Mostly just moving this over here to answer @geek19's question without sidetracking the thread it was in. Sorry it ended up so long.

1 minute ago, geek19 said:

@Ardaedhel, I assume this is Sloane based? What's the rest of your fleet with this build, may I ask? I have a buddy who's trying to make her work but he can't get the ship damage to be worthwhile with her, so I figured I'd ask.

Well, I thought (maybe I'm the only one) that OP was asking for just 100% force-on-force squadron dueling, but now everybody's responding with balanced squadron wings. But, given that all fighters go go turbo mode was pretty much my criteria in building this, it still works.

That said, yes, it's for a Sloane list. The one I'm using in the Vassal tournament right now. And since I like all of my objectives and don't care if I go first or second, I'm posting those too.

Sloane Prototype (397/400)
=========================
Imperial II-class Star Destroyer (120 + 53)
+ Admiral Sloane (24)
+ Skilled First Officer (1)
+ Gunnery Team (7)
+ Electronic Countermeasures (7)
+ Leading Shots (4)
+ Quad Battery Turrets (5)
+ Avenger (5)
Quasar Fire I-class Cruiser-Carrier (54 + 12)
+ Skilled First Officer (1)
+ Flight Controllers (6)
+ Expanded Hangar Bay (5)
Gozanti-class Cruisers (23 + 2)
+ Comms Net (2)
Soontir Fel (18)
Ciena Ree (17)
"Howlrunner" (16)
"Mauler" Mithel (15)
Valen Rudor (13)
Saber Squadron (12)
3 x Tie Interceptor Squadron (11)
Black Squadron (9)

Blockade Run
Planetary Ion Cannon
Superior Positions

There are some things I really like about it, and some things I've learned. Most importantly, the QF really needs Boosted Comms. I'm trying out a couple of reshuffles on it, but I think I've mostly settled on dropping one of the SFOs and just doing away with the bid, since I'm happy as first or second. I waffled on dropping QBT to pay for it, but that one extra blue adds a surprising amount of punch to the ISD2, especially in those side/rear double-arc scenarios that a lot of people end up in after trying to dodge the front arc.

I also just threw those objectives together, so would probably go PIC -> Fighter Ambush. I'm not sure about the red: I like Blockade Run, played it twice and it worked well for me both times (even though I lost one, that had less to do with the objective and more to do with my poor planning/Moodswing being a boss), but I'm not sure it's worth it over MW.

The idea is to win the squadron fight fast while taking some ship fire on the chin with Avenger if I have to, then use the cloud of TIEs to sandpaper down ships in conjunction with Avenger.

The squadron makeup is objectively perfect and flawless. The alpha strike of roughly 36 blues is truly ridiculous. In my three Vassal games and a couple of IRL games, I've faced several very strong Mustache Rides and Jan Balls. In exchange, I generally lose a couple of vanilla Interceptors or an ace + Black. There's just no good way for another fleet to weather that alpha without overinvesting in squadrons for most other matchups.

Then you turn around and go to town on ships. With each accuracy effectively contributing to Avenger's damage throughput, the fighter's blue die with rerolls on crits only have about a 6% chance to whiff, making their rolls roughly as reliable as most BCC bombers. The scatters mean that, once the squadron game is won, the aces can generally camp in ship arcs with relative impunity, especially since those ships usually have an ISD bearing down on them that they need to be shooting instead. Speed 4/5 makes it easy to avoid overlapping flak as long as you're smart about where and when you park them. Even if you're forced to eat some flak, you've got that scatter discard in your back pocket just in case. The other day Avenger and the squadrons handled two Liberties head-on inside of two turns--while also handling the A-wing escorts.

Biggest issues that I run into are pretty obvious: few activations and all my eggs are in the Avenger basket. The QF and Gozanti are very vulnerable, so if I don't effectively shield them with the ISD, they're both going to die. That's hard to do against MC30/GSD type lists, though I've only encountered one of those so far. In the few games where I've brought it, Boosted Comms goes a long way toward helping the QF's survivability, because it lets me push the squadrons from the far side of the ISD. Ship damage is pretty solid, but depends on the squadrons cleaning up fast and Avenger being in position.

Thanks! I think my friend was playing something similar, but his Sloane issues stem from, and I'll quote him here:

Blockade Run? For only 3 ships? Not really worth it.
Ion Cannon without Strategic is a no go as well.
There are far better missions for this list. Most Wanted and Fire Lanes for example.

And i am not really a fan of Sloane with ISD and Quasar. 3 ships are just not enough. And a Quasar without Boosted Comms has to be really close to the combat. And is in a extreme danger to getting killed way to early.
The problem is, that most see Sloane and want to combine it with the Avenger. After this they want a carrier as well. But for me these do not fit together. It is to expensive. ISD as Carrier or Quasar as carrier and smaller ships for combat. This would be my suggestions.
See it this way. With Sloane you want 134 points in squadrons. The ISD II cost around 170 points. This means there are 300 points of your 400 gone. This really does not give a lot of room for adjustment.

Another suggestion would be to bring two Shuttles into the game. With relay 4, you might be able to keep the quasar far enough out of the combat zone to protect it way better. And it gives you some more good missions where you can abuse the strategic.

3 minutes ago, geek19 said:

Thanks! I think my friend was playing something similar, but his Sloane issues stem from, and I'll quote him here:

"The squad killing hasn't been an issue with my Sloane fleet. It's been Sloane herself. You build this really cool squad list but then you have a weak ship list. I used Sloane more in my game yesterday. I never felt like she was a game changer. I think I changed 2 crits into a hit and a lockdown during the game. I spent a few defense tokens but it didn't seem game changing. But in both games both my Avenger and quasar were killed with the exact points to kill them. So, had I had Motti (same points) they would have both lived till the next turn and who knows how the games would have turned out."

He might have been using an ISD-I, though. I assume the II is to keep you at distance in order to just push damage in without taking much back?

Pretty much. I went for II with GT to mitigate the low number of activations: increase the threat area and my ability to hold two ships under threat with that front arc.

2 minutes ago, Tokra said:

Blockade Run? For only 3 ships? Not really worth it.
Ion Cannon without Strategic is a no go as well.
There are far better missions for this list. Most Wanted and Fire Lanes for example.

And i am not really a fan of Sloane with ISD and Quasar. 3 ships are just not enough. And a Quasar without Boosted Comms has to be really close to the combat. And is in a extreme danger to getting killed way to early.
The problem is, that most see Sloane and want to combine it with the Avenger. After this they want a carrier as well. But for me these do not fit together. It is to expensive. ISD as Carrier or Quasar as carrier and smaller ships for combat. This would be my suggestions.
See it this way. With Sloane you want 134 points in squadrons. The ISD II cost around 170 points. This means there are 300 points of your 400 gone. This really does not give a lot of room for adjustment.

Another suggestion would be to bring two Shuttles into the game. With relay 4, you might be able to keep the quasar far enough out of the combat zone to protect it way better. And it gives you some more good missions where you can abuse the strategic.

First, you did see that I addressed the bolded parts in the writeup, right?

Fire Lanes is terrible for this list. With only three ships, I can't be tied to one spot like that, I have to be moving. Also, I didn't bring strategic to shuffle the tokens, so it's a liability, especially with an ISD.

On the Lambda point, it's significantly cheaper to put BC on a QF than it is to cut into my extremely valuable squadron points just to relay, particularly when I want one of my three ships in the fight anyway. Relay is great when you're running a flotilla swarm, but not so much to support a six-fighter alpha strike. Furthermore, 30 points will very significantly cut into the alpha strike, which is kind of what the list hinges on. The weaker your alpha with interceptors, the more you pay for foregoing all that hull. Also, Strategic is there for the Blue and Yellow objectives, both of which I am quite happy with.

Blockade Run actually works really well to funnel the opponent into a knock-down head-on fight, which is what I need with a single ISD as the basis of the fleet. The VP are a bonus, not the point. But, again, I did mention that I'd probably switch it out for MW. I've been actively avoiding MW recently because it's boring and ubiquitous.

Three ships is fine with a little practice. I've been out-activated every single game, usually by two or three, and it hasn't been much of an issue. This list brings very long-range threat to bear, between the fast squadrons and QBT/LS on Avenger, mitigating activation disadvantage substantially.

On the archetype point, it sounds like what you actually don't like is ISD + 134 points of squadrons, which... I mean, that's fine. I just disagree. Flotillas are great, but they absolutely wither to Sloane fighters + Avenger, even at long range.

3 minutes ago, Ardaedhel said:

Pretty much. I went for II with GT to mitigate the low number of activations: increase the threat area and my ability to hold two ships under threat with that front arc.

First, you did see that I addressed the bolded parts in the writeup, right?

Fire Lanes is terrible for this list. With only three ships, I can't be tied to one spot like that, I have to be moving. Also, I didn't bring strategic to shuffle the tokens, so it's a liability, especially with an ISD.

On the Lambda point, it's significantly cheaper to put BC on a QF than it is to cut into my extremely valuable squadron points just to relay, particularly when I want one of my three ships in the fight anyway. Relay is great when you're running a flotilla swarm, but not so much to support a six-fighter alpha strike. Furthermore, 30 points will very significantly cut into the alpha strike, which is kind of what the list hinges on. The weaker your alpha with interceptors, the more you pay for foregoing all that hull. Also, Strategic is there for the Blue and Yellow objectives, both of which I am quite happy with.

Blockade Run actually works really well to funnel the opponent into a knock-down head-on fight, which is what I need with a single ISD as the basis of the fleet. The VP are a bonus, not the point. But, again, I did mention that I'd probably switch it out for MW. I've been actively avoiding MW recently because it's boring and ubiquitous.

Three ships is fine with a little practice. I've been out-activated every single game, usually by two or three, and it hasn't been much of an issue. This list brings very long-range threat to bear, between the fast squadrons and QBT/LS on Avenger, mitigating activation disadvantage substantially.

On the archetype point, it sounds like what you actually don't like is ISD + 134 points of squadrons, which... I mean, that's fine. I just disagree. Flotillas are great, but they absolutely wither to Sloane fighters + Avenger, even at long range.

I was actually ok with your Blockade Run argument. I've considered it in my own carrier lists just to minimize where your squadrons have to get to in order to start attacking things. And with speed 5 on a lot of them, that is one **** of an alpha into your opponent.

And I've used Planetary Ion Cannon as a default yellow. They might move the tokens once, but if you get the alpha then on their VCX/Lamda, that's a most likely dead (or at the very least, stuck) Strategic ship.

I know when Raddus drops I'll be contemplating a 3 ship fleet. I can't promise it'll be GOOD, but it'll be interesting, that's for sure.

3 minutes ago, Ardaedhel said:

Pretty much. I went for II with GT to mitigate the low number of activations: increase the threat area and my ability to hold two ships under threat with that front arc.

First, you did see that I addressed the bolded parts in the writeup, right?

Fire Lanes is terrible for this list. With only three ships, I can't be tied to one spot like that, I have to be moving. Also, I didn't bring strategic to shuffle the tokens, so it's a liability, especially with an ISD.

On the Lambda point, it's significantly cheaper to put BC on a QF than it is to cut into my extremely valuable squadron points just to relay, particularly when I want one of my three ships in the fight anyway. Relay is great when you're running a flotilla swarm, but not so much to support a six-fighter alpha strike. Furthermore, 30 points will very significantly cut into the alpha strike, which is kind of what the list hinges on. The weaker your alpha with interceptors, the more you pay for foregoing all that hull. Also, Strategic is there for the Blue and Yellow objectives, both of which I am quite happy with.

Blockade Run actually works really well to funnel the opponent into a knock-down head-on fight, which is what I need with a single ISD as the basis of the fleet. The VP are a bonus, not the point. But, again, I did mention that I'd probably switch it out for MW. I've been actively avoiding MW recently because it's boring and ubiquitous.

Three ships is fine with a little practice. I've been out-activated every single game, usually by two or three, and it hasn't been much of an issue. This list brings very long-range threat to bear, between the fast squadrons and QBT/LS on Avenger, mitigating activation disadvantage substantially.

On the archetype point, it sounds like what you actually don't like is ISD + 134 points of squadrons, which... I mean, that's fine. I just disagree. Flotillas are great, but they absolutely wither to Sloane fighters + Avenger, even at long range.

I do know that you lose the alpha strike when switching out "combat" squadrons for shuttles. But your Quasar has to be way to near to the fight without Boosted Comms. This bring him in great danger, and cost you quite a few points and the squadron attack bonus.
Using two shuttles protect the quasar and give you the options with the missions via the strategic.

I am flying an ISD and 134 points in squadrons myself on the vassal tournament , so this is not the problem. But i prefer 5 ships as activations instead of 3. I am not using shuttles myself, for the same reason as you said. It lowers the damage. But i do use Jendon as relay, his ability does not cost you anything on the damage part.

Just now, Tokra said:

But i do use Jendon as relay, his ability does not cost you anything on the damage part.

It costs me a whole interceptor's damage, both AS and AA.

Jendon is 21 points.

Two Interceptors are 22.

The only thing Jendon gains you is a non-FC double tap with Saber, and the increased range for the flotilla which I'm generally not activating squadrons with anyway. BC keeps the QF far enough away, and Jendon alone can't support the QF's full complement anyway. And the QF is the only ship that really needs the range boost, because Avenger wants to be in the fight with the squadrons directly supporting it.

Btw, I appreciate the feedback. I don't mean to be dismissive, just explaining why I made the decisions I did.

Well, if you've been using it in the tournament. How has it been working out? That is where the rubber meets the road.

1 hour ago, mhd said:

Well, if you've been using it in the tournament. How has it been working out? That is where the rubber meets the road.

I've been pretty happy with it overall, minus the changes I pointed out in the OP. It's not bad for a list that includes squadrons. (I usually fly 4 MC30/3 GR75 squadronless)

I'm sitting at 23 points at the end of Round 3, but pretty hard to judge my position given that the entire remainder of my region has yet to play this round. 5-6, 8-3, 10-1.

Like it, within the framework of a GT/ECM ISD-2 Avenger, Quasar, 3 activations, massive alpha it's about as good as it gets.

The minor points you've already talked about: Boosted Comms. At the very least the Quasar should have it, preferably the ISD-2 too. Although I haven't seen you play it, so maybe you're more aggressive with your ISD than I am.

Don't like Ion Cannon wo strategic. Getting like 1 shot over the course of a game isn't that great. Blockade Run is legit, I think. Reduces flanking options for your opponent.

4 hours ago, Green Knight said:

Don't like Ion Cannon wo strategic. Getting like 1 shot over the course of a game isn't that great.

The Midwest is weird, as I don't often see Strategic (or a lot of heavy squadron builds, for that matter) up here. Given that it gives you distance 1-3, how often do you end up not getting to fire off most of the ion cannon tokens when your opponent brings strategic?

2 hours ago, geek19 said:

The Midwest is weird, as I don't often see Strategic (or a lot of heavy squadron builds, for that matter) up here. Given that it gives you distance 1-3, how often do you end up not getting to fire off most of the ion cannon tokens when your opponent brings strategic?

In a vacuum (insert space joke here), a single Strategic can move a token pretty far out of position. My idea is that it should be possible to set them up, deploy, and join combat in such a way that, in order to do so, they have to choose either to expose their Strategic early to the alpha or eat at least one PIC while in range of Avenger or follow-up squadrons.

Most importantly, though, I think I can use the mere threat of this to close off flanks during deployment, much like what I'm using BR for.

The other piece of the calculus is that, somewhat often, anyone with a strong (>1) investment in Strategic wants to play their own objectives anyway and will go for P2. So, while yes this one could fall on its face if someone brought 3 Strategic or 2+FCT or whatever, you're less likely to be playing this against those lists anyway.

This is all hypothetical, though, because I can't very anybody to pick it. Which is fine too, I guess, because I like Blockade Run, and Superior Positions is virtually un-pickable here. I do think Fighter Ambush might be a better choice for this fleet, I just worry what losing all my deployments will do.