Gallows said:

So...if the bestiary listed Trolls at 30 Wounds instead of 16, would you feel it was too "limiting"? I'm not sure whether I understand how design philosophy as you describe it is applicable in this example.

Well hopefully the upcoming GM Toolkit will soothe this bitterness: it is supposed to include rules to make bad guys meaner and tougher.

If that's not good enough, stick with D&D with its rigorous system of ECL or CR or whatever.

Necrozius said:

Hopefully nobody's feeling too bitter about the stats of a Troll in v3. It's just a single monster in a single RPG, after all.

Herr Arnulfe said:

No they would be too strong for beginning characters. I see all the monsters in the bestiary as rank 1 no advances.

Herr Arnulfe said:

There are people in this thread arguing that the monsters in the bestiary should be much stronger.

According to them, a GM shouldn't have to pull strings to adapt a monster's stats to fit their campaign.

LeBlanc13 said:

Could you name me one rpg you've had where you've never had to tweak the rules in some way? I see it as the same difference myself.

Necrozius said:

Doesn't necessarily mean they're bitter though, or even balance-fetishists (it might, however, mean they're borderline Obsessive-Compulsive with Histrionic tendencies ).

But nah, I imagine they're probably just dudes talking about stuff they like/dislike on the internet. I certainly haven't seen any signs of bitterness in this thread (at least not from the critics anyway).

Juju beans. They're bitter.

Rat Catcher said:

D&D 4e and 3.5....

There were enough rules in those games that I never wanted to add another or modify them. Frankly, there was no need.

Herr Arnulfe said:

Spot on! No bitterness. Just gripes. I am still going to give the game a fair shake as soon as I have more material and the time to do it.

I play nicey nice on the forums most of the time.

I think it was addressed in other topics: doesn't melee-monster-Slayer have it's stats tweaked so much, that any willpower test will make him go nuts?

You are focusing too much on the Troll: they kill him - though luck, let them become a Trollslaying Mercenary Party for Hiring, then surprise them with Ghoul or five in the troll cave. It's not like there are only Trolls out there.

Also a combat heavy party is lacking power in other areas for sure.

And WFRP is not only about slaying critters, for that I would choose WFB.

D.

LeBlanc13 said:

This is not a good thing

Rat Catcher said:

I agree, which is why I don't play them anymore. DH and WFRP2 are my games of choice now.

I also have to point out that the Shadowrun bestiary was pretty cool run unmodified, but you had a contacts book that allowed you to modify templates to meet your needs. Actually, the Shadowrun system had the best balance in my opinion. Their character creation system was broken, but the monsters were challenging and they gave you a good base for creating NPCs.

In a way it was.

It covered EVERYTHING with a rule so there weren't ambiguities within the system. GMs were just as free to take and leave what they wanted from that system just like they do with this system.

It may have not been a great system (I HATE the hit point system), but it worked on the comprehensive level.

keltheos said:

I also have to admit that I loved using a system based solely on rolling exploding d6's.

The condition tracks were kind of weak, but they still worked okay.

Actually, why not treat the troll as henchman and scale up based on party? And instead tell the player that the troll is a henchman group, just say there is a single troll there.

For example, we have a party of 3 character. The troll will have 3 X Toughness wound and 2 extra fortune die. Add on it's A/C/E dice, it will make a single formidable troll, and you can even reduce the fortune dice as the troll suffer wound equal to his Toughness.

This is complete within rule given with ToA.

Actually, the more I think about this, the more I like it. It will make the major villain easy to scale based on party member. The only potential downside is when there are too many party member, the troll may have too much wound.

Qingtian said:

Divide the party in half rounded down to come up with your multiplier, rather than making it number of players x stats.

LeBlanc,

I have been reading this thread over the last 3 days or so. . . and I hope I don't repeat something someone else has already said.

I believe you made mention that you don't think you should have to adjust monster difficulty levels and that there were no guidelines on how to increase monster toughness. First, I think others have made good points about the fact that there is so much variety in party make up that it is not unreasonable to expect some tweaking of monster stats. As for guidelines for increasing or decreasing difficulty, they are found at the end of page 43 and on page 44 of the ToA. It seems FFG has fully anticipated a broad range of party make up, and has provided suggestions for finding your particular party difficulty. I would say there are even more adjustments you can make as well. . . like adding to wounds, A/C/E, toughness, etc.

I truly can appreciate your desire to not need to make adjustments and not want to spend too much time prepping for the game. But it does seem like this system is rather easy to make adjustments even on the fly (once familiar with the system). I have not tried it yet, but I will be running an adventure this Saturday. Should be fun.

I'd like to know what you think after you run a game or two.

Cheers.

oshfarms said:

Thanks for the advice and will do. I'll definitely post my thoughts after running a session or two.

If all else fails: stoats riding zoats.

A deadly combination, if there ever was one.

[Note, this post is a bit long. Sorry!]

Ok, I did a few (very few) simple test combats.

I used the Trollslayer out of the Emporer's Decree event. He's a pretty 'tough' min-maxed Trollslayer.
St 5 and To 5, and Ag 3. Using an unmodified DoubleStrike action, meaning 0 recharge so it can be used every round (I've house ruled it to be a 2 recharge, as I believe only Basic actions, or very simple ones, should be 0 recharge). I'll list info for both a River Troll, and a Stone Troll for comparisons, since they are pretty similar.

I kept the same order of actions, for the most part.
Slayer strategy:
The Slayer spams Double Strike, of course. He will use his active defenses early, since he can't afford to get hit too many times. He only has a 2 WP, therefore can't afford any Stress, so will only move his Stance up by 1 per turn. Fortune points will be saved until necessary.

Troll strategy:
The Troll leads off with Devasating Swing, followed by Vomit, followed by Rend Flesh, and then repeat if necessary. He will use an A die to add to his Initiative, and also use A dice primarily for Defense until the Slayer can be 'killed' with an attack. I do this, because I know that the Troll has <BBBBBB>®[W] guaranteed every round, plus 2 rounds of adding an expertise die, so hitting shouldn't normally be a problem. I figure it will probably be better to mitigate/slow the damage that the Slayer does. We'll see how that goes.

I used Sunatet's dice roller.

==============================================
COMBAT #1

Init:
Troll <B>®[W] => 2x successes
Slayer <BBB> => 1x success
Troll goes first.

Troll Round 1:
Devastating Swing, Slayer parries, Troll adds Expertise die
<BBBBBB>®[W][Y][bBB]<P> => 3x successes and 2x boons
Attack does 12 damage, +1 critical, and staggers the Slayer (he counts as 1 step closer to neutral stance, and active defenses add 1 to recharge)
Slayer takes 12-5-1= 6 wounds.
Critical drawn is 'Hideous Injury', where criticals are +1 severity. Not too damaging for this combat.
+1 fatigue to Slayer

Slayer Round 1:
Double Strike, Troll parries, Slayer is at R1 stance (although due to staggered only counts at neutral)
<BBBBB>[Y][bB]<P> => 1x success, 3 boons
Attack does 12 damage.
R.Troll takes 12-7=5 wounds.
S.Troll takes 12-9=3 wounds.

Results of Round 1:
Slayer is at 6/15 wounds, is Staggered, has a Hideous Injury critical, +1 fatigue
R.Troll is at 5/19 wounds
S.Troll is at 3/18 wounds

Troll Round 2:
Troll Vomit, Slayer dodges, Troll adds expertise die
<BBBBBB>®[Y][bB]<P> => 3x successes
Attack does 12 damage, +1 critical. Also causes a Discipline check (2d) or get an insanity. With only a 2 WP, the slayer decides to throw 2 of his 3 fortune dice to prevent it.. <BB>[WW]<PP> => Failure with 1 boon left.
Insanity drawn is Fragile Nerves. added to Discipline, Intimidation, and Ld tests. Not too scary, although should Troll Vomit come again, it will make it rough.
Slayer uses Shrug-it-off.
Slayer suffers 12-5-1-2=4 wounds.
Critical drawn is "Wrenched Back", Melee attacks gain +1 fatigue on a single Bane result. Could be dangerous.
Troll regenerates a wound.

Slayer Round 2:
Double Strike, Troll has only the dodge defense so instead uses two A die to add to his Defense, Slayer is at R2
<BBBB>®[Y][bBB]<P> => Misses with 2x boons. Removes a fatigue

Results of Round 2:
Slayer is at 10/15 wounds, is Staggered, has a Hideous Injury critical, a Wrenched Back critical, and Fragile Nerves Insanity.
R.Troll is at 4/19 wounds
S.Troll is at 2/18 wounds

Troll Round 3:
Rend Flesh. Slayer cannot parry due to staggered condition. Troll, sensing his opponent is almost dead, adds all his remaining A pool dice to the attack.
<BBBBBB>®[WWW]<P> => 5x successes, 2x banes
Attack does 12 damage, +2 fatigue to Slayer. Troll takes 1 wound b/c of banes.
Slayer suffers 12-5-1=6 wounds. Slayer goes unconscious due to wounds.
Troll regenerates

Final Results Combat 1:
Slayer is at 16/15 wounds, is Staggered, has a Hideous Injury critical, a Wrenched Back critical, and Fragile Nerves Insanity.
R.Troll is at 3/19 wounds
S.Troll is at 1/18 wounds

=========================================
COMBAT #2

Init:
Troll <B>®[W] => 3x successes
Slayer <BBB> => 1x success
Troll goes first.

Troll Round 1:
Devastating Swing, Slayer parries, Troll adds Expertise die
<BBBBBB>®[W][Y][bBB]<P> => 1x successes and 3x boons
Attack does 12 damage and staggers the Slayer, +1 fatigue to Slayer
Slayer takes 12-5-1= 6 wounds.

Slayer Round 1:
Double Strike, Troll parries, Slayer is at R1 stance (although due to staggered only counts at neutral)
<BBBBB>[Y][bB]<P> => miss with 3 boons

Results of Round 1:
Slayer is at 6/15 wounds, and is Staggered, +1 fatigue
R.Troll is at 0/19 wounds
S.Troll is at 0/18 wounds

Troll Round 2:
Troll Vomit, Slayer dodges, Troll adds expertise die
<BBBBBB>®[Y][bB]<P> => 5x successes and 1x boon
Attack does 13 damage, +1 critical. Also causes a Discipline check (2d) or get an insanity. With only a 2 WP, the slayer decides to throw all 3 of his 3 fortune dice to prevent it.. <BB>[WWW]<PP> => Failure with 2 boons.
Insanity drawn is Catatonia. At the end of the Slayer's every turn, move his stance 2 spaces closer to neutral. OWW!
Slayer uses Shrug-it-off.
Slayer suffers 12-5-1-2=4 wounds.
Critical drawn is "Ruptured Spleen", which counts as +1 fatigue.

Slayer Round 2:
Double Strike, Troll has only the parry defense so instead uses two A die to add to his Defense, Slayer takes a gamble and suffers a stress to move his stance to R3 for this one round.
<BBB>(RR)[Y][bBB]<P> => Misses with 2x boons. He removes the stress he just gained.
Stance moves from R3 to R1.

Results of Round 2:
Slayer is at 10/15 wounds, is Staggered, has a Ruptured Spleen critical, and Catatonia Insanity. +1 fatigue
R.Troll is at 0/19 wounds
S.Troll is at 0/18 wounds

Troll Round 3:
Rend Flesh. Slayer has no active defenses to use. Troll, sensing his opponent is almost dead, adds all his remaining A pool dice to the attack.
<BBBBBB>®[WWW]<P> => 3x successes, 2x boons
Attack does 12 damage, +3 fatigue to Slayer.
Slayer suffers 12-5-1=6 wounds. Slayer goes unconscious due to wounds.
Troll regenerates

Final Results Combat 1:
Slayer is at 16/15 wounds, is Staggered, has a Hideous Injury critical, a Wrenched Back critical, and Fragile Nerves Insanity. +4 fatigue
R.Troll is at 0/19 wounds
S.Troll is at 0/18 wounds

============================================
COMBAT #3

Init:
Troll <B>®[W] => 3x successes
Slayer <BBB> => 2x success
Troll goes first.

Troll Round 1:
Devastating Swing, Slayer parries, Troll adds Expertise die
<BBBBBB>®[W][Y][bBB]<P> => miss w/ 4 boons

Slayer Round 1:
Double Strike, Troll parries, Slayer is at R1 stance
<BBBBB>[Y][bB]<P> => 2x successes, 1x bane
Attack does 15.
R.Troll suffers 15-7= 8 wounds
S.Troll suffers 15-9= 6 wounds.

Results of Round 1:
Slayer is at 0/15 wounds
R.Troll is at 8/19 wounds
S.Troll is at 6/18 wounds

Troll Round 2:
Devastating Swing, Slayer dodges, Troll adds expertise die
<BBBBBB>®[Y][bB]<P> => 2x successes, 3 boons, Comet
Attack does 12 damage and staggers the Slayer, +1 fatigue to Slayer, comet used for Critical
Slayer takes 12-5-1= 6 wounds.
Critical is 'Short of Breath'. +1 fatigue for each active defense used. Ouch.
Troll regenerates wound

Slayer Round 2:
Double Strike, Troll has only the parry defense so instead one A die to add to his Defense, Slayer is at R2
<BBB>®[Y][bB]<P> => 1x success.
Attack does 10 damage
R.Troll suffers 10-7= 3 wounds
S.Troll suffers 10-9= 1 wound.

Results of Round 2:
Slayer is at 6/15 wounds, is Staggered, has a Short of Breath critical. +1 fatigue
R.Troll is at 10/19 wounds
S.Troll is at 6/18 wounds

Troll Round 3:
Troll Vomit, Slayer parries, Troll adds A pool die
<BBBBBB>®[WW][bBB]<P> => 2x successes and 3x banes
Attack does 12 damage, +1 critical. Also causes a Discipline check (2d) or get an insanity. With only a 2 WP, the slayer decides to throw all 3 of his 3 fortune dice to prevent it.. <BB>[WWW]<PP> => Success, but gains +1 stress and has a chaos star.
Slayer uses Shrug-it-off.
Slayer suffers 12-5-1-2=4 wounds.
Critical is Minor Trauma, causing to To checks.
slayer suffers 1 fatigue for parrying, b/c of Short of Breath critical
Troll suffers 1 wound from banes.
Troll regenerates 1 wound

Slayer Round 3:
Double Strike, Troll parries, Slayer is at R3
<BBB>(RR)[Y][bB]<P> => Miss w/4x boons.
Slayer removes stress.

Results Round 3:
Slayer is at 10/15 wounds, is Staggered, has a Short of Breath critical. +1 fatigue
R.Troll is at 9/19 wounds
S.Troll is at 5/18 wounds

Troll Round 4:
Rend Flesh. Slayer dodges. Troll, sensing his opponent is almost dead, adds all his remaining A pool dice to the attack.
<BBBBBB>®[WWW]<P> => Miss with everything countering each other
Troll regenerates

Slayer Round 4:
Double Strike, Troll parries, Slayer is at R3
<BBB>(RR)[Y]<P> => 1x success.
Attack does 10 damage
R.Troll suffers 10-7= 3 wounds
S.Troll suffers 10-9= 1 wound.

Results Round 4:
Slayer is at 10/15 wounds, is Staggered, has a Short of Breath critical. +1 fatigue
R.Troll is at 11/19 wounds
S.Troll is at 5/18 wounds

Troll Round 5:
Devastating Swing, Slayer has no defenses to use
<BBBBBB>®[W][bB]<P> => 1x success, 1x boons
Attack does 12 damage and staggers the Slayer, +1 fatigue to Slayer
Slayer takes 12-5-1= 6 wounds. Slayer is unconscious
Troll regenerates wound

Final Results Combat 3:
Slayer is at 16/15 wounds, is Staggered, has a Minor Trauma critical, +1 fatigue
R.Troll is at 10/19 wounds
S.Troll is at 4/18 wounds

===================================

An interesting thing to note is that the R1 the Troll gets for Init is *very* helpful to get a higher initiative.

Some notes after seeing the combats. *If* the Slayer wins initiative, and *if* the Slayer can hit every round, and *if* the Slayer gets at least 2 successes (using Double Strike) then he could 'kill' the River Troll in 3 rounds.
Round 1 troll takes 8 wounds, regen 1, so ends 7/19
Round 2 troll takes 8 wounds, regen 1, so ends 14/19
Round 3 troll takes 8 wounds, regen 1, so ends 21/19

The Stone Troll takes a little bit longer, due to the additional Soak.
Round 1 troll takes 6 wounds, regen 1, so ends 5/18
Round 2 troll takes 6 wounds, regen 1, so ends 10/18
Round 3 troll takes 6 wounds, regen 1, so ends 15/18
Round 4 troll takes 6 wounds, regen 1, so ends 20/18

This assumes near maximum damage from Double Strike. Even maximum damage won't kill the troll quicker than 3 rounds. The Slayer will be pretty scarred afterwards, though, with criticals and probably an insanity.

The troll, assuming at least 1 success each attack (which quite likely) will knock out the Slayer in 3 rounds.

Anyone less tough than the Slayer will go down faster, usually in just 2 rounds. This is just using the Troll actions, and not giving the Troll access to Double Strike or Troll-Feller Strike, for example. A single miss on the part of the Slayer, or even a hit that doesn't do the 15 damage, puts the Slayer well behind the curve.

Granted, this post only has a small sample of combats. But it does indicate a trend. A solo rank 1 Trollslayer, even min-maxed (other than not having a specialization die yet), has to be extremely lucky to win one on one versus a single Troll. A group of 3 or 4 combat PCs would have an easier time, but it's still likely that at least 1 of them will be unconscious before the Troll goes down (assuming the GM has the Troll pick on the weakest). Against a group of non-combat PCs, with a max of 4 St and To, and more liekly 3's, will have a much tougher time.

Food for thought. If I get some time, I might run some test combats this weekend with the Rank 2 PCs from my group against a single Troll, and see how they might fare.

Wow, that looks like it was a lot of work to generate, Dvang. Very interesting. Thanks!

I'm a bit surprised how initiative played out, especially how much of an impact the R1 had. Maybe this whole thread was a moot point? lol

Oh, I forgot to spend an A dice to add to Troll's Initiative during the fight (if it's even possible) . Thanks dvang for reminding me that.

However, you made lot of mistakes:

COMBAT #1

1) Devastating Swing has a basic difficulty of 1 <P> thus a Troll's dice pool should look like this: <BBBBBB>®[W][Y][bB]<PP>.

The Troll's dice pool against my Player might look like this: <BBBBBB>®[W][Y][bB]<PPP> becouse he would use Improved Parry and Basic Dodge action cards.

2) Dwarf has got a special racial ability which provide him an addicional 1 [W] against any target that has wounded him. You seem to forgot about it.

3) Troll Vomit. <BBBBB>®[Y][BBB]<P> since Troll's TO is 6 not 7. A black dice missed.

4) Slayer's Discipline check: <B>(R)[WW]<PP> since he's at 1 ®.

Why Slayer used a Shrug-it-off action against 2nd attack, not 1st?

5) Dodge is only for characters with AG 3+! Troll has got only AG 2.

Why Slayer didn't use his last fortune point to strengthen his attack in the 2nd round?

...

And so on. I don't want to look for more errors.

As you can see, too many mistakes.

...

Now imagine that Troll Slayer has got 2 EXP points and he spend them to require a specialisation for weapons and to purchase a fortune die for ST. Futhermore, let us assume that the Player created Troll Slayer, so... needless to say what could happen.

Troll Slayer is able to kill Troll quicker than 3 rounds with 15 damage per round (max. is 17 damage, plus crits from boons), moreover, Troll Slayer needs only to 2 successes to do it which is easy with a high success rate in this edition. Troll can soak only 7 damage per hit so you can guess what I would like to say...

Troll is able to kill Troll Slayer with 3 succesful hits and vice versa.

Definitely, looks like that is why most troll slayers die shortly after taking that name

Thanks for compiling that!

I have rolled 100 dice 3 times for Troll's Initiative. This is what I got:

1) Success: 153 (which means 1.5 success per roll), Boon: 66, Exhaustion: 20

2) Success: 146, Boon: 43, Exhaustion: 19

3) Success: 154, Boon: 67, Exhaustion 16