kind of picked up that no one was having fun playing against the card. Its never been said, and if you did come to the shop for a store kit and plop it down, people will play against you, but you might notice a wrinkled nose or two here or there. Once someone becomes more involved in the local community, they will likely pick up or be informed of the more informal rules.

Thanks for keeping some nuance in the discussion here. The situation with your local casual night is why before every game I play in a casual setting I have learned that its necessary to ask opponents that I dont know well something like the following:

"Are you ok with the list that I am using? Is this going to be a hard counter to what you brought? Do you want me to change anything about it?"

This is particularly important since I am new but not completely incompetent and people dont always say whats on their mind. Helps clear the air on unspoken group decisions like the ones you describe here which have typically evolved over many months or years of playing together. If they say no, I assume they want the challenge and the practice. If they say yes I probe a little bit on why and I almost always change up my list in some subtle ways to accommodate them.

Final point and then I am out....MANY.....local casual metas are going to need to discuss this topic openly before the Kylo Silencer drops to avoid falling victim to the much feared telepathic side-eye, wrinkled noses, and behind the back smack talk. That ship is going to see a ton of play regardless of netlisting or whatever unspoken social contract people currently have about ISTDs. Kylo Ren is soon to be even more a part of the bedrock of the Imperial faction.

29 minutes ago, Kdubb said:

Those who netlist and think you are silly not to when playing competitively are more worried about being competitive than they are about being creative.

Those who don't netlist and think netlisting is boring/unfair are more worried about being creative than competitive.

Im sure there is at least a few in the middle, who hate themselves for doing well with a netlist, or deeply regret not doing so when they do poorly without one.

I agree with you that a lot of us are in the middle, because I am as well. However, you should also keep in mind that not everything needs to be judged based on winning and losing, and it doesn’t always need to be

Fun List = bad, loses games, I feel good because it’s mine, I feel bad because I lose.

Meta List = good, wins games, I feel bad because it’s not mine, I feel good because I win.

My enjoyment of the game is not at all linked to whether I win or lose, and I like all my lists to be built by me, so I guess I should be called an “anti-netlister”, but if I hear that a list is doing well, I have been known to fly it, so I guess I’m a “netlister” as well.

If I hear “Dengar/Nym is OP” I might check it out by pulling out those pilot cards and then going through my binder and picking upgrades to put on them. But I won’t just go find someone else’s list and fly it without tweaking anything. That feels wrong to me. And usually, if I fly the meta, it’s as a thought experiment (I haven’t been to a tournament in over a year).

So long story short, I have no problem with net listing, but I feel that a person is depriving themselves of one of the best parts of X-Wing if that person doesn’t even experiment with trading out any of the upgrades or finding their own method for flying it.

Also, if all you really care about is winning, it’s important to know that there’s no shame in netlisting, but that a netlisted squad will often lose to a non-meta handmade squad, because it’s hard to know what you’re doing with a list you didn’t design!

I have one and only one objection to netlisting- it often limits diversity. I like to look at lists online to get inspiration, but thereafter it's into my binder-o-ships'n'upgrades to use that inspiration to fuel combos of my own.

I find it boring and tedious to play game after game against the same two or three list archetypes. Of course, it's not all about me, so I should probably either get over it or play something else. (I wonder if this has impacted my recent exploration of Imperial Assault's campaign...?)

3 hours ago, Blake7689 said:

We should fly what we want regardless of whether we made it or found it on list juggler. If everybody is having fun, who cares? If your enjoyment of this game is diminished because of netlisting this may not be the game for you.

i forgot in the rules where it says "make a list with pilots and upgrades of your choice, then play 30 games against dengaroo. once you properly understand the game, play dengaroo".

if you are too lazy to make youre own list, maybe this game isnt for you?

45 minutes ago, Vontoothskie said:

i forgot in the rules where it says "make a list with pilots and upgrades of your choice, then play 30 games against dengaroo. once you properly understand the game, play dengaroo".

if you are too lazy to make youre own list, maybe this game isnt for you?

I bet this post sounded a lot better in your head.

50 minutes ago, Vontoothskie said:

i forgot in the rules where it says "make a list with pilots and upgrades of your choice, then play 30 games against dengaroo. once you properly understand the game, play dengaroo".

if you are too lazy to make youre own list, maybe this game isnt for you?

All the best ideas are ones stolen from people much smarter than me. So if I fly a list that an insanely good player came up with because it's an amazing list and a blast to fly, please don't complain. Besides, Dengaroo got FAQ'd and is no longer relevant. If you're going to complain at least complain about NymGar or your agency.

On 25.9.2017 at 3:48 AM, Polaritie said:

What bothers me is someone bringing top-tier lists into the local weekly stuff where most people are brewing.

I can either bring a list that was fun to assemble and probably lose before rocks to the top tier stuff (and have enjoyable games on the rest), or be able to compete with the top tier and have no fun the rest of the time.

Especially right now, since with a lull in any major tournaments it's the perfect time to bring out the crazy. I'm more forgiving of going serious mode when store champs are running (and a lot of the people there were playing stronger lists for those months for practice), but there's so much more room for building if you go to tier 2/3 lists.

Then again, I fall strongly into the Johnny end of the spectrum (for those familiar with MtG player archetypes).

You are aware that you can just bring TWO lists to your weekly games? ;-)
There is no exclusive or between one and the other.

5 minutes ago, TheMinions said:

All the best ideas are ones stolen from people much smarter than me. So if I fly a list that an insanely good player came up with because it's an amazing list and a blast to fly, please don't complain. Besides, Dengaroo got FAQ'd and is no longer relevant. If you're going to complain at least complain about NymGar or your agency.

But it was relevant. When triple Jumps were a thing, it was clear to everyone that they were definitively better than every other list, both mathematically and in practice (what with the dial and all). The same was true for Dengaroo, then Paratanni, then Dengar/Nym and now Fair Ship Rebels too. If your opponent is not flying a hyper competitive list (not necessarily a netlist, but nowhere near casual either) then they will not have a fun game. You will stomp them good (except if you are a new player, in which case netlist away), and they will not learn anything from it since you won before setup and you both know it.

5 minutes ago, SEApocalypse said:

You are aware that you can just bring TWO lists to your weekly games? ;-)
There is no exclusive or between one and the other.

Really? When did they change tournament rules to allow that?

1 minute ago, Polaritie said:

Really? When did they change tournament rules to allow that?

Weekly games. As in not tournament games.

6 minutes ago, Astech said:

But it was relevant. When triple Jumps were a thing, it was clear to everyone that they were definitively better than every other list, both mathematically and in practice (what with the dial and all). The same was true for Dengaroo, then Paratanni, then Dengar/Nym and now Fair Ship Rebels too. If your opponent is not flying a hyper competitive list (not necessarily a netlist, but nowhere near casual either) then they will not have a fun game. You will stomp them good (except if you are a new player, in which case netlist away), and they will not learn anything from it since you won before setup and you both know it.

This is where bringing two lists and a little bit of communication with your fellow players comes in handy. You meet someone who wants a more relaxed game, you bring out the more relaxed list. If you're after a more competitive game, you find someone else who is and play with them. Simples.

15 minutes ago, Astech said:

(except if you are a new player, in which case netlist away), and they will not learn anything from it since you won before setup and you both know it.

If you are not a new player your lists will be at least tier 2 anyway. You will not always hit tier 1, but you should not miss it by far, which means that your list are for the most part netlist variants anyway.
Which means basically that the real problem is with the players who intentionally build **** lists and complain afterwards AND players who intentionally stomp newbies.

Nothing wrong with bringing a **** list intentionally for games with newbies, but you can always bring at least one good list to gamenight as well. It's not black magic, anyone can build great lists and even if that would not be the case, anyone can at least look some strong lists up as netlists are just a few clicks away.

Now if you just don't like to play the current meta lists because you think don't suit your game style (welcome to my world) then you should complain about the meta (please don't, we have so many of THOSE topics) instead about netlists.

10 minutes ago, Polaritie said:

Really? When did they change tournament rules to allow that?

77 plus format ;-)

19 hours ago, SabineKey said:

Also, when evaluating one's skills, removing variables is desireable. Trying out a proven list is a good way to gauge your own flying skills because you already have a known quantity. Heck, even finding out you're just rubbish with that style of play is a valuable lesson to learn.

On top it will give you understanding of weaknesses from lists which you never would have build yourself, because you usually build around your own playstyle. So basically netlisting can bring you out of your comfort zone and help you to understand the game from a different perspective as well.

The main reason imho that new players should not focus on one list but fly a lot of different stuff initially to get a feeling for all the ships instead of just their chosen favorite. At least if they are serious about training and competitive play. For casual naturally pure fun is king.

20 hours ago, Boom Owl said:

Final point and then I am out....MANY.....local casual metas are going to need to discuss this topic openly before the Kylo Silencer drops to avoid falling victim to the much feared telepathic side-eye, wrinkled noses, and behind the back smack talk. That ship is going to see a ton of play regardless of netlisting or whatever unspoken social contract people currently have about ISTDs. Kylo Ren is soon to be even more a part of the bedrock of the Imperial faction.

Little off topic, but yeah, I've been considering the Kylo Ren (crew) card, and to a lesser extent the new Silencer, and I'm starting to think/be wary that a good deal of the future of the Empire faction is going to be shaped by that card, a lot like how the Rebel faction is shaped by the presence of Biggs. Any future upgrades/pilots/etc. that can be used by the Empire that affect the ability to cause criticals or when assigning pilot skill will need to be balanced around the idea that someone possibly has Kylo Ren on the board.

"Sure the pilot skill is little low, or can't use VI because no EPT, but that's ok, the player can just throw out a Damaged Cockpit or two", " Sure this Rebel/Scum ship hits like a truck, but it will lose two attacks against an Imperial list; that balances out, right?"

/shrug. I dunno, maybe, maybe not. I know they didn't want Palpatine defining Imperial lists, hence the nerf; I'm not sure if they want the same thing to happen with Kylo Ren. Kind of funny that the Dark Side users for the Empire seem to be very effective and relevant to the game compared to Luke Skywalker, Kyle Katarn, etc. Vader's crew, not so much, but he's still a relevant pilot.

On Tuesday, September 26, 2017 at 3:58 PM, GreenDragoon said:

Someone spending time thinking about and reading up on combos will learn more about them than someone who doesn't.

You realize, of course, that netlisting is *specifically* reading up on combos, right?

17 minutes ago, E Chu Ta said:

You realize, of course, that netlisting is *specifically* reading up on combos, right?

One combo. And the way netlisting was mostly used in this thread means that they more trust the wide success than try to understand all the options