Yeah, in reality the Empire has a ton of listbuilding variety, in a vacuum. They just get dumpstered by the Rebel/Scum power cards.

1 minute ago, SabineKey said:

And while I can agree with this, it's not exactly like the end results are gonna be different.

The root cause and optimal corrective actions would be.

3 minutes ago, PT106 said:

The root cause and optimal corrective actions would be.

True.

The overall point is this. Rebels were the low risk low reward faction with high attack/health with poor dials. Their strengths come from squad flying and synergetic lists. Imperials had highly evasive low health ships with good dials, so better imperial players would win on maneuvers and action economy. Scum does neither, between the jump master, shadow caster, and skurrg they are the highly maneuverable high damage squads. Due to outright janky cards, there are lots of ways to autodamage, double tap, ion, stress, and tractor low health ships reliant on their maneuvers to win. Therefore, the lowest skill cap faction has the best resources to kill the highest skill cap faction, making it difficult for imperials to see play. Imperials can deal with rebels by flanking and breaking up formations, but scum has too many turrets, auto damage, and good dials on tanky ships to make this viable.

16 hours ago, PT106 said:

This one is news to me. I guess it depends on the definition of competitive. From my point of view, they're a solid mid-tier option and provide a good performance for the cost (at least based on my experience playing them for the last two years), so I would respectfully disagree here.

Imperials have the best method of handling out target lock - FCS+Targeting Synchronizer. It doesn't cost an action, doesn't telegraph out intentions and cannot be countered. What else to wish for?

As far as other methods go - I used them all at some point in time, so my comments:

Coordinate - good as an emergency backup, shouldn't be a primary method. Systems officer - used it with Lambda and TIE shuttle, pretty decent in a good build, good fit for Jonus. Tracers - were pretty good at a time, require 4+ ship builds to compensate for a loss of one attack, there are better options now. Vessery - not really a method, as he ends up being too expensive with the ordnance fitted in. And flying Imperial aces in a tight formation is pretty viable, I'm not sure why you discount that possibility outright.

Good is subjective word. All 3 of those are good dedicated carriers. They aren't good combat ships, thats all.

At a certain skill level most material is able to perform. Some will still perform more than other and you will have more chance to win if you bring them. What this mean is you probably (or most likely) wont be able to tell how good ships/upgrades are unless you participate in bigger events.Tie Bombers (just like Tie/D) dont compete...

Sorry but the best method for TL is actually (and by far) K4. FCS needs an attack to trigger meaning you will have an attack with no TL unless you spend an action almost every time you switch target. Targeting Synch basically just switch a TL from one ship to another. For rebels their way to handle TL is also better... they have so many options for action economy that they can spend their regular action on the TL. And there is also Bodhi Rook whos pretty good...

Coordinate is good, the Imperial ship that comes with it is not. Im 100% sure it will be amazing on the new phantom (and Ghost).

What makes a carrier good? It really depends on what you are carrying. The Lambda is good for Palp even if it does not contribute much to combat because it's cheap. The Upsilon is bad for Palp because it's too expansive. All our carrier are bad for anything that require green maneuvers and/or generate stress. The only one that's supposed to contribute directly to combat is bad because its fragile, has a regular front arc, low PS and poor maneuverability. It has 4 attack dices but they are unmoded most of the time because the action is required for the support role.

Compare those carriers to JMK, Shadowcaster, YV, rebel Tie, Scurrg, Gunship, Ghost, etc and yeah, they dont look good at all...

18 hours ago, SabineKey said:

And while I can agree with this, it's not exactly like the end results are gonna be different.

exactly. Doesnt matter if it's the other factions that have too much or the Imperials that dont have enough. The end result is the same: poor performances.

2 hours ago, Thormind said:

What this mean is you probably (or most likely) wont be able to tell how good ships/upgrades are unless you participate in bigger events.Tie Bombers (just like Tie/D) dont compete...

Well.. It's anecdotal, but I played TIE Bomber at Worlds, ended up in top-64, played TIE/D at Nova, got into top-64 as well. For me personally these are pretty good results, given my skill level, so it's hard for me to agree with a categorical statement that TIE Bomber or TIE/D are not competitive as it contradicts my own experience.

2 hours ago, Thormind said:

Sorry but the best method for TL is actually (and by far) K4. FCS needs an attack to trigger meaning you will have an attack with no TL unless you spend an action almost every time you switch target. Targeting Synch basically just switch a TL from one ship to another. For rebels their way to handle TL is also better... they have so many options for action economy that they can spend their regular action on the TL. And there is also Bodhi Rook whos pretty good...

Are you kidding me? For ordnance, FCS+TS is much better than K4. You don't care about losing PS wars, you don't care about Black One, you don't care about countermeasures - that torpedo is going to hit its target first round of combat, which is all that matters for an alpha strike list. K4 can't do any of that.

2 hours ago, Thormind said:

Compare those carriers to JMK, Shadowcaster, YV, rebel Tie, Scurrg, Gunship, Ghost, etc and yeah, they dont look good at all...

Well.. I stated it before and I will state this again - Empire lacks a good combat ship that can carry a crew and is not overpriced. All the ships that you mentioned (except rebel TIE cause plot armor) are better than Imperials because they are better in combat. None of them are used as dedicated carriers that don't contribute to combat but help the rest of the squad. (And if one needs an Imperial carrier that does a lot of greens - TIE shuttle + MkII engines fits the bill)

2 hours ago, Thormind said:

Doesnt matter if it's the other factions that have too much or the Imperials that dont have enough. The end result is the same: poor performances.

I don't disagree with a bit about Empire performance, but this is not what we are (or at least I am) discussing here. I doubted a statement that Empire is very limited in options, as in my mind it either doesn't have any (compared to several power cards/pilots that are at the top nowadays) or it has a fair amount of options with a similar performance (once we look below those top results produced by top players) and the reason it's not reflected in archetypes is due to the way those archetypes are compiled.

20 hours ago, PT106 said:

I don't disagree with a bit about Empire performance, but this is not what we are (or at least I am) discussing here. I doubted a statement that Empire is very limited in options, as in my mind it either doesn't have any (compared to several power cards/pilots that are at the top nowadays) or it has a fair amount of options with a similar performance (once we look below those top results produced by top players) and the reason it's not reflected in archetypes is due to the way those archetypes are compiled.

To some extent I agree with you, but facts are facts. Imperials have HALF the upgrade cards available to them as a pool than Scum. That's not subjective compiling of archetypes, it's not opinion, it's a fact. I'm making the point that this disparity is one of the reasons Imps are performing poorly. There's just less builds they can come up with than the other factions.

And fewer upgrade slots available to use them, too. The TIE/sf is really unusual in actually allowing you some meangingful customisation options.

23 minutes ago, Stay On The Leader said:

And fewer upgrade slots available to use them, too. The TIE/sf is really unusual in actually allowing you some meangingful customisation options.

And oh boy, does that make the sf fun to build.

3 hours ago, Favoritism Flight Games said:

but facts are facts. Imperials have HALF the upgrade cards available to them as a pool than Scum.

Unless I screwed up in my calculations (and that is possible as I did a quick and dirty estimate), Empire has 133 upgrade cards at their disposal (not counting titles) and Scum has 156 158. That's about 15% difference, not a half. See raw data below:

For scum:

Elite: 38 (3 non-generic)
System: 10 (all generic)
Cannon 7 (1 non-generic)
Bombs 8 (all generic)
Illicit : 12
Salvaged Astromech: 8
Modification: 21 18 (4 2 non-generic)
Missile: 10 (unguided missiles are excluded)
Torpedo: 7 (all generic)
Crew: 31 (16 non-generic, breach specialist is excluded)
Tech: 7 (all generic)

For Empire:

Elite: 36 (1 non-generic)
System: 11 (1 non-generic)
Cannon: 6 (all generic)
Bombs: 8 (all generic)
Mod: 20 (3 non-generic)
Missile: 11 (all generic)
Torpedo: 7 (generic)
Crew: 27 (10 non-generic, breach specialist is excluded)
Tech: 7 (all generic)

I personally don't think that the number of upgrade cards really matters (in my mind what may matter is the presence of platforms that allow a large number of combinations of those cards, as it increases a probability of OP combo not being caught during play testing), but I prefer to keep the facts straight

The biggest problem I have with playing imps (my favorite faction), is that I can win almost all of my games but still miss a cut on MOV. There are plenty of imperial builds that can win almost all of their games, but almost none of them will regularly 100-0 their opponent.

26 minutes ago, PT106 said:

Unless I screwed up in my calculations (and that is possible as I did a quick and dirty estimate), Empire has 133 upgrade cards at their disposal (not counting titles) and Scum has 156. That's about 15% difference, not a half. See raw data below:

....

I personally don't think that the number of upgrade cards really matters (in my mind what may matter is the presence of platforms that allow a large number of combinations of those cards, as it increases a probability of OP combo not being caught during play testing), but I prefer to keep the facts straight

Scum as 20 mods not 18. Also I think 18 titles I think vs 13 in Empire? But yeah it doesn't change much. Still 15-20% is significant. Though I agree the upgrade slots are a bit more important that exclusive upgrades themselves, and we know Empire lacks for slots. Luckily the TIE/sf and Silencer are going back on this trend.

All of the factions seem to go in cycles. Imps, Rebels, and [mainly] scum have all had there dog days.

1 minute ago, TrollCandy said:

All of the factions seem to go in cycles. Imps, Rebels, and [mainly] scum have all had there dog days.

Scum has hasn't had "days", just two

First were brobats in the Palp ace era,vdoing solidly

Then there was the eternity of jumpmaster, under which we still live to this very day

1 minute ago, ficklegreendice said:

Scum has hasn't had "days", just two

First were brobats in the Palp ace era,vdoing solidly

Then there was the eternity of jumpmaster, under which we still live to this very day

You drinking, FGD? Slurrin' your words..
The Scum rule is not going anywhere.. But it is being shared with Rebs these days

4 minutes ago, Rinzler in a Tie said:

You drinking, FGD? Slurrin' your words..
The Scum rule is not going anywhere.. But it is being shared with Rebs these days

Fat fingers and phone, sorry

Jumps def aren't going anywhere yet, but they have been targeted repeatedly by faqs both directly and indirectly (r4 attack timing change, DEADEYE small ship only, zuckuss nerf andfinally Manny infinite range nerf)

That they're still OP is ******* silly, but Keep fingers crossed for more

Ffg have completely redone some IA cards and these guys might need that treatment

6 minutes ago, defkhan1 said:

Scum as 20 mods not 18. Also I think 18 titles I think vs 13 in Empire? But yeah it doesn't change much. Still 15-20% is significant. Though I agree the upgrade slots are a bit more important that exclusive upgrades themselves, and we know Empire lacks for slots. Luckily the TIE/sf and Silencer are going back on this trend.

I'm curious which one did I miss (I used YaSB for reference: GC, LRS, Munitions Failsafe, Tactical Jammer, Adv SLAM, AntiPursuit Lasers, AT, Ion Proj, Pulsed Ray Shield, Stygium Particle Accelerator, Targeting Computer, Vectored Thusters, CounterMeasures, Experimental Interface, Hull Upgrade, Shield Upgrade, Engine Upgrade, Stealth Device, Spacetug Tractor Array - 19 total and there is an argument to not count Targeting Computer as all scum ships have native TL action)

UpRandom thought, but I realized empire is sorely lacking in a ps manipulation. While rebs and scum (roark and mux) don't see much play, something like that could really help squishy and bomb vulnerable imp pilots

And hey, people want thrawn right? If Palp can play at the squad level, why can't he?

Thisd be fun: crew with infinte range. At the end of the round, Select a friendly ship and assign one of two tactic conditions to it (can't think of names)

Condition 1: Ps 12 during activation; ps 0 during combat. At the end of combat, discard this condition

Condition 2: vice versa

Man can dream

2 minutes ago, ficklegreendice said:

UpRandom thought, but I realized empire is sorely lacking in a ps manipulation. While rebs and scum (roark and mux) don't see much play, something like that could really help squishy and bomb vulnerable imp pilots

Imperial version of PS manipulation is Epsilon Ace. (And there is good old generic swarm tactics which unfortunately peaks at 9 for Imperials)

9 minutes ago, PT106 said:

Imperial version of PS manipulation is Epsilon Ace. (And there is good old generic swarm tactics which unfortunately peaks at 9 for Imperials)

VI Howlie and Black Swarm Tactics will be PS 10. Not that scary, but hey it’s something.

5 minutes ago, GrimmyV said:

VI Howlie and Black Swarm Tactics will be PS 10. Not that scary, but hey it’s something.

Vi Howlie won't have Swarm Tactics on her, so she would be unable to pass down her PS (the only ship that can pull this trick is Tycho due to the presence of 2 Elite upgrade slots on AWing). You may be thinking Decoy, but it'll exchange PS as opposed to bumping up PS (though this still allows to do some dirty PS tricks, mainly for Phantoms)

7 minutes ago, PT106 said:

Vi Howlie won't have Swarm Tactics on her, so she would be unable to pass down her PS (the only ship that can pull this trick is Tycho due to the presence of 2 Elite upgrade slots on AWing). You may be thinking Decoy, but it'll exchange PS as opposed to bumping up PS (though this still allows to do some dirty PS tricks, mainly for Phantoms)

Oops I forgot what it does, since nobody uses it.

i guess Imps really are screwed.

5 minutes ago, GrimmyV said:

Oops I forgot what it does, since nobody uses it.

i guess Imps really are screwed.

Well.. it was a useful tactic in PS9 meta (I used it to win my SC this year by swarm chaining QD Vessery and TIE Bomber for a nice alpha strike with Vess shooting his tractor beam first), unfortunately in PS10+ meta this tactic doesn't cut it anymore.

2 hours ago, PT106 said:

Unless I screwed up in my calculations (and that is possible as I did a quick and dirty estimate), Empire has 133 upgrade cards at their disposal (not counting titles) and Scum has 156. That's about 15% difference, not a half. See raw data below:

For scum:

Elite: 38 (3 non-generic)
System: 10 (all generic)
Cannon 7 (1 non-generic)
Bombs 8 (all generic)
Illicit : 12
Salvaged Astromech: 8
Modification: 18 (2 non-generic)
Missile: 10 (unguided missiles are excluded)
Torpedo: 7 (all generic)
Crew: 31 (16 non-generic, breach specialist is excluded)
Tech: 7 (all generic)

For Empire:

Elite: 36 (1 non-generic)
System: 11 (1 non-generic)
Cannon: 6 (all generic)
Bombs: 8 (all generic)
Mod: 20 (3 non-generic)
Missile: 11 (all generic)
Torpedo: 7 (generic)
Crew: 27 (10 non-generic, breach specialist is excluded)
Tech: 7 (all generic)

I personally don't think that the number of upgrade cards really matters (in my mind what may matter is the presence of platforms that allow a large number of combinations of those cards, as it increases a probability of OP combo not being caught during play testing), but I prefer to keep the facts straight

Yeah I was unclear. I meant unique to faction upgrades, not the whole. Scum with 42 and Empire with 22. Roughly 1/2.

I think it does make a difference- Scum has a LOT more possibilities, a lot more possible permutations, and a LOT more slots. The upgrade state is definitely helping to keep Imps out of competition. A unique slot for Empire would be a big help- perhaps Command or Training slots with special orders/tactics- and titles to get them on older ships.

1 hour ago, PT106 said:

I'm curious which one did I miss (I used YaSB for reference: GC, LRS, Munitions Failsafe, Tactical Jammer, Adv SLAM, AntiPursuit Lasers, AT, Ion Proj, Pulsed Ray Shield, Stygium Particle Accelerator, Targeting Computer, Vectored Thusters, CounterMeasures, Experimental Interface, Hull Upgrade, Shield Upgrade, Engine Upgrade, Stealth Device, Spacetug Tractor Array - 19 total and there is an argument to not count Targeting Computer as all scum ships have native TL action)

It's actually 21 because I forgot to include Stygium! The ones you missed were Gyroscopic Targeting and Maneuvering Fins. Also, Targeting Computer totally counts because the Quadjumper doesn't have a native TL action.