Fickle's pipe dreams of game fixing

By ficklegreendice, in X-Wing

Hey guys,

Kinda bored and unmotivated over here, so **** it I'll throw in another onto the ever growing pile of "fix" threads for the sake of discussion and surviving an ungodly commute

So a lot of people are not happy with the competitive state of the meta game, where turrets both exacerbate the effectiveness of bombs and are the counter to them as well (can't get bombed if you don't fly towards the enemy). A lot of people are shifting the blame a bit preemptively onto bombs, which is a bit silly considering the problem turrets have been since wave 5 and how utterly game shaping jumpmasters and miranda have been long before nym entered the picture.

By now, I'm sure most know I don't believe turrets ( as currently implemented, not as a concept in and of themselves because turrets are as Star Wars as the falcon) belong in this game. X-wing miniatures is a self described game of "tactical space combat" where the entire selling point is the ability to set dials in an attempt to predict and outmanuever the opponent. The ability to fire regardless of firing arc is an idiotically significant advantage that comes with no drawback other than points paid (really keeping those fairly priced jumps and TLTs down, ain't it?) that almost infinetly improves your ability to move and attack over a conventional arced ship. The fact that you can shoot at any ship that would have a shot against you, outside of asteroid parking or blinded pilot, is something I find flabbergasting in how badly it removes counterplay and instead forces reliance on dice.

By now, it's fairly apparent that the vast majority of arced ships are seeing far reduced play competitively simply because they are vastly more difficult to use and really do not possess the necessary advantage in strength to overcome that discrepancy. In short, what you lose for not having a turret is nowhere near compensated for by how much more powerful your ship is. This, I believe, has to change.

Once it does (and once jumps get nerfed proper), I believe we'll all see bombs no longer be so dominating and we'll get a lot more variety introduced back into the metagame.

So, here are some small changes I believe FFG could introduce into the game to make firing arcs (and therefore player agency) matter more

1.) No range 1 bonsus for out of arc shots

This is mainly for Dengar, a pilot that is utterly broken based on his cost and double-tap ability but which can also easily fall back on his PS 9 + re-positioning + PWT to ruin your day. It also helps with Miranda who, if ignored, can shove 4 dice up your butt if the situation calls for it.

It lastly also helps future proof the game in case yet another broken PWT comes roaring out the gate.

Given how easy it is to set up a range 1 PWT, especially after using EU on a high PS pilot, it really shouldn't reward the player with extra dice.

2.) TLT could use some kind of limitation

TLT is almost as easy to use and abuse as a PWT, particularly on the higher PS pilots that seem to be running the show.

The easiest thing to do with TLT without ruining it, imo, is to just give it an ATTACK: Target-lock header. This eats up an action that the bearer could otherwise have used to nearly effortlessly dodge your arc and open fire, and it makes turtling up at range 3 a little more difficult (need to do some set up to secure that defensive focus). It's still incredibly potent and still absolutely destroys synched turret as a viable option in any squad

Blaster and Synched Turrets could really use a boost, ofc, but that's a subject for another time because of the extent of the boost they'd probably need to ever see play.

3.) Outmanuever should be a base part of the game

This is the big one for me because I feel out-positioning the opponent should be the focus of the game, but as is it is simply not incentivized because of the impact of turrets and dice. The easiest solution, imo, is this:

Outmaneuver.png

No one uses this card because it's 3 stonking points and takes your ept slot. But imagine for a moment if it were a base part of the game.

It would greatly help you against anything that has to run from you, which is a strategy I find to be way too goddamn strong in this game because of how green dice work. Shooting at a range 3 miranda with a primary weapon sucks because she gets two dice and a focus atop her regenerative ability, so unless you roll perfectly you're probably doing zero net damage with a shot. Factoring in the risk of running into bombs while you chase her, and the fact that she regenerates while you just slowly die, this is a horrible situation to be in. Removing half her green dice, however, give you a much needed edge.

Outmanuever would really help against PWTs, Dash and TLTs as well as something else that most players find irritating, r2-d2 rebel regeneration that runs away from you (especially mr. Horn)

In order to prevent abuse of this rule, however, I feel we must limit it to primary weapon only . Otherwise, torp scouts and Ghost/Phantom TLT are going to yuck it up all the way to the bank . Besides, they already deny range 3 bonuses .

The idea has some negatives, however.

1.) decimators and ghosts don't care. I don't personally feel this is a huge deal because neither seem as out and out broken as the current top dogs, but it is worth mentioning as both can flee like they just got caught ******** on your front porch.

2.) The bigger problem is that there are some ships that obviously benefit more from it than others, mainly aux arcs. I personally don't believe anyone would be sad about Firesprays, ARCs or TIE/sf being stronger (because they're cool as ****)

As for the Lancer, I know a lot of people complain about the mobile arc being so similar to a PWT due to coverage (even though it is objectively not true because you can dodge a mobile arc, i.e the possibility exists) and Asajj, though she disappeared from the current meta, is a very strong pilot. Still, I feel that she can be readily outplayed given how her low PS and arc positioning telegraph the crap out of her maneuvers and that the Lancer's offense is not so terribly exceptional that you'd need to be worried about outmanuever shattering the game. I am biased, however, in feeling that all PWTs should have been mobile arcs for the sake of improving gameplay interactions between both players.

You could limit outmanever to primary or auxiliary arc only, however. I do feel the need to include auxiliary arcs because the poor spray deserves something cool after being maligned for so long :(

Honorable Mentions

-Defender white 4k would love this base rule; there's a reason it's on the card art

-Jumpmaster white 2-sloop would also love this rule, but that's hardly the only reason it would need to be nerfed. Personally holding out for the "leaked FAQ" to be real; having only one torp would help immensely with its overall balance.

-Strikers with adaptive allerions seem like they would be fun as **** with this

Closing Out

So those are some things I wish the developers would quickly implement in an FAQ in order to improve the quality of this game.

These are by no means an exhaustive list of my pipe dreams, nor do I believe they will come close to creating a complete balancing in the force (as they don't solve underlying mathematical issues of some ships simply being more efficient than others) but I believe that they would help a lot to encourage more variety in competitive settings. If the "leaked FAQ" ever turned out to be a real thing, then so much the better with these changes.

Discuss at your leisure!

As much as I'd like the "base outmanoeuver" idea, I fear it will be too much an advantage for repositioning high PS aces. These pilots already benefit from repositioning after everyone has moved (aka "nope, you won't shoot me), give them an offensive bonus as well feels too much.

Edited by Giledhil

Otherwise, I totally follow you on turrets. Mobile arcs for everyone !

(And, in a perfect world, way less agile-moving big ships)

21 hours ago, Giledhil said:

As much as I'd like the "base outmanoeuver" idea, I fear it will be too much an advantage for repositioning high PS aces. These pilots already benefit from repositioning after everyone has moved (aka "nope, you won't shoot me), give them an offensive bonus as well feels too much.

Your correct sir, there are far too many arc dodgers ruining the meta right now actually setting their dials; we need more bombs and agency burglary!

Edited by clanofwolves

mo bombs, mo better!

I do completely understand the advantages high PS aces would glean from this, but yeah at the same time the game has finally evolved past the point of palp aces

PS will continue to be a problem in this game, as it is another thing that ships underpay for according to juggler's math, but I do not believe arced aces present nearly the same level problem as high turreted aces.

plus, those guys would not like getting outmanuevered

I like the first two, but the outmaneuver bit would even more disadvantage generics. I actually like the idea of giving ALL Generics that outmaneuver bonus.

I understand that, but just as FFG's done in the opposite way, I wouldn't want to go too far in the opposite direction.

Actually, I would like to see generic pilots with a traditional fire arc and low PS have somz role in the game. Every dogfight in the universe does not include Vader or Soontir..

2 minutes ago, Jo Jo said:

I like the first two, but the outmaneuver bit would even more disadvantage generics. I actually like the idea of giving ALL Generics that outmaneuver bonus.

I like it : if you don't have (or choose to not have) an EpT, replace with Outmanoeuver.

Edited by Giledhil

All sound excellent. nice work.

Why not amend the outmaneuver though to "if your pilot skill value is lower than the enemy ship" as well?

It would mean aces actively won't get the bonus in a PS race. True outmaneuvering (getting higher ps ships in your guns) is rewarded, and is probably more of a boost to generics.

just an idea

Base rules Outmaneuver is something I like in theory but it so dramatically transforms the maths that you would have to rebalance almost everything else in the game. If I was designing X-Wing 2.0 from the ground up I would consider including it, but you can't drop it into 1.0.

Outmaneuver should be a 2pt EPT.

53 minutes ago, ficklegreendice said:

Hey guys,

Kinda bored and unmotivated over here, so **** it I'll throw in another onto the ever growing pile of "fix" threads for the sake of discussion and surviving an ungodly commute

So a lot of people are not happy with the competitive state of the meta game, where turrets both exacerbate the effectiveness of bombs and are the counter to them as well (can't get bombed if you don't fly towards the enemy). A lot of people are shifting the blame a bit preemptively onto bombs, which is a bit silly considering the problem turrets have been since wave 5 and how utterly game shaping jumpmasters and miranda have been long before nym entered the picture.

By now, I'm sure most know I don't believe turrets ( as currently implemented, not as a concept in and of themselves because turrets are as Star Wars as the falcon) belong in this game. X-wing miniatures is a self described game of "tactical space combat" where the entire selling point is the ability to set dials in an attempt to predict and outmanuever the opponent. The ability to fire regardless of firing arc is an idiotically significant advantage that comes with no drawback other than points paid (really keeping those fairly priced jumps and TLTs down, ain't it?) that almost infinetly improves your ability to move and attack over a conventional arced ship. The fact that you can shoot at any ship that would have a shot against you, outside of asteroid parking or blinded pilot, is something I find flabbergasting in how badly it removes counterplay and instead forces reliance on dice.

By now, it's fairly apparent that the vast majority of arced ships are seeing far reduced play competitively simply because they are vastly more difficult to use and really do not possess the necessary advantage in strength to overcome that discrepancy. In short, what you lose for not having a turret is nowhere near compensated for by how much more powerful your ship is. This, I believe, has to change.

Once it does (and once jumps get nerfed proper), I believe we'll all see bombs no longer be so dominating and we'll get a lot more variety introduced back into the metagame.

So, here are some small changes I believe FFG could introduce into the game to make firing arcs (and therefore player agency) matter more

1.) No range 1 bonsus for out of arc shots

This is mainly for Dengar, a pilot that is utterly broken based on his cost and double-tap ability but which can also easily fall back on his PS 9 + re-positioning + PWT to ruin your day. It also helps with Miranda who, if ignored, can shove 4 dice up your butt if the situation calls for it.

It lastly also helps future proof the game in case yet another broken PWT comes roaring out the gate.

Given how easy it is to set up a range 1 PWT, especially after using EU on a high PS pilot, it really shouldn't reward the player with extra dice.

2.) TLT could use some kind of limitation

TLT is almost as easy to use and abuse as a PWT, particularly on the higher PS pilots that seem to be running the show.

The easiest thing to do with TLT without ruining it, imo, is to just give it an ATTACK: Target-lock header. This eats up an action that the bearer could otherwise have used to nearly effortlessly dodge your arc and open fire, and it makes turtling up at range 3 a little more difficult (need to do some set up to secure that defensive focus). It's still incredibly potent and still absolutely destroys synched turret as a viable option in any squad

Blaster and Synched Turrets could really use a boost, ofc, but that's a subject for another time because of the extent of the boost they'd probably need to ever see play.

3.) Outmanuever should be a base part of the game

This is the big one for me because I feel out-positioning the opponent should be the focus of the game, but as is it is simply not incentivized because of the impact of turrets and dice. The easiest solution, imo, is this:

Outmaneuver.png

No one uses this card because it's 3 stonking points and takes your ept slot. But imagine for a moment if it were a base part of the game.

It would greatly help you against anything that has to run from you, which is a strategy I find to be way too goddamn strong in this game because of how green dice work. Shooting at a range 3 miranda with a primary weapon sucks because she gets two dice and a focus atop her regenerative ability, so unless you roll perfectly you're probably doing zero net damage with a shot. Factoring in the risk of running into bombs while you chase her, and the fact that she regenerates while you just slowly die, this is a horrible situation to be in. Removing half her green dice, however, give you a much needed edge.

Outmanuever would really help against PWTs, Dash and TLTs as well as something else that most players find irritating, r2-d2 rebel regeneration that runs away from you (especially mr. Horn)

In order to prevent abuse of this rule, however, I feel we must limit it to primary weapon only . Otherwise, torp scouts and Ghost/Phantom TLT are going to yuck it up all the way to the bank . Besides, they already deny range 3 bonuses .

The idea has some negatives, however.

1.) decimators and ghosts don't care. I don't personally feel this is a huge deal because neither seem as out and out broken as the current top dogs, but it is worth mentioning as both can flee like they just got caught ******** on your front porch.

2.) The bigger problem is that there are some ships that obviously benefit more from it than others, mainly aux arcs. I personally don't believe anyone would be sad about Firesprays, ARCs or TIE/sf being stronger (because they're cool as ****)

As for the Lancer, I know a lot of people complain about the mobile arc being so similar to a PWT due to coverage (even though it is objectively not true because you can dodge a mobile arc, i.e the possibility exists) and Asajj, though she disappeared from the current meta, is a very strong pilot. Still, I feel that she can be readily outplayed given how her low PS and arc positioning telegraph the crap out of her maneuvers and that the Lancer's offense is not so terribly exceptional that you'd need to be worried about outmanuever shattering the game. I am biased, however, in feeling that all PWTs should have been mobile arcs for the sake of improving gameplay interactions between both players.

You could limit outmanever to primary or auxiliary arc only, however. I do feel the need to include auxiliary arcs because the poor spray deserves something cool after being maligned for so long :(

Honorable Mentions

-Defender white 4k would love this base rule; there's a reason it's on the card art

-Jumpmaster white 2-sloop would also love this rule, but that's hardly the only reason it would need to be nerfed. Personally holding out for the "leaked FAQ" to be real; having only one torp would help immensely with its overall balance.

-Strikers with adaptive allerions seem like they would be fun as **** with this

Closing Out

So those are some things I wish the developers would quickly implement in an FAQ in order to improve the quality of this game.

These are by no means an exhaustive list of my pipe dreams, nor do I believe they will come close to creating a complete balancing in the force (as they don't solve underlying mathematical issues of some ships simply being more efficient than others) but I believe that they would help a lot to encourage more variety in competitive settings. If the "leaked FAQ" ever turned out to be a real thing, then so much the better with these changes.

Discuss at your leisure!

Omg. You are kinda bored. This post is long. Dang.

35 minutes ago, Giledhil said:

Every dogfight in the universe does not include Vader or Soontir..

But they do all include Wedge!

I agree with range bonuses. I also think you should get the range three bonus against any weapon other than ordnance.

What if you couldn't modify your dice for an out of arc shot? The idea of a turret is that it's not the pilot shooting, it's the gunner, so pilot bonuses like focus and EPTs can't help you. Target locks, also, are set up for firing weapons straight ahead of you, and most targeting computers can't track targets around a 360-degree arc. Then errata Luke Skywalker (crew) to say "even when attacking outside your arc", so that maybe he'll see some play.

I have paid for outmaneuver to good success.

Edited by Icelom

I like the PWT and TLT ideas, but regarding "outmaneuver"

You never X wing VS TIE multiplayered against my TIE bomber.... (This game being based on that trilogy). Honestly, I was a git to hit when pursued. All energy to engines, comboing with Z axis rotating turns meant that I was a speedy looping nightmare that disappeared in the distance...

BUT... The ships that tailed me would always be flying in a steady predictable pattern. They were toast to wingmen/others unless they broke off, and then I'd loop back in recharging guns - (the bomber had great capacity though) and then pick off those who were overfocused on pursuing... (The bomber had the a very low cost for the guns, resistance and potential speed it had, I cleaned up on the medal table as others took the expensive ships).

Anyway, to modify your suggestion, I'd suggest the -1 AG bonus if you are out of their arc AND if they have another enemy in their own fire arc. This would represent better my experience of the game, as you are killing the ship that is "distracted"...

Edited by Larky Bobble
1 hour ago, Jo Jo said:

I like the first two, but the outmaneuver bit would even more disadvantage generics. I actually like the idea of giving ALL Generics that outmaneuver bonus.

Quite the contrary. TIE swarms would wreak havok. They'd get the rule on each of their ships, so 6-7 times and have no problems melting a ghost or deci in the first place. So theyd finally be able to hit misspositioned soontirs or phantoms and the like and do way more damage pursuing at long range, things they currently suck at.

Edited by MaxPower
10 minutes ago, MaxPower said:

Quite the contrary. TIE swarms would wreak havok. They'd get the rule on each of their ships, so 6-7 times and have no problems melting a ghost or deci in the first place.

Basically this

Not to mention that instilling too many restrictions would make it overly complex and seemingly arbitrary. After all, why would only generic squaddies be able to outmanuever?

Whether or not we restrict outmanuever to generics, this isnt going to be enough to bring them back in force

It does, however, give you a chance in **** to hit SOMETHING when you finally line up those sweet shots (especially with the aid of a blocker)

Edited by ficklegreendice

Yeah, the Outmaneuver change would bring back swarms in a hard way...

Nothing wrong with a little variety, esp given the advent of bombletts which are ruinous to swarms. High ps alpha still exists and will continue to provide a MASSIVE hurdle, but at least now the few tie shots you'll get on dash won't plink off lone wolfed green dice (or lowrick reinforce)

Plus TIES hate getting outmanuevered themselves, the poor squishy buggers.

Anyway, given how swarms basically no longer exist, it seems fine to throw them a bone

Edit: oh God harpoon missiles I completely forgot

Edited by ficklegreendice

It would have to be a "condition" outmaneuver.

'A Few Maneuvers' - small ship only - 0pts

At the end of the end phase, you may choose an enemy ship in your arc, if you are not in its firing arc, assign an 'I Have You Now' condition' to that ship. When attacking a ship with an 'I Have You Now' condition that is in your firing arc, reduce that ships agility by 1.

'I Have You Now' Condition - EDIT: At the beginning of combat phase , if the ship with 'A Few Maneuvers' does not have you in it's firing arc, or you have that ship in your firing arc, remove this card.

Basically, its outmaneuver with a turn to setup, and either forces enemy into engaging next turn or else suffer the consequence. Can be an EPT, or Mod that allows another mod.

Edited by wurms
3 hours ago, ficklegreendice said:

So a lot of people are not happy with the competitive state of the meta game, where turrets both exacerbate the effectiveness of bombs and are the counter to them as well (can't get bombed if you don't fly towards the enemy). A lot of people are shifting the blame a bit preemptively onto bombs, which is a bit silly considering the problem turrets have been since wave 5 and how utterly game shaping jumpmasters and miranda have been long before nym entered the picture.

Well-reasoned arguments, and a good read. Your thesis describes a game that I would like to play.

After careful thought, I endorse these changes, especially considering that they have been all voiced before and I haven't seen any outcries against them.

Even if they did overcompensate and throw turrets out of the meta... I wouldn't mind that much.

2 minutes ago, MaxPower said:

After careful thought, I endorse these changes, especially considering that they have been all voiced before and I haven't seen any outcries against them.

Even if they did overcompensate and throw turrets out of the meta... I wouldn't mind that much.

It will be a dark day for X-Wing when we actually have to point our fighters at the thing we want to shoot.

9 minutes ago, HolySorcerer said:

It will be a dark day for X-Wing when we actually have to point our fighters at the thing we want to shoot.

No one flies fighters anymore, though.

The more I think about it, the more I think that keywords may be the answer. Generate keywords based on a few abilities and give them to entire classes of ship. That would also solve the problem of having to have titles to do things to differentiate a ship that the rules don't allow for (ARC, TIE/sf, Protectorate, as examples).

Possible Keywords:

Ace. This ship activates after all other ships in the activation phase and before all other ships in the combat phase. (Multiple aces would figure out order based on current rules, like huge ships)

Interceptor. Outmaneuver as standard.

Agile. When defending, you may change one die to an evade result.

Dogfighter/Space Superiority/Something Else: essentially Fearlessness as a baseline.

Swarm: forego your attack to add a die to a friendly ship that also has swarm. To hopped up on cold medicine to word it well at the moment.