Come on really? 2 2-cost ambush weapons and you get free ambushes for the entire time she's alive?

2 minutes ago, JeffIncredible said:

Come on really? 2 2-cost ambush weapons and you get free ambushes for the entire time she's alive?

Yes...

-Not difficult at all to make.

-Abuse ambush concept even more with Rey

-Create loop until errata with running interference

That is Sabine/Rey in a nuts

Ya Sabine shows yet again how poor FFG games are playtested. The fact that they are going to once again make an errata to stop a loop after they have already done the same before with other cards (meaning we are fully aware it is NOT their intention to allow this to happen), is comical.

The simplest fix is just change the word "play" to "move" and there is no more free ambush.

4 hours ago, JeffIncredible said:

The simplest fix is just change the word "play" to "move" and there is no more free ambush.

Yeah, this is really how it should have been in the first place.

'Before you activate this character, you may move a weapon from your discard pile onto her by paying its cost. Decrease the cost by 1 if it has the word "Thermal" in its title.'

None of this is broken.

Running Interference isn't broken.

Ambush/ Action Cheating isn't broken.

Is it annoying? You bet. But as more and more cards come out and players find ways to win with different deck styles it will all settle down.

I remember Jango was the beast....

36 minutes ago, Rogue 4 said:

None of this is broken.

Running Interference isn't broken.

Ambush/ Action Cheating isn't broken.

Is it annoying? You bet. But as more and more cards come out and players find ways to win with different deck styles it will all settle down.

I remember Jango was the beast....

True, my friend plays a very strong sabine deck, but cannot quite make the 50% win vs tier 1.

I'd like however a unique symbol added on interference to prevent lock, wich is not necessary tier 1, but annoying enough to make some player quit.

Chak

1 hour ago, Rogue 4 said:

I remember Jango was the beast....

People will still be spouting this off for all eternity. "No, the sun going supernova won't be so bad, you're just overreacting. Remember Jango?"

The best thing about that one time the community got something wrong is you never have to actually argue any points again ever.

I haven't seen Sabine played that much, but at this stage I'm okay with the Ambush cheating. Why? Because she costs 15/20 points. It's a powerful ability, but it's one a character who costs 2/3s of your points total to run Elite and severely limits your options for a partner, or you run as single dice and get less benefit from it.

Now I get that some people plain don't like the concept, and that's fine. But if it's going to exist, I'm happy that it's not on a 9/12 point character that goes with pretty much everything.

Still, I think we're entering territory where the game is ripe for a hard counter to Ambush. A zero-cost support that reads "After your opponent plays a card with the Ambush keyword, you may exhaust this support to strip that card of its keywords." Or something.

This combo is not nearly as bad as the Hyperloop was. Once that was set it was either claim the battlefield and let your opponent do massive damage or they just end the round and start over. There are a few ways out of this new combo like using a Backup Muscle, pinging a Nightsister to reroll an opponent's die, using Aerial Superiority to move a shield. It is for sure annoying but the Hyperloop was way worse.

I still think there will be a fix for this. Maybe not letting you stack both Running Interference is one turn, or just making the action list bigger. For example if I play an upgrade with Running Interference it makes it so my opponent can't play an upgrade but they can still play an event or support. if I roll a character it makes it so they can't roll a character but they can still roll a support. This will be fixes at some point I'm sure.

5 hours ago, Buhallin said:

People will still be spouting this off for all eternity. "No, the sun going supernova won't be so bad, you're just overreacting. Remember Jango?"

The best thing about that one time the community got something wrong is you never have to actually argue any points again ever.

Perhaps Jango is a reasonable comparison, if I get my two Ambush Weapons, what about Sabine is significantly different to Jango and how many points am I spending for that? Why is Sabine here on the list but not Cad Bane?

How often has this community complained about a card and called for a banning or errata to that card? I think we are 1 for 8 so far and counting. Hyperloop being the one, FN, Maz, Rey, Poe, Sabine, Force Speed and Sith Holocron being the 7 misses.

At some point you have to start building decks and playing games that try to win against these decks rather than getting the cards banned or changed.

5 minutes ago, IceWarm said:

I still think there will be a fix for this.

There is and you listed a few, if Sabine becomes a problem in your meta, game the meta and include one or more of the cards that break the lock.

and yet sabine is one of the characters that has a strong chance against the cancer commonly known as Thrawn/Unkar. maybe we should stop running to the cry nerf territory and start finding ways to deal with the issues. like what logical thinking minds accomplish

sabine decks are tough but they are still very susceptible to thrawn unkar, just like most decks.. believe me, sabine is not something you need to really be that concerned about. is she tough? you bet, is she beatable? definitely. My sabine deck failed to thrawnkar on turn 3.. TURN 3!! to a thrawnkar, turn 1 he managed to lay down a crime lord, turn 2 sabine is dead and i failed to kill unkar by 3 hp. now the game is over but i play it out anyways.. turn 3 my secondary is dead.

i honestly don't know what deck could have stood up to that. I now run "fair trade" to try and deal with that, but there is no guaruntee it will even work as thrawn will probably remove it from hand first anyways and i have to land the resource side on a die, plus have it in my hand

5 hours ago, executor said:

and yet sabine is one of the characters that has a strong chance against the cancer commonly known as Thrawn/Unkar. maybe we should stop running to the cry nerf territory and start finding ways to deal with the issues. like what logical thinking minds accomplish

sabine decks are tough but they are still very susceptible to thrawn unkar, just like most decks.. believe me, sabine is not something you need to really be that concerned about. is she tough? you bet, is she beatable? definitely. My sabine deck failed to thrawnkar on turn 3.. TURN 3!! to a thrawnkar, turn 1 he managed to lay down a crime lord, turn 2 sabine is dead and i failed to kill unkar by 3 hp. now the game is over but i play it out anyways.. turn 3 my secondary is dead.

i honestly don't know what deck could have stood up to that. I now run "fair trade" to try and deal with that, but there is no guaruntee it will even work as thrawn will probably remove it from hand first anyways and i have to land the resource side on a die, plus have it in my hand

... or look for the 3 disrupt side on sabine...

Chak

I for one enjoy the idea that Heroes have a potential tier 1 deck other than Poe/Maz. Running Interference should probably still change to avoid the potential NPE, but I don't want Sabine herself to change. Let heroes have something good for once!

So if I play a weapon with ambush on Sabine, does the ambush happen before or after I activate Sabine?

So do I:

1) Play my weapon with ambush on Sabine, use the ambush to do another action and then activate Sabine?

2) Play my weapon with ambush on Sabine, activate here (thus rolling in dice) and then do another action (possibly resolving things I just rolled in)?

Thanks!

30 minutes ago, mjhan300 said:

So if I play a weapon with ambush on Sabine, does the ambush happen before or after I activate Sabine?

So do I:

1) Play my weapon with ambush on Sabine, use the ambush to do another action and then activate Sabine?

2) Play my weapon with ambush on Sabine, activate here (thus rolling in dice) and then do another action (possibly resolving things I just rolled in)?

Thanks!

2) is correct. Whenever you gain an action, be it via ambush, or some other effect, it always goes at the end of the queue. So you have to resolve all other triggers before doing your additional action.

13 hours ago, Amanal said:

How often has this community complained about a card and called for a banning or errata to that card? I think we are 1 for 8 so far and counting. Hyperloop being the one, FN, Maz, Rey, Poe, Sabine, Force Speed and Sith Holocron being the 7 misses.

Your list is rather blatantly skewed. Force Speed and Holocron are both problem cards which will finally be reined in by Rend, but fixing them via a late-release card is still fixing them. Poe/Maz has already been targeted in the first errata, and many people are still expecting another. Same with FN. You also leave off Second Chance/Ammo Belt, which got errata.

So by my count they've actually fixed or limited 6 of the 9 things on your list, 1 is invalid (including Sabine as something the community "got wrong" when there has been zero chance to errata her at all is deceptive), and pretty much the rest of them we'll see whenever we get our next FAQ release. I'm not expecting to see a fix for Rey, because for some unknown reason they seem to think being able to let your opponent take a coffee break in the middle of the game is a good idea, but if we at least get the expected FN release we're going to be at 8 of 9.

So... yeah.

Recursion is always dangerous and Lukas himself says he tries to avoid it (not hard enough obviously) because recursion can lead to loops. Sabine does a fine job of doing just that. I am surprised no one is upset about her and the DL-44.

However Sabine isn't stupid cheap like FN, so is she really a problem with other cards that are so much worse? If she were one of those stupid cost 9/12 characters she would break the game but with her current cost, outside the few that are in love with a cartoon character, I am not sure she see much play. Other than her ability, only 11 health for 15 pts and only 2 damage sides, although good ones. She is a better IG-88 but how much better? Good'O 88 doesn't see play.

She is gimmicky to down right obnoxious but is she tournament winning? I think we still have an FN problem.

My point remains regardless, there are a good number of cards that people have spent great amounts of energies calling for bans or Errata. So far there have been two cards that people have complained about that have been changed.

Why is Sabine/Running Interference being considered for this list? If Rend has fixed Holocron and Force Speed then surely that logic means you wouldn't see Sabine as a problem as there are cards that avoid the lockout effect.

10 minutes ago, Amanal said:

My point remains regardless, there are a good number of cards that people have spent great amounts of energies calling for bans or Errata. So far there have been two cards that people have complained about that have been changed.

All your declarations were wrong (and are still wrong even now, is 3 really so hard to count to?) but your point still remains. Sure. Whatever.

11 minutes ago, Amanal said:

Why is Sabine/Running Interference being considered for this list? If Rend has fixed Holocron and Force Speed then surely that logic means you wouldn't see Sabine as a problem as there are cards that avoid the lockout effect.

So you don't take the resultant effect into account at all? Every possible card, combo, and interaction is equally corrected so long as one element of it is targetable by Rend? Here's my idea for a new support: Superlaser, Cost 0, "Exhaust this support. You win the game." Perfectly fine because logic means you wouldn't see it as a problem, right?

Just in case the sarcasm was too complex, let's try the obvious, 2-seconds-of-consideration answer: The lockout stops you from playing Rend.

8 hours ago, Buhallin said:

So you don't take the resultant effect into account at all? Every possible card, combo, and interaction is equally corrected so long as one element of it is targetable by Rend? Here's my idea for a new support: Superlaser, Cost 0, "Exhaust this support. You win the game." Perfectly fine because logic means you wouldn't see it as a problem, right?

You made that claim that Rend fixed Holocron and Force Speed, I had them on my list of cards that were considered broken and hadn't been fixed. I asked if you are OK with that then why is Sabine a problem as there are several cards that can avoid the lock down. Why is that an unreasonable question?

The Sabine/Lock is not a zero cost thing, you require 2 Ambush Weapons and a damage effect that triggers when she activates as well as getting Running Interference out and quite likely have to win the roll off as to play your battlefield. If after spending 2-3 turns doing everything you can to get the lock down if I can avoid it for 1 or 2 turns I am not so sure you will have made a winning play.

1 hour ago, Amanal said:

You made that claim that Rend fixed Holocron and Force Speed, I had them on my list of cards that were considered broken and hadn't been fixed. I asked if you are OK with that then why is Sabine a problem as there are several cards that can avoid the lock down. Why is that an unreasonable question?

I'm honestly pretty sure you're trolling at this point, and if you're not then you really aren't up for discussing these things, but sure, let's cover the basics.

First, I never said it fixed them - I said it reined them in. Both are still stupidly good cards which shouldn't have been printed, but the mere existence of Rend will at least make them far less reliable to build around. Holocron is a card that can provide stupidly good economic efficiency. Force Speed provides free, reliable, and repetitive action chaining which is otherwise available only via events with hefty requirements (such as Tactical Mastery). Both are far above the standard power curve, but neither is inherently game-breaking. Rend provides a very strong meta counter - it's universally available and there are enough targets for it that it will be ubiquitous. This will put a serious crimp in those cards.

So what's the difference? I'm astonished that anyone needs it spelled out for them because it's so obvious. First is the impact. Both are advantages, but not solely game-winning. Second is the reliability - they both have multiple sides to do their thing, but still require the roll to hit. Third is the timing - I can draw a counter after the target has been in play for a bit and get rid of it at that point.

The Running Interference lockdown is none of these things. It is pretty much a guaranteed game win if it comes together. It has no randomness once it is set up, and does what it does each and every round. And if you don't get - and hold - the Rend beforehand, it won't matter, because you can't play it when you do get it.

Are there other ways to stop it? Sure. Play one of the 4 characters who can deal with it, or one of the 3 upgrades (and hope you draw them before the lock gets set up). There's a few good, and a lot of bad, upgrades that will do it too. How many do you include to ensure you draw one? Is the community really going to be forced into playing something like Air Superiority because of this?

So that's the difference: level of impact, quality of counters, possible timing of counters. If you want to think the RI lockdown is fine, that's up to you. But if you consider it equal to Holocron in a "Community wanted it changed and it didn't happen so they were wrong" way, you have no business analyzing anything in this game.

Guys....you do realize Sabine's lock is just a combo deck ? And thats all.
Combo decks are in MtG since forever, with the same pattern - try to assemble a combo then its GG you can't do anything. Why all that rage?

On the one side we used to cry - weee destiny is so 1 dimentional, all dmg no funny decks, and then when we got first true combo deck you all cry its broken. Come on..if you see Sabine just mulligan for Rend or anything with action that can break the combo and your good.

The combo isn't that easy to break. Cheat neutralizes Rend. Infamous or swiftness can let them play Rend or Sabotage themselves to ambush in removal of your solution to the problem (i.e. Hunker Down; Drop Zone; etc) and force the lock all in the same turn window. So, you really need two solutions in play to be safe. The combo is dumb and consistent enough to be a detriment to the game.

Regardless of RI, it's Sabines ability that I hate. Recurrent ambush for free that basically makes her a consistent, no cost, action cheating character. Destiny really needs a 'put into play' mechanic for this kind of recursion and action cheating stuff. The game shouldn't come down to the handful of characters that get to roll and resolve all in the same action window.