4 hours ago, Daigotsu Steve said:

Honestly, he basically ruined himself for me the moment he said

" Is the Legend of the Five Rings cultural appropriation?

The easy answer, simply, is “Yes.”

Does my head in when people present complicated views as simply a matter of fact and that disagreeing with them makes you immediately wrong or dense or whatever.

Also, card games are a product of western culture. Is every Japanese card game guilty of cultural appropriation? Well all know the answer to that though, don't we? These people don't see the west as *having* a culture, they see it AS culture. Christ.

From Wikipedia: Cultural appropriation is the adoption or use of the elements of one culture by members of another culture.

L5R is cultural appropriation, by definition. I am honestly not sure how anyone could argue that it is not.

In the OP article, in literally the next sentence, the author states that cultural appropriation is not always a bad thing, and in this case it is (mostly) fine.

I would argue that FFG is actually doing a better job with it than AEG ever did. The author of the article made the same point.

How many decades of anime, manga, Asian martial arts, Nintendo products, samurai flicks, ect. Until this isn't an issue? The culture is just blended?

I'm not even sure to the extent Japan borrows from the west. As a blonde I'm tickled with how many japanese cartoon characters share my hair color. Helped me identify with Naruto as a Japanese magic ninja.

13 hours ago, Brekekekiwi said:

Good article. Addressed a lot of the points that made me very wary of getting involved with the game. Explains the (I would have thought obvious) issues clearly.

Yeah, same, it was a good read. More than could be said about a lot of the responses, though - fingers crossed this is just protective nerd rage from a minority of die-hards.

As an Englishman with ancestors who fought and died due to a vicious campaign launched against a civilian population, can I start a pointless conversation/get sweeties whenever someone insensitively uses the term "Blitz" in their card games?

3 minutes ago, Daigotsu Steve said:

As an Englishman with ancestors who fought and died due to a vicious campaign launched against a civilian population, can I start a pointless conversation/get sweeties whenever someone insensitively uses the term "Blitz" in their card games?

I mean, I get from your phrasing that you're being a condescending knob about it and everything, but if you think it hasn't been used appropriately then why not?

43 minutes ago, Yogo Gohei said:

From Wikipedia: Cultural appropriation is the adoption or use of the elements of one culture by members of another culture.

L5R is cultural appropriation, by definition. I am honestly not sure how anyone could argue that it is not.

I feel like a lot of the pushback with the term is that the "appropriation" half of the term isn't really true to the definition. For example, if the government appropriated the land your house built on, you no longer have access to the land or what was built on it. The land transferred ownership, and the word appropriation has implied meaning about the manner in which transfer occurred.

When we go from that, to Cultural Appropriation, it's hard to even formulate an applicable example. I would have to imagine some upper class people living in the Victorian age adopting a foreign style of jewelry or a dance, and then creating laws to ban the practices among their root cultures. That would satisfy the more common understanding of the word Appropriation, and I think everyone can agree that such an act would be morally or ethically reprehensible. So we're back to the modern definition of Cultural Appropriation, where it's merely an adoption of elements of one culture by members of another cultures. Westerners drinking tea might fit this broad definition, which is why I think it's a terrible definition.

Finally, what exactly makes "...he adoption or use of the elements of one culture by members of another culture" wrong? This is a genuine question because I've literally never seen an argument satisfactorily laid out. I've certainly read a lot of opinion pieces referencing that it's wrong, but the notion is only backed up by poorly thought out examples to physical property (despite culture being an idea) or relying on some childish logic (ex: you didn't make it up and you're not genetically similar enough to people who did make it up).

1 hour ago, Yogo Gohei said:

From Wikipedia: Cultural appropriation is the adoption or use of the elements of one culture by members of another culture.

L5R is cultural appropriation, by definition. I am honestly not sure how anyone could argue that it is not.

In the OP article, in literally the next sentence, the author states that cultural appropriation is not always a bad thing, and in this case it is (mostly) fine.

I would argue that FFG is actually doing a better job with it than AEG ever did. The author of the article made the same point.

Meh. He probably goes into more nuance then most about why exactly his brand of finger pointing is cleverer then someone elses(fiver says he points out that he's a minority), but I think it's a fair cop at this point that 'cultural appropriation' is a term thoroughly spoiled by special snowflakes and Tumblrites, and to pretend it isn't is being intellectually dishonest on the matter. Then again, I've been having people throw the Dictionary Definition of Feminism at me like it means anything for about a decade now, so with everyone doing their best lawyer impressions everywhere why not get on it?

Quote

I mean, I get from your phrasing that you're being a condescending knob about it and everything, but if you think it hasn't been used appropriately then why not?

Because I'm not a complete tool. Like most of the normal people who never seriously complain about that stuff. Also because I'm not trying to get hits on my blog.

Last night was not a good night to try. Wifey had a really difficult day and was clearly not in the mood for jokes 'n pokes.

1 hour ago, Yogo Gohei said:

From Wikipedia: Cultural appropriation is the adoption or use of the elements of one culture by members of another culture.

L5R is cultural appropriation, by definition. I am honestly not sure how anyone could argue that it is not.

In the OP article, in literally the next sentence, the author states that cultural appropriation is not always a bad thing, and in this case it is (mostly) fine.

I would argue that FFG is actually doing a better job with it than AEG ever did. The author of the article made the same point.

When referring to literal definitions it's best to refer to a definitive source.

Because Wikipedia doesn't know what the word "appropriate" means.

From Merriam-Webster:

Quote

Definition of appropriate

appropriated; appropriating

transitive verb

1:to take exclusive possession of :annex

• No one should appropriate a common benefit.

2:to set apart for or assign to a particular purpose or use

• appropriate money for a research program

3:to take or make use of without authority or right

• natural habitats that have been appropriated for human use

Cultural appropriation doesn't exist. It's a myth. Every culture borrows from every other culture it comes into contact with. And this is even more ironic since we're talking specifically about Japanese culture, given their history of xenophobia and isolationism to save themselves from the influence of other cultures. It's was that very idea of cultural superiority, and isolation from other ideas and traditions, that fed into the atrocities they'd visit upon their neighbors in the years leading into World War 2.

Cultures that do not exchange between one another are cultures that are hostile to one another because they see nothing of value in those people.

14 minutes ago, player2636234 said:

Finally, what exactly makes "...he adoption or use of the elements of one culture by members of another culture" wrong? This is a genuine question because I've literally never seen an argument satisfactorily laid out. I've certainly read a lot of opinion pieces referencing that it's wrong, but the notion is only backed up by poorly thought out examples to physical property (despite culture being an idea) or relying on some childish logic (ex: you didn't make it up and you're not genetically similar enough to people who did make it up).

Generally it isn't, but normally when I see it as an outright negative term it's because a dominant culture takes aspects of a minority culture and treats it with ignorance or disrespect in some way or form, normalising that behaviour it in the process.

I've also seen it referred to as a part of Orientalism, which has a few different uses but generally is best described as 'make another culture seem really weird by only framing it as all strange and mystical'. Like an inverse Noble Savage trope.

Another common one I see is that it's a sign of hypocrisy if you're willing to take on aspects of a culture, but then don't take any care or notice of where you took it from. I often see this one when people take on afro-stylings, but are then completely indifferent to problems that people from that culture face.

So yeah, that's just a few of examples I can think of. Generally it's just a byword for being disrespectful though. I haven't really seen anyone get upset if someone appropriates a part of their culture in a considered, researched and respectful way.

14 minutes ago, __underscore__ said:

Another common one I see is that it's a sign of hypocrisy if you're willing to take on aspects of a culture, but then don't take any care or notice of where you took it from. I often see this one when people take on afro-stylings, but are then completely indifferent to problems that people from that culture.

Eh? How do you know what someone is truly indifferent to? My uncle in law has been nuts deep in Rastafarian culture for over 30 years. Reggae DJ, respected member of the community, smokes mad amounts (toothpaste for the soul he calls it), wears the coloured cap and has dreads he's never cut. But to an observer, and a bell, he might well just be someone "appropriating culture". But how do you judge who is allowed access to these things without being labelled and who isn't?

And what on gods earth gives someone the right to do that?

34 minutes ago, selderane said:

In this context, to appropriate is to take possession of a thing exclusively. That means to appropriate a culture you literally steal it so no one else can use it.

A partial disagreement. I suspect that in this context, they intend 'appropriate' to follow the third, rather than first, definition: "to take or make use of without authority or right." In this case, the fact that the usage is not exclusive is irrelevant.

However, and here we get into the reason it's only a partial disagreement, and mostly agreement, is that there's no real way to figure out who has the 'authority or right' to grant use of cultural items. Let's go with an example that is non-controversial today, but at one time was, and that is martial arts. Back in the 60's, dojos would routinely refuse to teach non-Orientals. Bruce Lee was a groundbreaker in this arena - his famous (OK, probably apocryphal) statement "You want to learn, I want to teach. What's the problem?" In any event, he absolutely did teach non-Orientals, and today that's taken for granted. Frankly, I think we're all better off for such things.

Anyway, not to put too fine a point on it, but cultures are not monolithic objects. They're made up of people. People being people, they'll have different opinions, and some will want to share their ideas and practices while other won't. The rhetoric of cultural appropriation says the latter group wins, and I think that's a pretty bad practice.

8 minutes ago, Daigotsu Steve said:

Eh? How do you know what someone is truly indifferent to? My uncle in law has been nuts deep in Rastafarian culture for over 30 years. Reggae DJ, respected member of the community, smokes mad amounts (toothpaste for the soul he calls it), wears the coloured cap and has dreads he's never cut. But to an observer, and a bell, he might well just be someone "appropriating culture". But how do you judge who is allowed access to these things without being labelled and who isn't?

And what on gods earth gives someone the right to do that?

I mean, you have a lot of people getting angry (well, 'internet angry') right here because someone is questioning an aspect of their hobby. You see it all over the place - disrespect a part of someone's identity and you're going to get judged for that. There's no rights involved there, just part and parcel of humans being a social animal and caring about things.

fwiw, I don't have a answer for you on the first part. I'm not a fan of snap judgements either.

While I haven't been part of the L5R community for very long, what I have observed in my time here is that the players I've interacted with in person and online are, for the most part, at least sensitive towards Japanese culture. Many seem to have a healthy respect for it, and an interest extending beyond the boundaries of Rokugan (I mean, how many pages did we argue about the curvature of "proper" katanas?). I understand the concerns about cultural appropriation, and I can definitely appreciate how those concerns can be magnified for those on the outside looking in. And clearly, there are some concerns that are beyond the ken of white Westerners like myself, such as the fact that "Banzai!" can make some individuals of Asian descent uncomfortable or possibly even offended because of its use by a group who persecuted their families just a few generations ago. (On a side note, I think an argument can be made that this particular issue is in fact due to the Japanese military "appropriating" what may have been an otherwise benign element of their own nation's culture.)

The positive take away we *should* have from all of this is, agree with it or not, we are capable of having a (mostly) civil discussion about these issues. Keeping an open conversation can only help promote understanding on both sides. For my own part, it is because of my interactions with this community that I am not overly concerned with the issue of negative appropriation of Japanese culture, and that is because of the aforementioned respect/sensitivity the community largely displays. To borrow from an earlier post, I would draw a contrast between this community and the treatment of Greek culture often "expressed" in modern day through Fraternities/Sororities calling themselves "Greek", the tradition of "toga parties", and other often frivolous use of classical Greek cultural elements. That is, in my opinion, a prime example of cultural appropriation done wrong. Not that there's much uproar over the appropriation of classical Greek culture, but it makes a useful lens to view the L5R use of - and attitude towards - Asian culture.

So when do we give up chocolate? That's culturally appropriated too. Do we have to come up with new names for the days of the week now? Can't be stealing from the Norse with and their Thor's day.

3 minutes ago, RandomJC said:

So when do we give up chocolate? That's culturally appropriated too. Do we have to come up with new names for the days of the week now? Can't be stealing from the Norse with and their Thor's day.

Don't forget Tyr's Day (Tuesday), Woden's Day (Wednesday), and Frigga's Day (Friday). And of course, Saturday is really Saturn's Day, courtesy of Roman cultural appropriation.

4 minutes ago, Zesu Shadaban said:

Don't forget Tyr's Day (Tuesday), Woden's Day (Wednesday), and Frigga's Day (Friday). And of course, Saturday is really Saturn's Day, courtesy of Roman cultural appropriation.

I picked the easy one.

But my joking tone aside, I find it kind of silly the way some people get offended on other's people's behalf. If someone is offended by something I do, I'll apologize, and try not offend that person. I just don't believe in in being offended by something that other people may find offensive.

1 hour ago, __underscore__ said:

I mean, you have a lot of people getting angry (well, 'internet angry') right here because someone is questioning an aspect of their hobby.

Are you sure it's that? Or could it be because people are trying to mix ideological garbage into their hobby?

1 hour ago, __underscore__ said:

You see it all over the place - disrespect a part of someone's identity and you're going to get judged for that.

Well, one side does that a lot, I suppose. But I think most people just find it a bit silly to even talk of such things as being part of identity at all. It's not about disrespecting someone's identity but whether identity politics is even a thing.

3 hours ago, __underscore__ said:

I mean, I get from your phrasing that you're being a condescending knob about it and everything, but if you think it hasn't been used appropriately then why not?

Have you talked to the kettle, lately?

here's a hot tip: a thing you like can be problematic, and that doesn't mean you have to stop liking it. it also doesn't mean the people who have a problem with it are any of the absurd things being said in this thread. i don't get why gamers react so virulently to this kind of stuff.

2 minutes ago, cielago said:

here's a hot tip: a thing you like can be problematic, and that doesn't mean you have to stop liking it. it also doesn't mean the people who have a problem with it are any of the absurd things being said in this thread. i don't get why gamers react so virulently to this kind of stuff.

As a liker of plenty of problematic things, I agree. It also doesn't mean the people who find something problematic are right either. It's a differing of opinion. Personally, as generally a liberal in my beliefs, I'm seeing a left leaning people over react in calling things problematic. Also that they are trading one kind of arrogant behavior for another in playing the guardian of another culture that is not their own,

I mean, should we even be having this discussion outside of the FFG brainstorm when they first took the reigns. From that point onward, us members of the public have two options if we don't like it. Find the door and let ourselves out or find a way to deal with it on a personal level and stick around. Unfortunately there seem to be a number of people who make up a third option: to stick around and moan about it to everyone who has no issue with it. There is nothing insightful coming from this.

31 minutes ago, InquisitorM said:

Are you sure it's that? Or could it be because people are trying to mix ideological garbage into their hobby?

I mean, that's that's the same thing I said just put in a needlessly pejoratively way. But sure, either way people who want their safe space away from people who aren't a fan of a small aspect of their past time.

34 minutes ago, InquisitorM said:

Well, one side does that a lot, I suppose. But I think most people just find it a bit silly to even talk of such things as being part of identity at all. It's not about disrespecting someone's identity but whether identity politics is even a thing.

They can find it silly as much as they want, it's not going to change whether people consider it part of their identity. But yeah, I agree that 'identity politics' is a nonsense phrase, as if any politics isn't about identity...

35 minutes ago, InquisitorM said:

Have you talked to the kettle, lately?

Well ****. I guess that'll teach me to take wording like 'pointless conversation/get sweeties' on good faith next time.

8 minutes ago, hoonZilla said:

Unfortunately there seem to be a number of people who make up a third option: to stick around and moan about it to everyone who has no issue with it. There is nothing insightful coming from this.

The game isn't even out yet, so keeping an eye on this kind of thing, and the community reaction to it, does have a bearing on whether I end up buying in. Amongst other things, of course.

28 minutes ago, RandomJC said:

As a liker of plenty of problematic things, I agree. It also doesn't mean the people who find something problematic are right either. It's a differing of opinion. Personally, as generally a liberal in my beliefs, I'm seeing a left leaning people over react in calling things problematic. Also that they are trading one kind of arrogant behavior for another in playing the guardian of another culture that is not their own,

this is a common attack that i don't think holds water. no one is trying to shield asian culture from the mean white folk. they're identifying what they see as ignorant or otherwise disrespectful usage of those cultures. its not about anyone else, so much as about keeping your own house clean. sure, you use "to what degree would this be offensive" as a barometer but at the end of the day we're responsible for the actions of our community, and if we think they're not to our standards we should say so. the people in this thread acting like thats morally reprehensible because someone is accusing their hobby of so much as an iota of cultural ignorance are not representing the hobby in a good light.

4 minutes ago, cielago said:

this is a common attack that i don't think holds water. no one is trying to shield asian culture from the mean white folk. they're identifying what they see as ignorant or otherwise disrespectful usage of those cultures. its not about anyone else, so much as about keeping your own house clean. sure, you use "to what degree would this be offensive" as a barometer but at the end of the day we're responsible for the actions of our community, and if we think they're not to our standards we should say so. the people in this thread acting like thats morally reprehensible because someone is accusing their hobby of so much as an iota of cultural ignorance are not representing the hobby in a good light.

My house is plenty clean, and in it I don't particularly care about hypothetical people getting riled up because of their position on a thing that makes no sense fundamentally(CA). But some of us ARE seeing things in our community that we don't like, and ARE speaking up about them. Hence this thread, and the want that we should just rise above all this. Both sides of the coin. Including the side of the coin that thinks it's opinion is the factually correct one. Those people aren't representing the hobby in a good light either.

Doesn't it feel really good to Assassinate a guy completely loaded with attachments that you lured him into playing by taking an action of stealing 1 honor with your Scorpion Stronghold?

#Smart5R