1 hour ago, GrimmyV said:

Don’t care, getting GUNBOAT, I can stop buying expansions after 12 GUNBOATS are mine, all mine! X-wing vs TIE fighter sim format is a go!

I think the X-Wing forum needs a sticky or better, a sub-thread, for OT play and, what will become, X-Wing vs TIE Fighter play.

The thread may become a better place if there was somewhere to go that didn't include the truly OP elements of this game. Fortunately, both of those game play styles would remove the most broken elements of this game quite thoroughly.

2 minutes ago, Gadgetron said:

I think the X-Wing forum needs a sticky or better, a sub-thread, for OT play and, what will become, X-Wing vs TIE Fighter play.

The thread may become a better place if there was somewhere to go that didn't include the truly OP elements of this game. Fortunately, both of those game play styles would remove the most broken elements of this game quite thoroughly.

eh, while the OT is definitely great they weren't well designed in X-wing

probably because the designers never envisioned the game exploding in popularity like it did (before anyone says "but, Star Wars!" you can't seriously believe this is the only licensed SW product, or even one of the few)

point being, if you did OT only you'd probably just run over everyone with Crackswarm. The early wave ships just aren't well balanced at all

4 hours ago, Timathius said:

This thread is probably one of the most toxic things I have seen in a while on this forum, and that’s saying something.

Really? I mean, it certainly had that potential but I think the OP was asked as an honest question and discussion hasn't really been that bad.

I mean, I know in my area, some good friends included that they are playing current meta lists because they prefer winning but think the lists themselves are pretty boring hoping that in the near future things change bacl. Heck, I played a version of Low/Biggs/Miranda last night against a player that I know is better than me (he was running QD, Vader, Sabaac) and I didn't find myself enjoying what turned out to be a win. Of note is that I've never played an archtype like that, never played Miranda before, and haven't actually played in a month.

I think it's fine if you enjoy playing it, great in fact. You're right that there's nothing wrong with it and you give a lot of good options for frustrated players. I, however, don't think there's anything wrong with people being frustrated with the current direction of the game after having invested hundreds, maybe thousands, of dollars into it, especially as I think a very cogent argument could be made that some of the key mechanics that make and made X-wing a fun game for some us are no longer near as valuable or as important part of the game.

22 minutes ago, Gadgetron said:

I think the X-Wing forum needs a sticky or better, a sub-thread, for OT play and, what will become, X-Wing vs TIE Fighter play.

The thread may become a better place if there was somewhere to go that didn't include the truly OP elements of this game. Fortunately, both of those game play styles would remove the most broken elements of this game quite thoroughly.

Don’t forget Shadows of the Empire campaign and Sequel only play! Come on FFG, it ain’t just 100/6 bomb-wing

7 hours ago, Force Majeure said:

So why do you play these lists? Is it fun for you? How so? What is the appeal? dominance? 'Cause right now, it just sucks and I'm not sure it's worth playing any more.

Not against these guys anyways.

7 hours ago, cleardave said:

Going through the motions I guess? Caught in the ol' sunk-cost fallacy of continuing to collect and play a game you no longer like because of the money you already put into it?

6 hours ago, Giledhil said:

Funny, that's all the contrary on my side. Winning using turrets and/or bombers (I used to fly my Warden a lot some time ago) just feels cheap.

6 hours ago, Stay On The Leader said:

I think people play turrets the same way people get addicted to painkillers. It's easier and it makes life feel good.

Really? I mean, it certainly had that potential but I think the OP was asked as an honest question and discussion hasn't really been that bad.

I mean, I know in my area, some good friends included that they are playing current meta lists because they prefer winning but think the lists themselves are pretty boring hoping that in the near future things change bacl. Heck, I played a version of Low/Biggs/Miranda last night against a player that I know is better than me (he was running QD, Vader, Sabaac) and I didn't find myself enjoying what turned out to be a win. Of note is that I've never played an archtype like that, never played Miranda before, and haven't actually played in a month.

I think it's fine if you enjoy playing it, great in fact. You're right that there's nothing wrong with it and you give a lot of good options for frustrated players. I, however, don't think there's anything wrong with people being frustrated with the current direction of the game after having invested hundreds, maybe thousands, of dollars into it, especially as I think a very cogent argument could be made that some of the key mechanics that make and made X-wing a fun game for some us are no longer near as valuable or as important part of the game.

Yea I think it is pretty toxic. Especially the direction that it is coming from. Basically saying that the meta is EZ mode and anyone who plays it isn't having fun and is just there to win. Insulting anyone who likes to play in this meta. All because it doesn't fit your notion of what the game should be. I will be the first to admit that there are things wrong with the game. Frustration with the game is fine, but that is not what this is. This is calling out players who do enjoy play X-Wing in its current form and basically saying they are bad humans for enjoying it.

The point of my post is that you don't have to play in competitive events. There are literally dozens of other formats available at this point. The OP went to a tournament, turns out people at a tournaments play what is currently good. Easy answer? don't play in tournaments. Play in any of the other formats, but don't expect them to just pop up. You may have to do some work to get them going.

1 hour ago, Chumbalaya said:

Winning is fun.

X-Wing is a fun game, right?

Just now, Smutpedler said:

X-Wing is a fun game, right?

Yes

@Timathius you can share your argument without using the word toxic. Both points of view are fine.

5 minutes ago, polmoneys said:

@Timathius you can share your argument without using the word toxic. Both points of view are fine.

The point of view that people who play meta lists are bad people is fine?

... why?

11 minutes ago, Timathius said:

Yea I think it is pretty toxic.

It's not, I don't know what's your standard but this is quite civilised. OP is not the only one who complains about the meta and it is a valid question how much fun playing certain list types is- And though that is of course a pretty subjective thing it is notable that quite a few players who are drawn to turret / bomb lists by the meta find these to be a bit boring to play.

Anyway blaming the players for understanding the rules and building lists accordingly is stupid. If you don't like the way this game goes you can complain towards the developers but not the players.

1 minute ago, Timathius said:

The point of view that people who play meta lists are bad people is fine?

... why?

And where exactly ist that point of view expressed? The OP is expressing the POV that the top meta list might not only NPE to play against but also NPE to play with - which is an argument one can make.

I agree that saying 'players who understand the rules and use that knowledge to build strong lists are bad people' is stupid but it is actually not the tone of the discussion as far as I observed.

To call this thread "toxic" is in and of itself a toxic action and undermines any point the accuser makes. You may now receive a stress token.

@Hannes Solo read the last paragraph in the OP

that is pretty clearly attacking players that use meta lists.

The key is casual games!

58 minutes ago, Timathius said:

Yea I think it is prchoose files... Click to choose files etty toxic.

I guess I don't look at most of those as "toxic." They're not necessarily saying the people choosing to play meta lists are bad people -- in fact some of them are talking about themselves. Most are exactly the reasons that I've heard from players that play them (and don't enjoy them) as I mentioned in my post.

I've had no real drive to play since Store Champ season ended 2+ months ago. I won two SCs with different combinations of Fenn/Jumpmasters and, while it was fun, I still yearn for a more balanced game. Maintaining my moral high ground just means I will be extra salty when I get beaten by cheese, so I just sprinkled my own on.

It may be a long shot, but im really hoping for the big rumored FAQ to drop with GfH. I'm wanna be 5 Khiraxz guy and I hope I can be that guy without turning into a rage demon who joins the race to the bottom again.

2 hours ago, ScummyRebel said:

So, do I play powerful meta lists and enjoy them? Yep. Do I play B team or thematic lists? Yep, and I have fun with them too.

I think that's the key.

You can't control what people are going to bring to a tournament. If you go to a tournament of any size, then I think you have to be prepared to face hardcore meta lists and be okay with that. If you're not okay with that, then I think you need to stop going to tournaments. I may view a small kit tournament as great time to bust out a funsie list, but someone else might really want to win that, so they're bringing Biggs/Miranda/Low.

Now for casual games, I think it depends on the local community. I'm lucky enough to have a pretty laid back community. I've started asking people if they want to go competitive or casual, and list decisions are made based on that. Some people may not be afforded that opportunity. They might want to play more casual lists, but everyone in their area is more into hardcore competitive games. That being the case, I don't know that there's much you can do other than try to find others who enjoy the same play style you do.

It sounds like @Force Majeure is in a community which doesn't fit how he'd like to play. I can understand that frustration.

@Timathius I'm sorry if you took my post as an attack, but I thought I was asking a fair question.

I knew I was going into a TLT/Bomb heavy meta. I knew my odds of winning were very low. I went in with a smile and took it on the chin.

What sucks is that the dudes doing the winning weren't having fun. There were no "Nice shot!", "Dude! You barrel rolled just out of arc!" "Nice maneuvering!" moments which are typical, in my experience. There was none of that. Maybe it was an off night. Maybe there was something bothering them in their lives, so they weren't invested in the game--who knows? The thing is, to a man, they seemed to be doing a chore, like washing their gym socks in a bucket.

They weren't expressing having fun or getting any enjoyment from the experience so why do it? I'm not judging you, I genuinely want to understand why someone will do that. This is a game after all. This is a mystery to me. If it is fun for you, please tell me why. Maybe I can learn to enjoy it as you do.

The main complaints of the current meta being bombs, is not bombs themselves, but the lack of defense against bombs. There is none, zip, zilch. You roll two hits, you suffer two damage (three with Sabine, yay!). Meanwhile, other players plan ahead, get their position perfect, predict the other players move, gets a focus and TL and rolls three hits and two get evaded, then Lowrick adds an evade or some chump with DTF takes the other hit, so the ship you targeted takes 0 damage.

Point being, there NEEDS to be defense against bombs. Especially when infinite bombs are here. Some way to avoid damage through like 1 pt discard upgrade at least. Auto bomb damage is too powerful not to have a counter of some kind.

Same with reinforce, as there is no Palob ability to steal that reinforce token, or Wes or Teroch who can discard it. Reinforce has no counter, and that makes it very powerful. It's a guarantee in every match you play, in game of RNG, without any fear of that token being stripped. Just like bombs. Why not take bombs? When I know there is no ship in the game that can counter them? My damage is good if I get ya. You cant evade nothin.

Everything needs to have some type of counter, that is called "balance".

All that said, I am having a great time in this meta. Im not a bomber and have never really flown Miranda except a few times here and there. I love the scurrg and use the PS1 all the time now. One of those with TLT and a Cruise Missile/or bomblet is 33pts of trouble for my opponent to try and deal with.

Im mainly an imp player and we have everything to deal with anything in the meta, just not something to deal with everything in the meta. Basically, I can beat Nym/Miranda but then lose to FSR. Or beat FSR and lose to Miranda/Nym. That is the imp life at the moment and why tournaments are not looking good for them. The only guarantee they had was Palp and he is nerfed, so now its all RNG in a GUARANTEE world

EDIT: And to the OP, guarantees in a game of RNG takes the edge off, hence why they may seem calm as hindu cows, cause it has turned into a game of chess for them instead of craps. People still have fun playing chess, they just dont "ooh and aww" cause they knew it was coming so nothing to get excited about.

Has anyone thought that maybe some of the meta lists are just fun to play?

Like maybe the OP’s opponent didn’t enjoy playing nym Miranda, but others might.

For instance, triple jump masters is actually fun. Not just because it’s a good list for winning, but actually *fun*, because having a good dial is fun.

7 minutes ago, Force Majeure said:

@Timathius I'm sorry if you took my post as an attack, but I thought I was asking a fair question.

I knew I was going into a TLT/Bomb heavy meta. I knew my odds of winning were very low. I went in with a smile and took it on the chin.

What sucks is that the dudes doing the winning weren't having fun. There were no "Nice shot!", "Dude! You barrel rolled just out of arc!" "Nice maneuvering!" moments which are typical, in my experience. There was none of that. Maybe it was an off night. Maybe there was something bothering them in their lives, so they weren't invested in the game--who knows? The thing is, to a man, they seemed to be doing a chore, like washing their gym socks in a bucket.

They weren't expressing having fun or getting any enjoyment from the experience so why do it? I'm not judging you, I genuinely want to understand why someone will do that. This is a game after all. This is a mystery to me. If it is fun for you, please tell me why. Maybe I can learn to enjoy it as you do.

My last game in a tournament was against Miranda nym and I was flying Miranda Biggs lowhrick. We had a blast and were joking the whole time (Though his previous opponent stole most of the jokes!). I played a mirror the round before that and had a great time and on and on.

So I get that some people don’t have fun in this meta. But that doesn’t mean that people who do are outlandish, doing it as a chore, addicted to ez mode, cheap or whatever else. There have always been lists that were not fun to play against. I hated having to pretend to chase soontir for 45 minutes, but I didn’t blame the person for doing it. This is a game, it’s fun to play games. The people are fun. I’m sure in person I would like and have a great time with every single one of you.

8 hours ago, Force Majeure said:

Serious question. For those of you that play Nym, TLTs, Kylo crew, Sabine Crew, Lowhhrick/Biggs, Kanan/Biggs, etc., etc. it is fun? Maybe I don't get it.

Alright, working down the list.

Nym: I do not. Bombing doesn't interest me, and I haven't got a copy of the Scrugg. Sad, I do quite like the model.

TLT: Yes, I use this. Why? Because I like flying HWKs and want them to actually be worth a darn. Attack Shuttles too. I keep hearing people complain that it's a guarantied two damage, but take my word for it, it ain't. Consistency =/= guarantee.

Kylo Crew: Not interested, though considering the Empire's position, I don't blame people who do use it.

Sabine Crew: Not a Bomber. Now, Sabine pilot...

Lowhhrick/Biggs: Not my taste. Haven't even flown the Auzzie yet, but I'm looking forward to Wullf.

Kanan/Biggs: A bit more interesting for me than Lowy/Biggs, but still not my taste.

8 hours ago, Force Majeure said:

So why do you play these lists? Is it fun for you? How so? What is the appeal? dominance? 'Cause right now, it just sucks and I'm not sure it's worth playing any more.

Not against these guys anyways.

You are forgetting about nostalgia and aesthetics. Nym was a primary character in the Starfighter series, and while I only played co-op Jedi Starfighter, I still look back on Nym with some fondness. And like I said, I like how the Scrugg looks. The cards you are speaking about represent characters and creatures genuinely liked by people.

Can you honestly tell me that you don't want to kit out your favorite pilot with good upgrades to see them succeed? Yes, there are upgrades that don't match taste or play style, but there are others that are considered meta that can fit in to what you want perfectly. Case in point, I fly Palobattanni from time to time. Why? Because I love Fangs, Lancers, and HWKs! This is a list that I can run all three and not at some crippled form of one or all of them. Going for optimal builds isn't just about winning. I want the ships and characters I love to feel as good as I feel they should. There have been countless complaints that you can't do that with characters like Luke and Wedge. When playing, I don't mind losing as long as I felt that I did my best and I gave my opponent a run for their money.

Now, yes. There are jerks who do play just for the wins, just for the dominance. But not everyone who plays with the cards you mentioned are like that. Some just want to play the characters and style they genuinely love.

10 minutes ago, Tlfj200 said:

Has anyone thought that maybe some of the meta lists are just fun to play?

Like maybe the OP’s opponent didn’t enjoy playing nym Miranda, but others might.

For instance, triple jump masters is actually fun. Not just because it’s a good list for winning, but actually *fun*, because having a good dial is fun.

Also commonly overlooked fact....from the few matches I have watched....triple Jumpmasters seem to generally do better when their forward arc is actually pointing at the opponent.

4 minutes ago, Tlfj200 said:

Has anyone thought that maybe some of the meta lists are just fun to play?

Like maybe the OP’s opponent didn’t enjoy playing nym Miranda, but others might.

For instance, triple jump masters is actually fun. Not just because it’s a good list for winning, but actually *fun*, because having a good dial is fun.

Bah! You kids today and your "fun" dials! Back in my day, we didn't have options! Every dial was just a 1-straight, and it was red! And the field was just one giant obstacle, that you'd hit again and again, every single turn! Both sides would get destroyed, so there were never any winners in our games; only losers! ...and we liked it that way! It built character and taught us valuable life lessons!

The problem with your generation is that they don't appreciate how good things are for them. You have your options and your erratas, and it's made you soft and spoiled! It all comes from listening to that no-good, cantina-style space jazz, I shouldn't wonder!

I honestly don't mind playing against turrets and bombs, or against them, with one caveat- that I'm flying something with turrets as well.

And that's where the issue lies. Not that turrets are utterly unfun. It's that they make something else utterly unfun against them.