I'm looking at flying an imperial swarm list, somewhere between 4 and 6 ships that I can ideally fly as 2 groups, and I'm looking for some advice on some good 15-25 point ships. Between me and my friend I have access to 1 of everything, and 2 or 3 of the bombers, aggressors, TIE fighters and /fo's. There are dozens of set ups I can see with TIE fighters and /fo's, but if you have a particularly strong build, please post it!These are so far what I'm looking at (In descending order of PS):

Scarif Defender (18)

• Lightweight Frame (2)
• Adaptive Ailerons (0)

Total: (20)

Scimitar Squadron Pilot (16)

• Lightweight Frame (2)
• Unguided Rockets (2)

Total: (20)

Scimitar Squadron Pilot (16)

• TIE Shuttle (0)
• Intelligence Agent (1)
• Fleet Officer or Operations Specialist (3)

Total: (20)

Scimitar Squadron Pilot (16)

• Guidance Chips (0)
• Cruise Missiles (3)
• XX-23 S-Thread Tracers (1)

Total: (20)

Sienar Specialist (17)

• Guidance Chips (0)
• Cruise Missiles (3)

Total: (20)

Sienar Test Pilot (16)

• Autothrusters (2)
• TIE/v1 (1)
• XX-23 S-Thread Tracers (1)

Total: (20)

Cutlass Squadron Pilot (21)

• Lightweight Frame (2)
• Unguided Rockets (2)

Total: (25)

Cutlass Squadron Pilot (21)

• Bomblet Generator (3)
• Enhanced Scopes or Trajectory Simulator* (1)

Total: (25)

Tempest Squadron Pilot (21)

• Guidance Chips (0)
• TIE/x1 (0)
• Cruise Missiles (3)
• Advanced Targeting Computer (1)

Total: (25)

Alpha Squadron Pilot (18)

• Autothrusters (2)

Total: (20)

I would run some combination of these, with filler TIE Fighters or /fo's as needed. I'm not sure which of the crew is statistically more focus tokens for the TIE shuttle bomber, but I'm leaning towards Operations Specialist because it's not an action and doesn't give the ship stress. Trajectory Simulator shows up in my squad builder app, but it looks like it comes from the resistance bomber which isn't out yet. It looks interesting if by "may launch the bombs instead of dropping them" they mean you can shoot it forward with the 5 straight maneuver template.

Does anyone have any advice for what makes a strong swarm list? Should I focus on being maneuverable, throwing 15+ attack dice each turn, being able to stack tokens and be as tanky as possible? Is there much merit to trying to have higher PS (4 ish) to beat other swarms, or is the increased cost not worth the returns in most match ups?

As for TIE fighter and /fo builds, what are some strong options for upgrades? Stealth device seems too expensive, only the 4+s have EPTs, and none can equip auto thrusters. Is Deadeye and Sensor Cluster strong for an /fo? It seems powerful to me, but I've been told that crackshot is really the only EPT they put on swarm lists. Do they just not expect many to live long enough to get off more than 1 shot, and that makes Crackshot stronger than Deadeye?

Some random thoughts.

13 hours ago, Jimbawa said:

Tempest Squadron Pilot (21)

• Guidance Chips (0)
• TIE/x1 (0)
• Cruise Missiles (3)
• Advanced Targeting Computer (1)

On the generic Advanced Accuracy Corrector is very potent. You probably know ATC does not give your Cruise Missiles an additional crit - that can only be added to a primary weapon attack. Also being a low PS they can struggle to get that target lock on the right target.

3 hours ago, Jimbawa said:

TIE fighter and /fo builds, what are some strong options for upgrades? Stealth device seems too expensive, only the 4+s have EPTs, and none can equip auto thrusters. Is Deadeye and Sensor Cluster strong for an /fo? It seems powerful to me, but I've been told that crackshot is really the only EPT they put on swarm lists. Do they just not expect many to live long enough to get off more than 1 shot, and that makes Crackshot stronger than Deadeye?

Forget Deadeye - that only helps if you have a weapon that needs a target lock as you can then use a focus instead. The PS3 and PS1 TIE Fighters should not have any upgrades on them. The Black Squadron Pilot gives you the Elite Talent slot. Crack Shot is very popular giving TIE Fighters a bit of extra punch but personally I prefer Snap Shot backed up by an Operations Specialist. Lots of missed shots trigger extra focus tokens. I’ve also been toying with Juke TIEs backed up by Howlrunner but yet to run it.

The usual strength of a swarm is flying them in formation. This can be very difficult with ships of different types. As you don’t have many multiples of ships you might want to try

Swarm (99)

Black Squadron Pilot (16) - TIE Fighter
Snap Shot (2)

Black Squadron Pilot (16) - TIE Fighter
Snap Shot (2)

Black Squadron Pilot (16) - TIE Fighter
Snap Shot (2)

Gamma Squadron Veteran (26) - TIE Bomber
Snap Shot (2), TIE Shuttle (0), Lightweight Frame (2), Operations Specialist (3)

•"Pure Sabacc" (25) - TIE Striker
Veteran Instincts (1), Adaptive Ailerons (0), Lightweight Frame (2)

Fly the Fighters and Bombers in formation and then use Pure Sabacc as a flanker.

By far the most fun looking one I’ve seen is five alphas with autothrusters. You could drop one of those for a bomber with the Shuttle title and buffing crew like fleet/systems officer. I’ve also seen five bombers with Shuttle titles and various crew combinations. Basically swarms are easier to manage if the6 all share the same pilot skill.

I really like the idea of Pure Sabacc as a flanker and have run him before and am used to the striker's fancy flying.

I'm confused why Deadeye and Sensor cluster wouldn't be a strong set up for the Omega Squadron Pilot. Medium PS to go before other swarm lists, but low enough to block meta ships. You can focus and use it as an evade if you blank on a defense roll, focus it for either more evades or hits on a mediocre roll or use it as a target lock reroll for your attack if you totally whiff. Seems like it covers all your bases.

6 minutes ago, Estarriol said:

By far the most fun looking one I’ve seen is five alphas with autothrusters. You could drop one of those for a bomber with the Shuttle title and buffing crew like fleet/systems officer. I’ve also seen five bombers with Shuttle titles and various crew combinations. Basically swarms are easier to manage if the6 all share the same pilot skill.

Do you know what different crew you would run on those bombers? It also looks like there's a lot of good options while staying at the same pilot skill. Should I definitely try to stick with that while learning the list?

2 minutes ago, Jimbawa said:

I'm confused why Deadeye and Sensor cluster

Deadeye only works if you have a secondary weapon with Attack (Target Lock) requirement...

You may treat the "ATTACK (TARGET LOCK):" header as '"ATTACK (FOCUS):".

When an attack instructs you to spend a target lock, you may spend a focus token instead.

The TIE/FO cannot equip a Missile/Torpedo/Cannon etc that has this requirement so is a complete waste of points! You’d never use the upgrade.

Sensor Cluster is useful on its own but has no synergy with Deadeye on the FO...

When defending, you may spend a focus token to change 1 of your blank results to an evade result.

It was my understanding and the conclusion reached on the rules page that deadeye can be triggered by any instruction to spend a target lock during an attack. The list for what qualifies is in the FAQ, and includes spending a token as part of a secondary weapon's cost, using a pilot ability, or using a target lock to modify dice. The heading clause is separate from the spending clause and may be used independently, again as evidenced in the rules thread.

3 minutes ago, Jimbawa said:

It was my understanding and the conclusion reached on the rules page that deadeye can be triggered by any instruction to spend a target lock during an attack. The list for what qualifies is in the FAQ, and includes spending a token as part of a secondary weapon's cost, using a pilot ability, or using a target lock to modify dice. The heading clause is separate from the spending clause and may be used independently, again as evidenced in the rules thread.

Hang on are you think of Targetting Synchroniser?

When a friendly ship at Range 1-2 is attacking a ship you have locked, the friendly ship treats the 'ATTACK (TARGET LOCK):' header as 'ATTACK:'. If a game effect instructs that ship to spend a target lock, it may spend your target lock instead.

Nope, although that was also covered in the recent discussion. I'm aware the wording applies to both. Quick edit, the clauses in TS are linked and only apply during a friendly ship's attack, where as Deadeye's aren't.

Just now, Jimbawa said:

Nope, although that was also covered in the recent discussion. I'm aware the wording applies to both.

As far as I am aware Deadeye only applies to cards with the header Attack (Target Lock). Sensor Cluster does not have that header. If you’d explain how the interaction would work maybe I’d understand

We talked about it here: https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/259205-deadeye-headaches/ and I'll gladly keep posting there if you'd like to ask more questions, but basically "an attack" for deadeye is anytime during the 10 step attack timing flowchart, and all opportunities to spend a token for a weapon activation cost, pilot ability or reroll during the modify dice step are an instruction to spend that token during the attack.

Back on the topic at hand, would something like omicron group pilots fly well enough to be an effective large base swarm? Something like running 4 of them with mangler cannons?

On ‎24‎/‎09‎/‎2017 at 5:39 AM, Jimbawa said:

Does anyone have any advice for what makes a strong swarm list? Should I focus on being maneuverable, throwing 15+ attack dice each turn, being able to stack tokens and be as tanky as possible? Is there much merit to trying to have higher PS (4 ish) to beat other swarms, or is the increased cost not worth the returns in most match ups?

• The key tools a swarm has are raw firepower and blocking.
• Massed 2- and 3- dice attacks with 'just focus tokens' is actually pretty good. 5 Strikers or Interceptors, or 8 TIE fighters can turn a Scurrg or Decimator into hamburger at medium range in a couple of turns.
• Blocking is better than it was - TIE/x7 and Attani Mindlink made it all but useless, but people's unholy obsession with veteran instincts and the correction of TIE/x7 to mean you can't claim it if you collide means most things you actually see are vulnerable to being blocked.
• TIE swarms are especially brutal at close range - 3-4 TIE fighters at range 3 are an irritation to a T-70 ace (2 red dice versus 3 green dice with autothrusters is a bad joke) whilst the same at range 1 is a T-70 going home in a bucket (3 red dice versus 2 green dice four times is on a par with a full 100 point squad of heavy fighters).
• You will never make a swarm component ship 'tough' - the swarm concept you want is 'tough enough' , which I generally define as meaning "taking multiple attacks or the expenditure of one-use tricks like missiles, crack shot, etc to take down". 4 Hit points behind 3 green dice is generally enough for this - with 2-ship squads of stupidly expensive aces and large ships being 'the in thing', forcing an opponent to 'waste' a second shot to get a kill is a big deal.
• The issue you have is that you're always losing - that is; you can expect to take the odd point of damage here and there continuously, especially if you end up in a stern chase of a big ship with a turret. Your 'punch' is continuously eroded and there comes a point where you no longer have enough concentrated firepower to be a credible threat - if you're down to 2 TIE fighters or one generic TIE/in or TIE/sk you've probably already lost, it's just taking you a while to die.
• By comparison, your opening punch is a good place to upgrade - it capitalises on the advantages of a swarm; hoping to blow away something big and tasty before the game starts going your opponent's way.
• PS is a trap. Swarms are rare enough that in a swarm versus swarm you'll regret not jumping to PS4, but in 99.9% of games you'll be facing a squad comprised of other named pilots and you'll be looking at PS5+ opponents. In that situation, anything above PS1 is a waste (or whatever your base PS is); because buying up PS is expensive for a swarm - because you buy it once for every ship in your squad , whilst a solitary expensive ace only buys a PS increase once meaning the same points investment buys a much higher PS. Besides which, lower PS is nice for a swarm because you want to move first to block opponents and deny them actions.
• The only reason to buy expensive swarmers is because you have a cheap-ish generic with an elite upgrade - Black Squadron, for example, is the archetypical 'elite swarmer' because that 2 points gives you a slot to equip Crack Shot, not because they're PS4.

Swarms:

• 6-8 ships with 2-dice attacks.
• No matter how elite your pilots (and Ace TIE fighter and TIE/fo pilots are really, really good) be very hesitant about dropping to 5 ships or below because ultimately whatever special rules you have you're still flying TIE fighters and you lack raw firepower and hit points.
• Black Squadron Pilots with Crack Shot or Snap Shot do most of your heavy lifting.
• Mauler Mithel and Scourge are absolutely brutal with Snap Shot, delivering a 3-dice snap shot (and potentially following it with a 4-dice range 1 primary for a 7-dice hail of fire from a sub-20 point ship!)
• Be careful of Fenn Rau; that guy can soak as many range 1 shots as a swarm cares to throw at him (concord dawn, pilot ability) and ditto at range 3 (autothrusters, range defence bonus). Present him with a 2-range deep 'thicket' of TIE fighters to try and block him with the front ones and present a decent number of range 2 attacks is the best thing I can suggest.
• Don't hesitate to evade with standard TIE fighters if your only shot is going to be a 'pointless' shot (Fenn Rau at range 1, Soontir Fel at range 3, etc) - that evade token will help preserve your extra warm body until it gets a shot that's actually going to be useful.
• The 'industry standard' crack shot swarm is:
  • Howlrunner (Crack Shot), 3 x Black Squadron (Crack Shot), 3 x Academy Pilot
  • This gives you the opening Crack Shot/Reroll Barrage, but gets you 1 pilot more than a pure 'crackswarm', useful for blocking (especially when facing other crackswarms) and one extra attack for the mid-game
• My personal favourite swarm is:
  • Youngster (Rage), 7 x Academy Pilot
  • This gives you 8 ships - the most possible of any squad in the game - all save 1 at the same PS allowing you to chop and change movement order as needed, and with a stress-heavy 'pop-on-demand' focus/target lock analogue. Rage is something to throw in when you've got a range 1 shot on a blocked target, or a ship that's going to die this turn or is about to be stressed out of every getting actions again anyway, not something for general use. 8 ships is a really threatening board presences, especially since Youngster works at range 1-3 so you can come in in a loose net that's much harder to avoid than people are used to with TIE swarms, and Rage (being an action) is 'locked in' at the activation phase and can't be taken away if Youngster gets splashed by some PS25 super-ace punting a cruise missile into his face.
• I'd quite like to try a snap shot swarm:
  • Mauler Mithel (Snap Shot), 5 x Black Squadron Pilot (Snap Shot)
  • I fear that with most opponents being turreted ships who run away, it may not do that well these days.

Heavy Swarmers:

• 5 Ships with 3-dice attacks deliver amazing punch. There are 3 imperials capable of this:
  • Scarif Defender/Ailerons/Frame
  • Alpha Squadron/Autothrusters
  • Scimitar Squadron/Rockets/Frame
• I can't speak for the Alphas in person, but they have done well - winning events, even.
• Scarif Defenders are also good - I have plenty of experience with them and they're a joy to fly. They probably wouldn't complement Interceptors in a squad - being rather similar.
• Scimitars I have no experience with. I don't think they're great for a squad by themselves, because their dial and catastrophic dependence on focus tokens to work effectively makes them vulnerable to being forced to actually dogfight rather than just roll slowly forwards blowing stuff to dust bunnies, but I imagine 2 of them would drop well into a striker or interceptor heavy swarm, giving you an 'anvil' that will actually take some killing and can engage an opponent at range 3 with no real problems.

Ordnance in Swarms and Heavy swarms:

• Missiles look like a great way to add some teeth. They are, but they have three problems:
  • Getting a target lock on an opponent with a higher PS in an initial engagement is hard, and if you mess it up, you're stuck with your (generally 2-dice) primary weapon.
  • Target Lock mean you're stuck with unmodified green dice, increasing the risk of getting killed before you ever get your missile shot off.
  • Once the missiles are gone, that ship tend to end up a useless lump of plastic.
• XX-23 S-Thread Tracers are a godsend in this situation:
  • They require a focus token, meaning you can keep a defensive token you can spend to protect yourself if you attract too much attention.
  • They work at range 1-3, not 2-3 like normal missiles, which combined with your requirement of only a focus token means it's easy to get a shot with them
  • They provide a target lock to the rest of your squad - even if you're not in a range 1 'block' (which unless you're using Howlrunner you shouldn't be as it makes avoiding obstacles and bombs far harder) the permissive range 1-2 should cover pretty much all of the engagement zone.
• XX-23 S-Thread Tracers do not work well with TIE/v1 on a generic:
  • Yes, you get a target lock and this gives you an evade token. But receiving an evade token at PS2 means next to nothing because everyone else has already shot at that point, and once the TIE Advanced Prototype's missile tube is empty, the dratted thing can go die in a fire for all the impact it's really likely to have on the game.
• The Scimitar with Guidance Chips/Thread Tracers/Attack Missile is a whole 'nother animal - an acceptably tough brute that your opponent can't afford to ignore.
  • Yes, cruise missiles are the obvious one - a 4-dice attack with unconstrained manoeuvres or a 5-dice in a straight attack run. The former is much better than the latter because your opponent will generally see the latter coming, and because pulling a straight 4 and still ending up not at range 1 of a target is a lot harder than it sounds.
  • Actually more deadly (though for less obvious reasons) are Ion Pulse Missiles. They only do 1 damage, but the point is not just that the target is ionised, but that the target is ionised even if it's a big ship , and more importantly the target is ionised in front of a TIE swarm . See the comment about close-ranged firepower; if a 5-6 ship TIE swarm is close enough to get to range 1 and knows exactly where you're going to end your manoeuvre next turn, you're going home in a bin bag and I don't care what ship and upgrade cards we're talking about.

Super-heavy/Elite Swarmers (4 Ships)

• 4 ships gives you a lot more room for upgrades, but you still need to be frugal.
• You're competing with 4 x Blue Squadron Novices, 4 x Scurrgs, 4 x B-wings, 4 x Twin Laser Turret Y-wings and similar built-like-a-brick-outbuilding squads, so follow their example and make sure you're tough enough to take a kicking; lose 1 ship and your numerical advantage over a 2-3 ship 'ace' list could be gone!
• Imperial TLT spam needs no particular introduction:
  • 4 x Seinar Specialist (Twin Laser Turret, Lightweight Frame)
  • They're not exactly tough, but they are acceptably elusive. The Lightweight Frame not working against primary shots at range 3 is irksome, though, since you have less raw toughness than your rebel/scum Y-wing counterparts and lack a green turn, making you easier to pin down unless you give up your action to start barrel rolling.
• TIE advanced make for a good superheavy swarm
  • Tempest Squadron Pilot (TIE/x1, Accuracy Corrector, [Missile], Guidance Chips) x 4
  • It's a nice, simple squad that is easy to use. It's easy to default to the raved-about cruise missiles, but DONT DO THIS. Getting the target lock is hard at long range, a focus/evade-less TIE advanced is relatively easy to kill, and locking yourself into predictable moves is exactly what you don't want to do.
  • Ditto advanced targeting computers. On Darth Vader, with free actions and high PS, the Advanced Targeting Computer is great. For a generic...not so much. By comparison, 2 automatic hits, come stress, come Kanan Jarrus, come M9-G8, is amazing.
  • Proton Rockets are the same price and convert a slight drop in defence (focus rather than evade) into a scary automatic 5-dice-with-focus-and-guidance-chips at range 1. Yes, it's easy to avoid, but if your opponent is running scared of being at range 1 of you, then those accuracy correctors are working overtime. Plus, you have enough points to upgrade one Tempest to Zertik Strom (TIE/x1, Accuracy Corrector, Juke) making range 1 even more of a losing proposition.
  • If you really want to double down on accuracy corrector synergy, cluster missiles are nice, but again getting the target lock is awkward. Fortunately you can aim to end at range 1, so it's not as bad as it might be, and cluster missiles will chop up an agility 1/agility 0 target into chunky salsa double-quick.
• Shuttles......Hmm. They could work in theory but their weakness is and always will be their dial. Keeping a target where it can be shot at is your priority - fortunately you have toughness to burn and lots of slots to do this with.
  • The best 25 point 'dogfighting shuttle' I've seen is Omicron Group Pilot (Electronic Baffle, Tactician/Antipursuit Lasers, Tractor Beam) - the combination of tractor tokens flinging people around, a wide 'stress band' from multiple large ships or blocking threat, and the ability to turn or stop multiple rounds in a row makes them very irritating to face.
  • A good support is a 'Modified Doomshuttle' - Omicron Group Pilot (Collision Detector, Darth Vader, Inspiring Recruit) - Electronic Baffle is nice but Vader will be damaging his ship fast enough that you don't want to throw any more self-harm into the mix. The extra point spent on Recruit gives the other dogfighting shuttles a bit more flexibility, because one of them per turn can use its baffle to burn off a stress it's just received plus a second one it already had, giving you double-value for that point of damage.
• I don't think a mixed-ship-type superheavy swarm would really work. Twin Laser Turrets, or Tacticians, work when you have them en masse.

41 minutes ago, Magnus Grendel said:

• The key tools a swarm has are raw firepower and blocking.
• Massed 2- and 3- dice attacks with 'just focus tokens' is actually pretty good. 5 Strikers or Interceptors, or 8 TIE fighters can turn a Scurrg or Decimator into hamburger at medium range in a couple of turns.
• Blocking is better than it was - TIE/x7 and Attani Mindlink made it all but useless, but people's unholy obsession with veteran instincts and the correction of TIE/x7 to mean you can't claim it if you collide means most things you actually see are vulnerable to being blocked.
• TIE swarms are especially brutal at close range - 3-4 TIE fighters at range 3 are an irritation to a T-70 ace (2 red dice versus 3 green dice with autothrusters is a bad joke) whilst the same at range 1 is a T-70 going home in a bucket (3 red dice versus 2 green dice four times is on a par with a full 100 point squad of heavy fighters).
• You will never make a swarm component ship 'tough' - the swarm concept you want is 'tough enough' , which I generally define as meaning "taking multiple attacks or the expenditure of one-use tricks like missiles, crack shot, etc to take down". 4 Hit points behind 3 green dice is generally enough for this - with 2-ship squads of stupidly expensive aces and large ships being 'the in thing', forcing an opponent to 'waste' a second shot to get a kill is a big deal.
• The issue you have is that you're always losing - that is; you can expect to take the odd point of damage here and there continuously, especially if you end up in a stern chase of a big ship with a turret. Your 'punch' is continuously eroded and there comes a point where you no longer have enough concentrated firepower to be a credible threat - if you're down to 2 TIE fighters or one generic TIE/in or TIE/sk you've probably already lost, it's just taking you a while to die.
• By comparison, your opening punch is a good place to upgrade - it capitalises on the advantages of a swarm; hoping to blow away something big and tasty before the game starts going your opponent's way.
• PS is a trap. Swarms are rare enough that in a swarm versus swarm you'll regret not jumping to PS4, but in 99.9% of games you'll be facing a squad comprised of other named pilots and you'll be looking at PS5+ opponents. In that situation, anything above PS1 is a waste (or whatever your base PS is); because buying up PS is expensive for a swarm - because you buy it once for every ship in your squad , whilst a solitary expensive ace only buys a PS increase once meaning the same points investment buys a much higher PS. Besides which, lower PS is nice for a swarm because you want to move first to block opponents and deny them actions.
• The only reason to buy expensive swarmers is because you have a cheap-ish generic with an elite upgrade - Black Squadron, for example, is the archetypical 'elite swarmer' because that 2 points gives you a slot to equip Crack Shot, not because they're PS4.

Swarms:

• 6-8 ships with 2-dice attacks.
• No matter how elite your pilots (and Ace TIE fighter and TIE/fo pilots are really, really good) be very hesitant about dropping to 5 ships or below because ultimately whatever special rules you have you're still flying TIE fighters and you lack raw firepower and hit points.
• Black Squadron Pilots with Crack Shot or Snap Shot do most of your heavy lifting.
• Mauler Mithel and Scourge are absolutely brutal with Snap Shot, delivering a 3-dice snap shot (and potentially following it with a 4-dice range 1 primary for a 7-dice hail of fire from a sub-20 point ship!)
• Be careful of Fenn Rau; that guy can soak as many range 1 shots as a swarm cares to throw at him (concord dawn, pilot ability) and ditto at range 3 (autothrusters, range defence bonus). Present him with a 2-range deep 'thicket' of TIE fighters to try and block him with the front ones and present a decent number of range 2 attacks is the best thing I can suggest.
• Don't hesitate to evade with standard TIE fighters if your only shot is going to be a 'pointless' shot (Fenn Rau at range 1, Soontir Fel at range 3, etc) - that evade token will help preserve your extra warm body until it gets a shot that's actually going to be useful.
• The 'industry standard' crack shot swarm is:
  • Howlrunner (Crack Shot), 3 x Black Squadron (Crack Shot), 3 x Academy Pilot
  • This gives you the opening Crack Shot/Reroll Barrage, but gets you 1 pilot more than a pure 'crackswarm', useful for blocking (especially when facing other crackswarms) and one extra attack for the mid-game
• My personal favourite swarm is:
  • Youngster (Rage), 7 x Academy Pilot
  • This gives you 8 ships - the most possible of any squad in the game - all save 1 at the same PS allowing you to chop and change movement order as needed, and with a stress-heavy 'pop-on-demand' focus/target lock analogue. Rage is something to throw in when you've got a range 1 shot on a blocked target, or a ship that's going to die this turn or is about to be stressed out of every getting actions again anyway, not something for general use. 8 ships is a really threatening board presences, especially since Youngster works at range 1-3 so you can come in in a loose net that's much harder to avoid than people are used to with TIE swarms, and Rage (being an action) is 'locked in' at the activation phase and can't be taken away if Youngster gets splashed by some PS25 super-ace punting a cruise missile into his face.
• I'd quite like to try a snap shot swarm:
  • Mauler Mithel (Snap Shot), 5 x Black Squadron Pilot (Snap Shot)
  • I fear that with most opponents being turreted ships who run away, it may not do that well these days.

Heavy Swarmers:

• 5 Ships with 3-dice attacks deliver amazing punch. There are 3 imperials capable of this:
  • Scarif Defender/Ailerons/Frame
  • Alpha Squadron/Autothrusters
  • Scimitar Squadron/Rockets/Frame
• I can't speak for the Alphas in person, but they have done well - winning events, even.
• Scarif Defenders are also good - I have plenty of experience with them and they're a joy to fly. They probably wouldn't complement Interceptors in a squad - being rather similar.
• Scimitars I have no experience with. I don't think they're great for a squad by themselves, because their dial and catastrophic dependence on focus tokens to work effectively makes them vulnerable to being forced to actually dogfight rather than just roll slowly forwards blowing stuff to dust bunnies, but I imagine 2 of them would drop well into a striker or interceptor heavy swarm, giving you an 'anvil' that will actually take some killing and can engage an opponent at range 3 with no real problems.

Ordnance in Swarms and Heavy swarms:

• Missiles look like a great way to add some teeth. They are, but they have three problems:
  • Getting a target lock on an opponent with a higher PS in an initial engagement is hard, and if you mess it up, you're stuck with your (generally 2-dice) primary weapon.
  • Target Lock mean you're stuck with unmodified green dice, increasing the risk of getting killed before you ever get your missile shot off.
  • Once the missiles are gone, that ship tend to end up a useless lump of plastic.
• XX-23 S-Thread Tracers are a godsend in this situation:
  • They require a focus token, meaning you can keep a defensive token you can spend to protect yourself if you attract too much attention.
  • They work at range 1-3, not 2-3 like normal missiles, which combined with your requirement of only a focus token means it's easy to get a shot with them
  • They provide a target lock to the rest of your squad - even if you're not in a range 1 'block' (which unless you're using Howlrunner you shouldn't be as it makes avoiding obstacles and bombs far harder) the permissive range 1-2 should cover pretty much all of the engagement zone.
• XX-23 S-Thread Tracers do not work well with TIE/v1 on a generic:
  • Yes, you get a target lock and this gives you an evade token. But receiving an evade token at PS2 means next to nothing because everyone else has already shot at that point, and once the TIE Advanced Prototype's missile tube is empty, the dratted thing can go die in a fire for all the impact it's really likely to have on the game.
• The Scimitar with Guidance Chips/Thread Tracers/Attack Missile is a whole 'nother animal - an acceptably tough brute that your opponent can't afford to ignore.
  • Yes, cruise missiles are the obvious one - a 4-dice attack with unconstrained manoeuvres or a 5-dice in a straight attack run. The former is much better than the latter because your opponent will generally see the latter coming, and because pulling a straight 4 and still ending up not at range 1 of a target is a lot harder than it sounds.
  • Actually more deadly (though for less obvious reasons) are Ion Pulse Missiles. They only do 1 damage, but the point is not just that the target is ionised, but that the target is ionised even if it's a big ship , and more importantly the target is ionised in front of a TIE swarm . See the comment about close-ranged firepower; if a 5-6 ship TIE swarm is close enough to get to range 1 and knows exactly where you're going to end your manoeuvre next turn, you're going home in a bin bag and I don't care what ship and upgrade cards we're talking about.

Super-heavy/Elite Swarmers (4 Ships)

• 4 ships gives you a lot more room for upgrades, but you still need to be frugal.
• You're competing with 4 x Blue Squadron Novices, 4 x Scurrgs, 4 x B-wings, 4 x Twin Laser Turret Y-wings and similar built-like-a-brick-outbuilding squads, so follow their example and make sure you're tough enough to take a kicking; lose 1 ship and your numerical advantage over a 2-3 ship 'ace' list could be gone!
• Imperial TLT spam needs no particular introduction:
  • 4 x Seinar Specialist (Twin Laser Turret, Lightweight Frame)
  • They're not exactly tough, but they are acceptably elusive. The Lightweight Frame not working against primary shots at range 3 is irksome, though, since you have less raw toughness than your rebel/scum Y-wing counterparts and lack a green turn, making you easier to pin down unless you give up your action to start barrel rolling.
• TIE advanced make for a good superheavy swarm
  • Tempest Squadron Pilot (TIE/x1, Accuracy Corrector, [Missile], Guidance Chips) x 4
  • It's a nice, simple squad that is easy to use. It's easy to default to the raved-about cruise missiles, but DONT DO THIS. Getting the target lock is hard at long range, a focus/evade-less TIE advanced is relatively easy to kill, and locking yourself into predictable moves is exactly what you don't want to do.
  • Ditto advanced targeting computers. On Darth Vader, with free actions and high PS, the Advanced Targeting Computer is great. For a generic...not so much. By comparison, 2 automatic hits, come stress, come Kanan Jarrus, come M9-G8, is amazing.
  • Proton Rockets are the same price and convert a slight drop in defence (focus rather than evade) into a scary automatic 5-dice-with-focus-and-guidance-chips at range 1. Yes, it's easy to avoid, but if your opponent is running scared of being at range 1 of you, then those accuracy correctors are working overtime. Plus, you have enough points to upgrade one Tempest to Zertik Strom (TIE/x1, Accuracy Corrector, Juke) making range 1 even more of a losing proposition.
  • If you really want to double down on accuracy corrector synergy, cluster missiles are nice, but again getting the target lock is awkward. Fortunately you can aim to end at range 1, so it's not as bad as it might be, and cluster missiles will chop up an agility 1/agility 0 target into chunky salsa double-quick.
• Shuttles......Hmm. They could work in theory but their weakness is and always will be their dial. Keeping a target where it can be shot at is your priority - fortunately you have toughness to burn and lots of slots to do this with.
  • The best 25 point 'dogfighting shuttle' I've seen is Omicron Group Pilot (Electronic Baffle, Tactician/Antipursuit Lasers, Tractor Beam) - the combination of tractor tokens flinging people around, a wide 'stress band' from multiple large ships or blocking threat, and the ability to turn or stop multiple rounds in a row makes them very irritating to face.
  • A good support is a 'Modified Doomshuttle' - Omicron Group Pilot (Collision Detector, Darth Vader, Inspiring Recruit) - Electronic Baffle is nice but Vader will be damaging his ship fast enough that you don't want to throw any more self-harm into the mix. The extra point spent on Recruit gives the other dogfighting shuttles a bit more flexibility, because one of them per turn can use its baffle to burn off a stress it's just received plus a second one it already had, giving you double-value for that point of damage.
• I don't think a mixed-ship-type superheavy swarm would really work. Twin Laser Turrets, or Tacticians, work when you have them en masse.

Literally one of the best write-ups I've seen in a while. I think I might print this one out....

1 hour ago, Gibbilo said:

Literally one of the best write-ups I've seen in a while. I think I might print this one out....

Absolutely agree! Thanks for such a detailed explanation @Magnus Grendel !

2 hours ago, Magnus Grendel said:

Swarms:

Heavy Swarmers:

• 5 Ships with 3-dice attacks deliver amazing punch. There are 3 imperials capable of this:
  • Scarif Defender/Ailerons/Frame
  • Alpha Squadron/Autothrusters
  • Scimitar Squadron/Rockets/Frame
• I can't speak for the Alphas in person, but they have done well - winning events, even.
• Scarif Defenders are also good - I have plenty of experience with them and they're a joy to fly. They probably wouldn't complement Interceptors in a squad - being rather similar.
• Scimitars I have no experience with. I don't think they're great for a squad by themselves, because their dial and catastrophic dependence on focus tokens to work effectively makes them vulnerable to being forced to actually dogfight rather than just roll slowly forwards blowing stuff to dust bunnies, but I imagine 2 of them would drop well into a striker or interceptor heavy swarm, giving you an 'anvil' that will actually take some killing and can engage an opponent at range 3 with no real problems.

For your Heavy Swarmer Line, Do you think the following list has enough hp/damage/mass to get the job done? seems like it could be a little light on the dice modification:

Alpha Squadron Pilot x2

Imperial Trainee; AA, LWF x2

Sienar Specialist; TLT, LWF

(I thought about HowlRunner or maybe Snap Mithel but unsure if those were better. Seemed like It would be hard to maneuver Howl with the Alphas and Imperial Trainees. Picked the Specialist over Snap Mithel because the consistency of a strafing Sienar seemed too good to pass up). Curious for your thoughts. (Also, I only own two strikers and two Interceptors (but 5 ties, 3 tie/fo, 2 tie/sf, 2 tie/adv, 2 tie/adv prototype, and 2 tie aggressor).)

I was also kind of thinking about this:

Saber Squadron; Crackshot x2

Imperial Trainee; AA, LWF x2

HowlRunner

Unsure if the up to crack shot is worth it. Also unsure if perhaps too much room for error trying to keep Howl in formation with the others.

I think I'm going to either proxy extra academy pilots or maybe just buy another set of them, I think I'm going to like trying out Scimitars and Academy Pilots. Their dials are close enough that I think I can make it work, and the ion missile set up feels dirty in all the best ways. So my list would look something like:

2x Scimitar Squadron Pilot (16)

• Guidance Chips (0)
• Ion Pulse Missiles (3)
• XX-23 S-Thread Tracers (1)

5x Academy Pilot (12)

Total: 100 points

It feels like a lot of ships to fly, I don't think I've ever put 7 ships on the board. In the event that I'm not comfortable with that many and cut back to 6, do you think this next list would fly just as well?

Youngster (15)

• Stealth Device (3)
• Rage (1)

2x Scimitar Squadron Pilot (16)

• Guidance Chips (0)
• Extra Munitions (2)
• Ion Pulse Missiles (3)
• XX-23 S-Thread Tracers (1)

3x Academy Pilot (12)

Total: 99 points

I don't think the extra munitions is terribly important, but it would allow 4 rounds of full modification attacks from the fighters, the bombers would alternate tracers and ions, and the follow up next round would hopefully include lots of range 1 attacks with Raging academy pilots.

52 minutes ago, Gibbilo said:

For your Heavy Swarmer Line, Do you think the following list has enough hp/damage/mass to get the job done? seems like it could be a little light on the dice modification:

Alpha Squadron Pilot x2

Imperial Trainee; AA, LWF x2

Sienar Specialist; TLT, LWF

The big weak spot in that list to me is the Alphas. Finding points for Autothrusters for a generic pilot isn't easy but it can really make the difference on toughness, especially since you seem to see nothing but bloody turrets on the other side of the board these days.

A TIE interceptor without Autothrusters is a TIE fighter paying 6 points for an extra attack die. Not an awful deal, but not an amazing one either (because pilots like Backstabber and Mauler Mithel can do that conditionally much of the time and throw in a high-ish Pilot Skill for the same price). Add autothrusters, though, and you get something like a 50% increase in defence when stuck on unfocused greens (meaning gunners, hotshot copilots, twin laser turrets and the like can get knotted), and if you have a focus token it becomes completely impossible to totally blank your green dice . The level of reassurance this provides imperial players is hard to overstate.

On a 30-40 point Soontir Fel, it's justifiably noted to being vital for survival. For a 20 point alphathruster, it means it'll realistically take three target lock/guidance chip 4-dice cruise or homing missiles to kill just one ship. That's an incredible toughness for cost.

I'm not sure where I'd find the points, but my immediate response is to look critically at the Sienar Specialist. A single Twin Laser Turret may not give you the massed fire you want - although I'm not sure what I'd arm him with instead - a Synched Turret has action economy problems of its own and is vulnerable to opponents who can shed target locks (and only frees up 2 points, not the 4 you need.

If you want a close-quarter brawler, a specialist with an autoblaster turret might make for a nasty surprise for someone? That gives you a range 1 area that's effectively undodgeable on a tough-ish platform (3 green dice, 5 hit points), plus 4 'arc-locked' fighters that can duck, weave and strafe fairly well.

52 minutes ago, Gibbilo said:

I thought about HowlRunner or maybe Snap Mithel but unsure if those were better. Seemed like It would be hard to maneuver Howl with the Alphas and Imperial Trainees.

Definitely. Unless you're leaving your ailerons at home, Strikers do not like "friendly ship at range 1" bonuses because they can't fly slow enough to stay in formation easily, whilst Snap Fire units are good, but Snap shots again strike me as the sort of thing that gets better en masse - because you can lay down a larger area with snap shot arcs covering it.

23 minutes ago, Jimbawa said:

2x Scimitar Squadron Pilot (16)

• Guidance Chips (0)
• Ion Pulse Missiles (3)
• XX-23 S-Thread Tracers (1)

5x Academy Pilot (12)

Total: 100 points

Thought about this myself. It should make for a nasty force to face if you can get used to it.

23 minutes ago, Jimbawa said:

It feels like a lot of ships to fly, I don't think I've ever put 7 ships on the board. In the event that I'm not comfortable with that many and cut back to 6, do you think this next list would fly just as well?

It's not as bad as it looks. At least for deployment and engagement, I'd say you have 3 'ships' - the two bombers, and two groups each of 3 TIE fighters. That's a small enough group to keep in close formation, each group is about 33 points and a fair match for a single ship in the enemy fleet, and small enough in size that you can put them in an off-set 'pinwheel' at deployment where they can all do the same manoeuvre without colliding.

23 minutes ago, Jimbawa said:

In the event that I'm not comfortable with that many and cut back to 6, do you think this next list would fly just as well?

Youngster (15)

• Stealth Device (3)
• Rage (1)

2x Scimitar Squadron Pilot (16)

• Guidance Chips (0)
• Extra Munitions (2)
• Ion Pulse Missiles (3)
• XX-23 S-Thread Tracers (1)

3x Academy Pilot (12)

Total: 99 points

I don't see why not. You've essentially just dropped one TIE fighter to unlock Rage and a heavier weapons load. You've got a reload of Ion Pulse Missiles and Thread Tracers, which makes those bombers very high priority targets (because they're playing 'range 1-2 howlrunner').

I'm not convinced Youngster is really the best option - as long as thread tracers are firing, you've got rerolls covered without needing to stress the bejaebers out of your poor academy pilots, and the Stealth Device seems a very expensive toy to buy a 16 point ship that shouldn't be the squad's primary target anyway (because your opponent will want to kill those bombers if he the sense god gave a concussed gerbil).

Theoretically, XX-23s could support Youngster with Expose, but that puts you reliant on an expensive synergy trick that has to work to be better than just a focus token, so I'm not sure that's a great idea. 12 points for a target locked 3-dice primary attack sounds too good to be true, which means in practice it'll probably be harder to get to work reliably than you'd hope.

As an aside - Extra Munitions mean you're actually paying double price for your second round of thread tracers - it's actually more expensive than just buying a second volley! - granted you get ion pulse missiles too.

One other thought for a mass-swarm-support bomber:

The classic nightmare of a 7+ ship swarm is being dragged through the obstacle field, meaning that by the time you engage you're damaged, out of formation and lacking action-tokens you need to make your shots count. Consider a seismic torpedo to open yourself up a hole - that 2 points could both deny your opponent an 'obstructed shot' green die and allow you to scream in at full speed without having to steer round a big rock your opponent was planning to block your advance with. As an extra, extra bonus, it might even hurt them if they're too close - aces are good at dodging arcs, but when any obstacle on the board can be turned on spec into a range 1 cluster mine, there's suddenly a lot less places to go!

Thanks for the commentary! After dropping in Youngster with Rage I had 8 points left over and just threw things in to fill points. I could definitely drop the stealth device for seismic's on both bombers and be at a flat 100. Clearing out up to 4 of the 6 obstacles would leave a pretty open field for maneuvering my swarm and would probably feel significantly less stressful while learning to fly so many ships.

Because I'm curious, a question for the braintrust assembled here: any thoughts on Tie Advanced Prototypes? The 1-pt. title gives you an evade when you take a TL. Base pilot (Sienar Test Pilot) is only 16. You've got 3 points for either gchips+missile or autothrusters+...well, probably nothing, but you could throw tracers on for giggles. Either of those would put you at 20 points each for 3 green dice, 2 shields (shields!), 2 hull, and either thrusters or ordnance with a decent dial and an evade every time you take a TL.

7 hours ago, Naechtweard said:

Because I'm curious, a question for the braintrust assembled here: any thoughts on Tie Advanced Prototypes? The 1-pt. title gives you an evade when you take a TL. Base pilot (Sienar Test Pilot) is only 16. You've got 3 points for either gchips+missile or autothrusters+...well, probably nothing, but you could throw tracers on for giggles. Either of those would put you at 20 points each for 3 green dice, 2 shields (shields!), 2 hull, and either thrusters or ordnance with a decent dial and an evade every time you take a TL.

The TIE advanced Prototype is a wonderful little ship - 4 hit points, agility 3, boost and barrel roll and a dial that makes it an extremely capable close-quarter fighter.

TIE/v1 is nice, but is best used with something other than thread tracers - if you target lock as your action, you get a free evade at the same time - a 2-dice ship with a target lock and evade token is actually not bad, especially if it can get to range 1.

If you try and use thread tracers, though, you're focusing and receiving your target lock - and more importantly your evade - after everyone else at PS5+ has already fired. Making the evade token a bit pointless.

If I was going to field them as a heavy swarm, I'd consider the title and autothrusters. The evade/lock ability is nice for general-purpose use, and the whole package is 19 points - saving you a few points to spend elsewhere. Alternatively, sub out autothrusters for guidance chips and proton rockets for a nasty close-range punch.

There's been some good things said already, but I feel inclined to add some things:

I actually think the TIE swarm is pretty good in the current meta. Your worst matchup is probably Dengar + Tel because they can potentially destroy 2 TIEs before they even shoot and there's not much you can do to stop it (except hope luck swings heavily in your favour!)

My current TIE swarm (which I've posted before):

Howlrunner w/ VI = 19

Scimitar w/ shuttle, ops spec & intel agent = 20

5 academies = 60

99

Its a solid list. You get the all-important action economy that your TIEs desperately need thanks to operations specialist. On the first turn of shooting, always evade with your TIEs. Howlrunner generates a bonus focus token at PS 10 (unless she somehow manages to hit with her range 3 shot!). Use the focus on her if she's in danger, otherwise use it to generate offense with your academies. Ops Spec + Howl re-roll means your academies are either scoring 2 hits or they miss and give the next academy a high chance for 2 hits. You push damage through eventually. The list is strong against Fairship rebels because once you bump lowrick + biggs, even selflessness/draw their fire/Integrated astro cannot stop the inevitable. I think Nym can be problematic because of bomblet generator is stupid broken, but maybe the designers will realize their folly and FAQ it. In the meantime, you can beat Nym with focus fire, since he has only 1 agility and 7 ships shooting should burn him down quick, but of course, catching him in arc with all of your ships can be tricky...

--------------------------------------------

As for 5 alphas or 5 strikers, I think a mix of the two is not a bad idea. Alphas are best against turrets (thanks to autothrusters) but are weaker against jousters (only 3 health). By throwing in a couple Imperial Trainees with AA + LWF, you get an extra hull to weather the damage trade when hitting an enemy head on. I haven't tried it yet myself, but I think I might now that we are into a 'competitive lull'.

For added silliness as somehow Magnus overlooked them are the F/O Ties. Bit tougher more maneuvering options, overall better dials. And you can still get a fari number into some list.

5x Epsilon Pilots: Hull upgrade and PA or 6 with primed thrusters at 96 points

Nastier than it looks, Stress you don't care about honestly. And 5/4 toughness plus if your in a position to shoot without fear of return fire you can Target lock for an action with the initial squad

Omega Squadron x5: 85 pts

options options options here: Snap shot and MK2 Engines? Check. PTL for wonderful action economy? CHECK! Or just simple survival skills with Comm relays.

The thread tracers on autothrustered test pilots was just a goofy thing for the stray points. Rather than a 5 point bid, I'd likely just stick a 3-point missile on one of the prototypes (likely Ion Pulse to try and set up a juicy target).

I have actually run 5 F/O ties, but only as 4 Omega Squadron crackshots+Omega Leader. Throwing an ace in there, even a cheap one, really changes the way the squad flies. Four-plus-one just isn't the same.