9 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

Alchemy is used to craft permanently Force Imbued objects. A Holocron is a permanently Force Imbued Object.

Are you claiming that includes lightsabers?

my position is that since lightsabers got one off special case rules, so should holocrons (because you get to choose their effects), all the alchemical potions and talismans... the effect is dictated, sure you can apply crafting upgrades but it's not like you're choosing career skills or anything which you should be able to do with holocrons.

7 minutes ago, SavageBob said:

You mean Inspiring Rhetoric and Improved Inspiring Rhetoric? To me, that's the very definition of the Prophet. If you read the fluff, the spec is intended to represent a leader, a mystic who inspires a following. What better way to inspire your faithful than with those two talents?

The problem to me is that that’s not all the prophet is. The prophet can also be a doomsday priest who preaches compulsive service through fear. Think baptist preachers. This fits especially well in the ecstatic religious archetype in the preceding portion.

My beef is that you have a dark side overwhelming aura skill that could spring from scathing tirade that allows for two paths up in the prophet; one based on coercion and fear, and the other leadership and inspiration. But even though the talent selection clearly indicates this, and even though those are two legitimate types of prophetic character types, the spec really railroads the prophet into a single path, one that really doesn’t support both potential archetypes.

Im away from book, but one other link to the upper tiers would solve my gripe.

3 minutes ago, EliasWindrider said:

Are you claiming that includes lightsabers?

Lightsabers don’t need it because Kyber crystals are already imbued with the Force naturally. All the Jedi has to do is attune it to himself/herself, not imbue it with the Force. A Holocron has to actually be imbued with a portion of the Jedi’s Force power and spirit in order to create the gatekeeper. That’s Alchemy.

4 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

Lightsabers don’t need it because Kyber crystals are already imbued with the Force naturally. All the Jedi has to do is attune it to himself/herself, not imbue it with the Force. A Holocron has to actually be imbued with a portion of the Jedi’s Force power and spirit in order to create the gatekeeper. That’s Alchemy.

it's mysticism certainly, but it's not exactly what I would call alchemy, and for all we know it could have a kyber crystal and involve a clever programming interface that imprints on the jedi's mental state.

1 minute ago, EliasWindrider said:

it's mysticism certainly, but it's not exactly what I would call alchemy, and for all we know it could have a kyber crystal and involve a clever programming interface that imprints on the jedi's mental state.

Yes, it is Alchemy, since you are permanently imbuing an object with the Force, just as you would when creating a Talisman. At its most fundamental, a Holocron is a Force talisman.

13 minutes ago, Thebearisdriving said:

The problem to me is that that’s not all the prophet is. The prophet can also be a doomsday priest who preaches compulsive service through fear. Think baptist preachers. This fits especially well in the ecstatic religious archetype in the preceding portion.

My beef is that you have a dark side overwhelming aura skill that could spring from scathing tirade that allows for two paths up in the prophet; one based on coercion and fear, and the other leadership and inspiration. But even though the talent selection clearly indicates this, and even though those are two legitimate types of prophetic character types, the spec really railroads the prophet into a single path, one that really doesn’t support both potential archetypes.

Im away from book, but one other link to the upper tiers would solve my gripe.

Ah, OK, I can see that. Yeah, they could have made an alternative path that went straight down to Fearsome on the left side (through Scathing Tirade). I would let a player do that if they were interested in a fire-and-brimstone preacher who didn't have much in the way of a positive message.

2 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

Yes, it is Alchemy, since you are permanently imbuing an object with the Force, just as you would when creating a Talisman. At its most fundamental, a Holocron is a Force talisman.

we'll just have to agree to disagree, it COULD BE Alchemy but it hasn't been established to be Alchemy in the disney cannon

5 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

Yes, it is Alchemy, since you are permanently imbuing an object with the Force, just as you would when creating a Talisman. At its most fundamental, a Holocron is a Force talisman.

2 minutes ago, EliasWindrider said:

we'll just have to agree to disagree, it COULD BE Alchemy but it hasn't been established to be Alchemy in the disney cannon

Everything YOU THOUGHT YOU KNEW about star wars was put into a state of limbo with the Disney reset until reasserted in the new cannon, you haven't seemed to have adapted to that yet.

Personally, I feel the force is what the practioner wants it to be. With a great enough yeast infection and a strong imagination, anything can be born from the mess of the mystical.

Including evil.

7 minutes ago, LordBritish said:

Personally, I feel the force is what the practioner wants it to be. With a great enough yeast infection and a strong imagination, anything can be born from the mess of the mystical.

Including evil.

Actually it’s whatever the GM wants it to be to be accurate ?

4 minutes ago, Random Bystander said:

Actually it’s whatever the GM wants it to be to be accurate ?

Exactly what I said! With a strong enough yeast infection... XD

I jest don't hurt me GM!

5 minutes ago, EliasWindrider said:

Everything YOU THOUGHT YOU KNEW about star wars was put into a state of limbo with the Disney reset until reasserted in the new cannon, you haven't seemed to have adapted to that yet.

Wrong. If I hadn’t adjusted to the new canon, I would not have brought up the fact that Kyber crystals are naturally Force imbued already, which was not the case in the old canon (now Legends). I’m Legends, a lightsaber crystal had to be imbued with the Force during the crafting process. Under the new canon, this is no longer the case. Now, all the Jedi needs to do is attune his crystal to himself.

By contrast, even under the new canon, Holocron need to be imbued with the Force and a portion of the Jedi’s spirit in order to imprint it with his knowledge and to create the sentient gatekeeper. That is Alchemy.

16 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

Wrong. If I hadn’t adjusted to the new canon, I would not have brought up the fact that Kyber crystals are naturally Force imbued already, which was not the case in the old canon (now Legends). I’m Legends, a lightsaber crystal had to be imbued with the Force during the crafting process. Under the new canon, this is no longer the case. Now, all the Jedi needs to do is attune his crystal to himself.

By contrast, even under the new canon, Holocron need to be imbued with the Force and a portion of the Jedi’s spirit in order to imprint it with his knowledge and to create the sentient gatekeeper. That is Alchemy.

please cite sources backing up your claims, something definitive that is not open to interpretation.

E.g. you like to assert that the claim Finn made in TFA in a particular context (the planet Jarku which is littered with starship debris) is "proof" that First Order tie fighter sensors suck in all situations, that is your interpretation but it is not the ONLY possible interpretation.

So please cite something from the Disney cannon that is not open to interpretation that backs up your claims about holocrons, specifically the bolded parts in the post I'm quoting.

If you are unable to provide such a citation it demonstrates that you have indeed had difficulty adjusting to the disney cannon reset and you weren't even aware of your own bias.

Simple. Star Wars Rebels . The episodes dealing with Darth Maul and the Jedi and Sith Holocrons in Esra’s possession. The show specifically established that Holocrons are extremely powerful Force imbued artifacts; artifacts with sentient gatekeepers with wills of their own, as shown by the Sith Holocron.

As for Finn’s line in TFA, that was not a statement based upon Jakku’s particular terrain, something he had very limited knowledge of. It was a statement specifically about the limitations of First Order technology, which was something he was intimately familiar with . He didn’t tell Rey to fly low because Jakku’s unique terrain would mess with the TIE fighters’ sensors, he told her to fly low because flying low in general confuses their sensors. It was a blanket statement regarding a flaw in First Order technology.

4 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

Simple. Star Wars Rebels . The episodes dealing with Darth Maul and the Jedi and Sith Holocrons in Esra’s possession. The show specifically established that Holocrons are extremely powerful Force imbued artifacts; artifacts with sentient gatekeepers with wills of their own, as shown by the Sith Holocron.

As for Finn’s line in TFA, that was not a statement based upon Jakku’s particular terrain, something he had very limited knowledge of. It was a statement specifically about the limitations of First Order technology, which was something he was intimately familiar with . He didn’t tell Rey to fly low because Jakku’s unique terrain would mess with the TIE fighters’ sensors, he told her to fly low because flying low in general confuses their sensors. It was a blanket statement regarding a flaw in First Order technology.

droids have wills of their own, where does it state that a Jedi put a portion of his spirit in it.

regarding TFA... I'm pretty sure Finn knew that Jarku was littered with starship debris (it was obvious), as for his reasoning that's pure conjecture on your part, especially because he WAS NOT INTIMATELY FAMILIAR WITH TIE FIGHTERS and we know that for sure because he busted Po out of the brig because he needed him to pilot a tie fighter.

2 minutes ago, EliasWindrider said:

SaveRey in The finale of the movie.droids have wills of their own, where does it state that a Jedi put a portion of his spirit in it.

regarding TFA... I'm pretty sure Finn knew that Jarku was littered with starship debris (it was obvious), as for his reasoning that's pure conjecture on your part, especially because he WAS NOT INTIMATELY FAMILIAR WITH TIE FIGHTERS and we know that for sure because he busted Po out of the brig because he needed him to pilot a tie fighter.

Watch the episodes Twilight of the Apprentice , Holocrons of Fate , and Visions and Voices . They not only say that Holocrons are powerful and sentient Force artifacts with wills of their own, they explicitly show it .

And no, Finn’s statement had nothing to do with Jakku’s terrain specifically. Finn has been consistently shown throughout the movie to have intimate knowledge of First Order technology and procedures. It is this knowledge, that he repeatedly taps into in order to get himself and his companions out of danger and to save Rey in the final act of the movie. He wasn’t on Jakku long enough to develop any sort of knowledge about the planet or it’s terrain. All he went by, and all he ever goes by throughout the movie, is his intimate fist hand knowledge of the First Order. That is not conjecture. I’ve seen the move dozens of times now. Finn was talking about a flaw in First Order tech , not the terrain of Jakku.

3 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

Watch the episodes Twilight of the Apprentice , Holocrons of Fate , and Visions and Voices . They not only say that Holocrons are powerful and sentient Force artifacts with wills of their own, they explicitly show it .

And no, Finn’s statement had nothing to do with Jakku’s terrain specifically. Finn has been consistently shown throughout the movie to have intimate knowledge of First Order technology and procedures. It is this knowledge, that he repeatedly taps into in order to get himself and his companions out of danger and to save Rey in the final act of the movie. He wasn’t on Jakku long enough to develop any sort of knowledge about the planet or it’s terrain. All he went by, and all he ever goes by throughout the movie, is his intimate fist hand knowledge of the First Order. That is not conjecture. I’ve seen the move dozens of times now. Finn was talking about a flaw in First Order tech , not the terrain of Jakku.

you seem to be unable to cite something that says a jedi put a portion of their spirit in it

and you repeatedly asserting your interpretation does not make it true, and not being able to see/admit that reveals your bias.

lightsabers or their crystals appear to have wills as of TFA and the clone wars gathering episodes

12 minutes ago, EliasWindrider said:

you seem to be unable to cite something that says a jedi put a portion of their spirit in it

and you repeatedly asserting your interpretation does not make it true, and not being able to see/admit that reveals your bias.

lightsabers or their crystals appear to have wills as of TFA and the clone wars gathering episodes

Lightsaber crystals are naturally imbued with the Force . So it makes sense that they could have a will of their own.

Finn’s statement was specifically, “Fly low! It confuses their sensors!” He does not say, “Fly low, Jakku’s terrain” will confuse their sensors.” He says the flying low confuses their sensors. You don’t get much more explicit than that. That is not conjecture it is explicitly what he said verbatim . Flying low confuses the sensors on First Order TIE fighters. That is specifically what he told Rey.

As for Holocrons I refer you to this . Holocrons are imbued by their creators with the Force, and their spirits. Their gatekeepers are sentient with wills of their own. Watch the episodes I cited.

Why you are forcing an argument about this, I don’t know. All I wanted to put forth is that I was disappointed that Holocrons weren’t included on the crafting table. I shouldn’t have to justify my disappointment .

Just now, Tramp Graphics said:

Finn’s statement was specifically, “Fly low! It confuses their sensors!” He does not say, “Fly low, Jakku’s terrain” will confuse their sensors.” He says the flying low confuses their sensors. You don’t get much more explicit than that. That is not conjecture it is explicitly what he said verbatim . Flying low confuses the sensors on First Order TIE fighters. That is specifically what he told Rey.

As for Holocrons I refer you to this . Holocrons are imbued by their creators with the Force, and their spirits. Their gatekeepers are sentient with wills of their own. Watch the episodes I cited.

Why you are forcing an argument about this, I don’t know. All I wanted to put forth is that I was disappointed that Holocrons weren’t included on the crafting table. I shouldn’t have to justify my disappointment .

1) if you had a few seconds to explain something, how much detail would you include???? so no a very brief statement is most definitely not explicit

2) the link you furnished says nothing about a jedi putting a portion of their spirit in it under the cannon section, which demonstrates that you've had trouble adjusting to the Disney cannon reset.

3) I am not the one forcing an argument here, and I'm NOT requiring you to justify your disappointment , I actually agreed with you that the mystic or maybe the consular book was the most appropriate place to put holocron crafting rules and stated my preference for special one off crafting rules like they had for lightsabers. I said it was unclear/open to interpretation about whether the holocron creation process was Alchemical or not and said we'll just have to agree to disagree on whether it was or not, But you kept INSISTING that crafting a holocron has to be, can only be, ALCHEMICAL crafting, and now so when I ask you to cite a definitive source on that, and you utterly fail to do so, you try to change the narrative/recast the discussion to be about something else entirely... no you don't get to do that, you the aggressor do not get to play the victim. This discussion was about YOU repeatedly insisting and then failing to prove that holocron crafting has to be alchemical crafting.

A Holocron is a powerful Force imbued artifact canonically shown to have a sentience with ability to converse with the individual who activated it, and even restrict who can activate it. And, when a Jedi and Sith Holocron are combined, they are shown to be capable of granting any information the seeker desires, even visions of the future or of places far away. That requires Alchemy to create. It is not something that can be done just through normal construction.

As for Finn, had he been referring to Jakku’s unique terrain, he would have told Rey to “fly through the wreckage”, to confuse the TIE fighters’ sensors. It would have taken the same amount of time. Instead he tells her that flying low confuses the TIE fighters’ sensors.

Doesnt the techer spec have a holocron creation talent?

8 minutes ago, Daeglan said:

Doesnt the techer spec have a holocron creation talent?

No, it doesn’t

19 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

A Holocron is a powerful Force imbued artifact canonically shown to have a sentience with ability to converse with the individual who activated it, and even restrict who can activate it. And, when a Jedi and Sith Holocron are combined, they are shown to be capable of granting any information the seeker desires, even visions of the future or of places far away. That requires Alchemy to create. It is not something that can be done just through normal construction.

As for Finn, had he been referring to Jakku’s unique terrain, he would have told Rey to “fly through the wreckage”, to confuse the TIE fighters’ sensors. It would have taken the same amount of time. Instead he tells her that flying low confuses the TIE fighters’ sensors.

You repeattedly asserting weak arguments doesn't make them any less weak. And saying to fly through the wreckage is nonsensical/possibly suicidal/and unnecessary. Give it up already.

For someone who was crying foul about me "forcing" an argument a "moment" ago, you seem to be entirely unwilling to walk away. I think that demonstrates who the agressor/bully is here. By the way me standing up to a bully does not make me a bully.

Also they say that a friend is someone who truly knows you and likes you anyway..

... should I take your expressed disappointment with unlimited power to mean that it is not one of the two FaD books that you want for birthday/Christmas this December?

In other words, to all the onlookers, even though @Tramp Graphics and I argue like an old married couple, we've been good friends in real life for a decade and a half. That's why I know all of his arguing tricks... a.k.a. "your tricks don't work on me boy." ?

There’s no tricks just the facts, and you know I never back down. As for wanting Unlimited Power, I plan on having every book, eventually.

And, the issue with Finn’s statement is not a weak argument. He could have just as easily told Rey to keep close to the wreckage (not necessarily flying into the superstructures of them, which, I agree could be suicidal), but simply telling her flying among the wreckage would confuse the TIEs, if it were the wreckage and Jakku’s unique terrain he was talking about. Instead he makes it clear that flying low alone is what confuses the TIE fighters’ sensors. It doesn’t get much clearer than that. And considering that when he told Rey that they were nowhere near the wreckage, it’s clear that Jakku’s unique terrain, with all of those downed Star Destroyers, was not what he was referring to. He was talking specifically about a weakness in First Order tech.

Here is a life lesson, not one that I expect you to learn from, but because I am your friend I'm going to try to teach it to you anyway.

Facts are circumstantial and time limited, they are data that is open to interpretation/explanation. Conclusion are not facts, they are explanations of facts that should make sense. When there is more than one explanation/conclusion that makes sense, then it is nonsensical to be claiming that one of them is absolute truth and that no other interpretation is possible. That's why the US justice system doesn't let you convict when there is "reasonable doubt."

If you do insist that there is only one possible interpretation/explanation when there are multiple, and like a dog with a bone refuse to let go, or just agree to disagree... then you are a myopic nonsensical argumentative bully. Agreeing to disagree is the socially acceptable way to "not back down" without being a bully, but it seems to be something you're unwilling to do until you have definitively lost an argument.

Given that the surface of jarku is littered with wreckage, flying near the surface is equivalent to flying near the wreckage, is quicker/easier to say and less likekly to result in suicidal behavior. I.e. there are multiple conclusions/explanations/interpretations that make sense here.

In short the only "issue" here is your inability to see/admit the multiple possible interpretations of well most situations, this is a problem with @Tramp Graphics not people with different points of view.