Ok, X-wing fix time! Use tracking tokens as ‘plot armour’, with number of tokens equal to PS. These tokens can be spent like focus or shield tokens. Of course only X-wings (the real ones, T-65s, not those fancy pants sequel ones) so this does help the rebs, but come on, it’s the X-wing!

So, what do you guys say? Oh? Biggs would be even crazier? Well, don’t give him any plot armour! He didn’t have any in the movie anyway!

Yeah, this topic is pretty dumb, but maybe it will give someone an idea and start the ball rolling on how to truely diversify the more competitive lists.

Tracking tokens? I nominate challenge coins and store championship plaques.

(Seriously, though, for a thematic game, a "fate point" mechanism for a named pilot can be kind of cool -- spend one to get a boost or barrel roll or extra action to prevent losing that last hull point.)

Ostensibly this is what pilot abilities are supposed to be (Luke's being a classic example). Unfortunately many of the early ones were not very good since the designers did not account for the efficiency of swarms over named pilots. This gave rise to much better passive attack and defense upgrades from wave 4 onward (predator, expertise, autothrusters etc.) which has swung the game in the opposite direction towards 'ace-wing'.

The game design was warped starting with the core set (Biggs' pilot ability, R2-D2, ordnance being useless, and the ridiculous efficiency of TIE's) and a lot of the design history of the game has been trying to correct those things. Now the over all power curve has gone up so much since about wave 6 or so that new ships need to be pushing the curve or be rendered DOA (U-wing anyone?).

16 hours ago, GrimmyV said:

Ok, X-wing fix time! Use tracking tokens as ‘plot armour’, with number of tokens equal to PS. These tokens can be spent like focus or shield tokens. Of course only X-wings (the real ones, T-65s, not those fancy pants sequel ones) so this does help the rebs, but come on, it’s the X-wing!

So, what do you guys say? Oh? Biggs would be even crazier? Well, don’t give him any plot armour! He didn’t have any in the movie anyway!

Yeah, this topic is pretty dumb, but maybe it will give someone an idea and start the ball rolling on how to truely diversify the more competitive lists.

Problem is because of da force those tokens would be infinite.

It would be an interesting thing if named pilots had some kind of passive ability (reroll a blank or something) but in turn make them more expensive and generics even cheaper. Balance would obviously be a pain, but da force apparently plays favorites, so.

11 minutes ago, Warlon said:

but da force apparently plays favorites, so.

See TPM, ANH, and especially TFA.

2 hours ago, GrimmyV said:

See TPM, ANH, and especially TFA.

The force doesn't like old wise mentors?

3 minutes ago, RufusDaMan said:

The force doesn't like old wise mentors?

Sure it does, that’s why they all die and become force ghosts

32 minutes ago, GrimmyV said:

Sure it does, that’s why they all die and become force ghosts

The star wars universe really bugs me with that.

Like, how is life for the average person/soldier? Since apparently all outstanding people are somehow force sensitive, so what is a common rebel/stormtrooper to do in the universe? Is he/she just doomed to die because the Force decided to focus it's attention on Mister Vader Is My Father?

53 minutes ago, Warlon said:

The star wars universe really bugs me with that.

Like, how is life for the average person/soldier? Since apparently all outstanding people are somehow force sensitive, so what is a common rebel/stormtrooper to do in the universe? Is he/she just doomed to die because the Force decided to focus it's attention on Mister Vader Is My Father?

Everyone becomes one with the force. Just that the folks strong in the force can retain their ‘person-hood’ and come back to guide others. Usually people lose their individuality on dying. No idea if the reincarnate.

36 minutes ago, GrimmyV said:

Everyone becomes one with the force. Just that the folks strong in the force can retain their ‘person-hood’ and come back to guide others. Usually people lose their individuality on dying. No idea if the reincarnate.

I see.

I more mean in terms of skill and what not. Like, if all it takes is "da force" (as Rey demonstrated in TFA) to best someone in combat or escaping 2 highly trained Fighter pilots, then what's the point of skill and training when you can just "trust in the force" or ramble about the force over and over and win?

Most pilots who are extremely talented have some degree of force sensitivity, (Luke, wedge, han solo, Vader, Leia, etc) so while I'm fine with the Force aiding their abilities to make them aces, I have a problem for the average Joe's who went through that exact same training and are equally skilled but because they're not force sensitive they might just die from a lucky shot from an enemy, whereas Luke will escape because OHHHHH DA FORCE GUIDES ME AND PROTECTS ME.

It's extremely nitpicky, I know, but imo the Force is just lazy writing and should have just been something Jedi and Sith can use like magic.

4 minutes ago, Warlon said:

I see.

I more mean in terms of skill and what not. Like, if all it takes is "da force" (as Rey demonstrated in TFA) to best someone in combat or escaping 2 highly trained Fighter pilots, then what's the point of skill and training when you can just "trust in the force" or ramble about the force over and over and win?

Most pilots who are extremely talented have some degree of force sensitivity, (Luke, wedge, han solo, Vader, Leia, etc) so while I'm fine with the Force aiding their abilities to make them aces, I have a problem for the average Joe's who went through that exact same training and are equally skilled but because they're not force sensitive they might just die from a lucky shot from an enemy, whereas Luke will escape because OHHHHH DA FORCE GUIDES ME AND PROTECTS ME.

It's extremely nitpicky, I know, but imo the Force is just lazy writing and should have just been something Jedi and Sith can use like magic.

Lancelot was invincible in combat thanks to divine protection. I’m sure there are other precedents found through literature, even dating back to Herakles or Samson.

The Force is just another name for divine power, Providence, destiny, and stuff.

1 hour ago, GrimmyV said:

Lancelot was invincible in combat thanks to divine protection. I’m sure there are other precedents found through literature, even dating back to Herakles or Samson.

The Force is just another name for divine power, Providence, destiny, and stuff.

But in all of your examples, most of the story revolved around that divine protection (even tales of King Arthur, his "legend" could be read as a religious propaganda)..

Star Wars does not explain anything short of "it binds all things" and "microscopic, intelligent life forms that originated from the foundation of life in the center of the galaxy"...

4 hours ago, Warlon said:

I have a problem for the average Joe's who went through that exact same training and are equally skilled but because they're not force sensitive they might just die from a lucky shot from an enemy, whereas Luke will escape because OHHHHH DA FORCE GUIDES ME AND PROTECTS ME.

It's extremely nitpicky, I know, but imo the Force is just lazy writing and should have just been something Jedi and Sith can use like magic.

I suggest you avoid most Greek myths, then, because there is all kinds of nepotism going on.

I would hate it if the Jedi were spellcasters. This is supposed to be Sci-fi IMHO, not the Myar vs the Balrog.

2 hours ago, Darth Meanie said:

I suggest you avoid most Greek myths, then, because there is all kinds of nepotism going on.

I would hate it if the Jedi were spellcasters. This is supposed to be Sci-fi IMHO, not the Myar vs the Balrog.

I mean, in any story you are inevitably going to encounter plot armor, I write books myself and I realized my main character survived A LOT of things he probably shouldn't have.

But I don't make it to where it's some mystical force showing favoritism because whoopdy friggin doo, it's skills and experience that he has acquired through the years of battles and study.

In Star Wars your skill and experience means jack s***, because Rey-ima-shoot-yo-face whispered the magic words and, oh would you look at that, she overpowered you simply because da force decided to make her dice rolls really good. Too bad, better luck next ti-oh wait, you're dead because da force didn't feel like honoring your skill and experience, instead opting to show favoritism because screw training montages, skip dat s*** and go straight to the action, baby.

It's kinda like in Munchkin when you're about to beat that potted plant and suddenly it grows 30 levels and spawns an acid spewing clone because some mystical force decided to play it's trump cards.

12 hours ago, Warlon said:

Problem is because of da force those tokens would be infinite.

Unlimited Tokens!

@WarlonI would say that by the time the Galactic Civil War is going on, the amount of Force-users in the galaxy is so minuscule compared to the amount of non-Force-users, that most of the time the average Joe will not feel aggravated by their unfair abilities. Vader, the Emperor, and Luke cannot be everywhere.

You could compare this with The Lord Of The Rings. Sauron, Gandalf, Saruman, etc are more powerful than any other man, elf and orc, but they cannot be everywhere and they cannot win wars by themselves.

It is normal that stories are told about them because they are the most exceptional individuals in the Galaxy. But Palpatine couldn't have won the clone wars without an army of clones, none of which were Force sensitive. And the Empire couldn't have had such a grip on the Galaxy without a huge army of average Joes.

Also, if we consider all of those that have some affinity to the Force but aren't Force-users, you could also look at the subject in a different way: what if everybody have some affinity with the Force, and inherent talent is the way this is shown? There have always been people more talented than others, that with much less effort could achieve things that others couldn't even after years of training. (For example, Mozart and Salieri, if you have watched that Amadeus movie)
Some could find that also unfair, because destiny, genetics, luck, or whatever has given people some abilities that other will not be able to match even if they work hard to get them.

9 hours ago, Warlon said:

Since apparently all outstanding people are somehow force sensitive, so what is a common rebel/stormtrooper to do in the universe? Is he/she just doomed to die because the Force decided to focus it's attention on Mister Vader Is My Father?

Pretty much.

At the same time, whilst Force Sensitives are super-duper-awesome +1 because the story says so, some people are just that awesome because determination and native skill - and the fact that some of them can outclass force sensitives (usually within specific fields, but still) helps underline how awesome they are - Tarkin and Thrawn as commanders, Fenn Rau and Soontir Fel as pilots, etc, etc - note that, for example, Kylo Ren is only the second force sensitive character in the game to be PS9.

7 hours ago, GrimmyV said:

The Force is just another name for divine power, Providence, destiny, and stuff.

Or, indeed, 'Plot Armour'. I liken it to Terry Pratchett's Discworld - the Galaxy Far, Far Away is fully aware it's a story and will occasionally mandate exceptions to physics, logic, and rational believability in the name of plot expediency.

Compare, for example, the archetypical deflect-blaster-bolts jedi ability with another mystical sci-fi universe (Warhammer 40,000) - in Ravenor, a psyker pulls off much the same trick - parrying a number of shots out of the air. Her opponent's response is an impressed nod, and the question "how do you do on full auto?"*

* Answer: not well enough.

46 minutes ago, Magnus Grendel said:

Compare, for example, the archetypical deflect-blaster-bolts jedi ability with another mystical sci-fi universe (Warhammer 40,000) - in Ravenor, a psyker pulls off much the same trick - parrying a number of shots out of the air. Her opponent's response is an impressed nod, and the question "how do you do on full auto?"*

Pretty sure Chirrut could block full auto fire. With a stick.

But I guess there’s a difference between ‘force sensative’ and having the Force be ‘strong’ with someone, or the Force influencing a person’s actions without their knowledge.

im glad the EU was dropped tho because KJA invented a ‘force paddle’, basically a PKE meter that measure the amount of ‘Force’ on a person. When Wedge was tested it showed ZERO. Not just zero, ZERO. Yeah, KJA truely was ****.

1 hour ago, GrimmyV said:

But I guess there’s a difference between ‘force sensative’ and having the Force be ‘strong’ with someone, or the Force influencing a person’s actions without their knowledge.

im glad the EU was dropped tho because KJA invented a ‘force paddle’, basically a PKE meter that measure the amount of ‘Force’ on a person. When Wedge was tested it showed ZERO. Not just zero, ZERO. Yeah, KJA truely was ****.

Indeed. Because things like that undermine the basic "it's omnipresent and mysterious" concept, just like the whole midichlorians 'jedi blood test' idea. If you're going to go the other way and do a 'not visible in the force' analogue to a 40k Pariah or Elenium's "the man without a destiny", fair enough, but that drifts rather too close to what they ended up pulling out as a gimmick for the Vong, and is definitely not the point of Wedge; he's not a jedi, he's just that good.

5 hours ago, Azrapse said:

@WarlonI would say that by the time the Galactic Civil War is going on, the amount of Force-users in the galaxy is so minuscule compared to the amount of non-Force-users, that most of the time the average Joe will not feel aggravated by their unfair abilities. Vader, the Emperor, and Luke cannot be everywhere.

You could compare this with The Lord Of The Rings. Sauron, Gandalf, Saruman, etc are more powerful than any other man, elf and orc, but they cannot be everywhere and they cannot win wars by themselves.

It is normal that stories are told about them because they are the most exceptional individuals in the Galaxy. But Palpatine couldn't have won the clone wars without an army of clones, none of which were Force sensitive. And the Empire couldn't have had such a grip on the Galaxy without a huge army of average Joes.

Also, if we consider all of those that have some affinity to the Force but aren't Force-users, you could also look at the subject in a different way: what if everybody have some affinity with the Force, and inherent talent is the way this is shown? There have always been people more talented than others, that with much less effort could achieve things that others couldn't even after years of training. (For example, Mozart and Salieri, if you have watched that Amadeus movie)
Some could find that also unfair, because destiny, genetics, luck, or whatever has given people some abilities that other will not be able to match even if they work hard to get them.

That sounds reasonable.

Like I said, it's mostly me just nit-picking XD

My issue isn't just with the force though, it's also plot armor in general; not necessarily being invincible (I mean, not every show should be GoT killing every main character all the time) but with characters always getting away unscathed. I would love if a show had it to where every few missions, because there are missions in real life that go without a hitch, one of the characters gets injured, maybe not life threatening, but enough to put them out of action for an episode or two. Now obviously this would be difficult to put in a show due to contracts and everything, but it would make the story and characters more...relatable...I guess?

That's actually one of my issues with Superman (plus a few other things but those don't have anything to do with the topic) back when he was first thought up invincible super heroes were the norm, as far as I can tell, but every super hero needs some kind of weakness in order to give them tense moments, cause who wants to watch Superman beat up common street thugs without any consequence to his health? They just decided to make his a special rock that only the extremely lucky or extremely rich and evil could get their hands on, good luck with robbing that convenience store, thugs! Unless you got some kryptorocks Superman will be here any second, so you might as well stop being bad guys.

4 hours ago, Odanan said:

Is it just me, or is the wording weird on this one? Seems like, if on am X-Wing, it'll only trigger if you take 3 or more damage from one attack.

How about "when you would be destroyed, discard all damage cards assigned to you, and then receive a number of face down damage cards equal to your hull value-1."

That way there is no confusion over triggering times or crit cards, direct hits, etc.

19 hours ago, Warlon said:

I see.

I more mean in terms of skill and what not. Like, if all it takes is "da force" (as Rey demonstrated in TFA) to best someone in combat or escaping 2 highly trained Fighter pilots, then what's the point of skill and training when you can just "trust in the force" or ramble about the force over and over and win?

Most pilots who are extremely talented have some degree of force sensitivity, (Luke, wedge, han solo, Vader, Leia, etc) so while I'm fine with the Force aiding their abilities to make them aces, I have a problem for the average Joe's who went through that exact same training and are equally skilled but because they're not force sensitive they might just die from a lucky shot from an enemy, whereas Luke will escape because OHHHHH DA FORCE GUIDES ME AND PROTECTS ME.

It's extremely nitpicky, I know, but imo the Force is just lazy writing and should have just been something Jedi and Sith can use like magic.

Where do we learn that Wedge and Han have Force sensitivity? O_o

19 hours ago, Warlon said:

I see.

I more mean in terms of skill and what not. Like, if all it takes is "da force" (as Rey demonstrated in TFA) to best someone in combat or escaping 2 highly trained Fighter pilots, then what's the point of skill and training when you can just "trust in the force" or ramble about the force over and over and win?

Most pilots who are extremely talented have some degree of force sensitivity, (Luke, wedge, han solo, Vader, Leia, etc) so while I'm fine with the Force aiding their abilities to make them aces, I have a problem for the average Joe's who went through that exact same training and are equally skilled but because they're not force sensitive they might just die from a lucky shot from an enemy, whereas Luke will escape because OHHHHH DA FORCE GUIDES ME AND PROTECTS ME.

It's extremely nitpicky, I know, but imo the Force is just lazy writing and should have just been something Jedi and Sith can use like magic.

I hate to break it to you, but the Force literally is magic. And SW was never a scifi show, it's a science fantasy.

And I do agree that putting magic in scifi is lazy writing in a way, but it does have it's charm.