4 minutes ago, Stay On The Leader said:

It's just that the Imperial fleet is a bit more one-dimensional than the other factions

I wouldn't call it more one-dimensional, as there are a variety of strategies available to the Imperials, I would state instead that every faction by design has (or had) its own defining characteristics, and Imperial ones (reliance on arc, reliance on defense dice as opposed to hull/regeneration, crew/ship upgrades that mainly provide benefits to others) are harder to operate in a current meta, as the cost of mistake/dice variance is higher compared to other factions.

11 minutes ago, PT106 said:

I wouldn't call it more one-dimensional, as there are a variety of strategies available to the Imperials, I would state instead that every faction by design has (or had) its own defining characteristics, and Imperial ones (reliance on arc, reliance on defense dice as opposed to hull/regeneration, crew/ship upgrades that mainly provide benefits to others) are harder to operate in a current meta, as the cost of mistake/dice variance is higher compared to other factions.

But that's not really true, because the other factions have access to pretty much everything in their arsenal in a pretty decent standard. They get some ships with turrets, some ships with lots of hull, some ships with lots of green dice, some ships with crew slots, some ships with system slots...

The Empire is vastly more limited in its options, and in the ability to spec and customise those options. It's not about whether they're harder to operate in the current meta or not, because they're just as limited in choice whether they're limited to good options or bad ones.

2 minutes ago, Stay On The Leader said:

I don't think it's an anti-Imperial bias, and I don't think anyone else really genuinely thinks that either. It's just that the Imperial fleet is a bit more one-dimensional than the other factions (primary arc, fewer upgrade slots, green dice, low hull, weak big ships), so when successful mechanics are against it there isn't really much of a Plan B to fall back on.

The Scurrg changed my mind on that. Nym is the perfect small ship- with no downsides. Great dial. Amazing upgrade bar. Highest HP small ship. Nym has high PS. Nym has borderline broken ability. Nym is the best Arc Dodger in the game.

Add that on to the best large ship in the game, the JM5K, and yeah, I start to smell favoritism. I think the "Lets give Scum ships every advantage in the game, with no downsides" mentality is ruining this game and the devs should be ashamed how poorly they've handled balance. Add on to that the ridiculous time it takes them to FAQ anything (and their inability to get FAQs right)- and it all adds up to the conclusion that the dev team is either incompetent or woefully understaffed/funded. It's a shame too, because I like this game and want it to be good.

4 minutes ago, Stay On The Leader said:

The Empire is vastly more limited in its options, and in the ability to spec and customize those options. It's not about whether they're harder to operate in the current meta or not, because they're just as limited in choice whether they're limited to good options or bad ones.

This.

Well penned sir.

being limited in choice would not be as much of a problem if you could incentivize outmanuevering the opponent, as imp ships seem to be generally more maneuverable and arc-locked (only got the deci and gressor, after all) in addition to not having tons of slots

problem is you can't outmanuever a turret and turrets are infinetly better at outmanuevering you because they don't have to worry about facing when it comes to attacking

19 minutes ago, Stay On The Leader said:

But that's not really true, because the other factions have access to pretty much everything in their arsenal in a pretty decent standard. They get some ships with turrets, some ships with lots of hull, some ships with lots of green dice, some ships with crew slots, some ships with system slots...

The Empire is vastly more limited in its options, and in the ability to spec and customise those options. It's not about whether they're harder to operate in the current meta or not, because they're just as limited in choice whether they're limited to good options or bad ones.

And here again comes my Idea

come on guys lets blow that thread up to gunboat size and we can have it.

18 minutes ago, Stay On The Leader said:

The Empire is vastly more limited in its options, and in the ability to spec and customise those options. It's not about whether they're harder to operate in the current meta or not, because they're just as limited in choice whether they're limited to good options or bad ones.

Flashy infographic from the Nationals thread disagrees with you. Flashy infographic shows the Imperial faction using a much wider spectrum of builds and pilot combinations than Scum.

If anything, Scum appear more limited as they're almost entirely reliant on a much smaller selection of pilots than either Rebels or the Empire.

9 minutes ago, Stay On The Leader said:

The Empire is vastly more limited in its options, and in the ability to spec and customise those options.

Is it? It does have good access to ordnance (including exclusive access to FCS+Targeting Synchronizer combo on a good platform), some crew that can provide good action economy for the squad/make opponent's life harder (system officer/fleet officer/Kylo/Vader/etc), has de facto exclusive access to cheap control cannons (via TIE/D platform), has the only real cloaking repositioner in the game (as illicit cloaking device is prone to breakage). Should I continue?

@Hannes Solo

No, because the problem isn't Imperial-centric so an Imperial-centric solution is unhelpful

1 minute ago, PT106 said:

Is it? It does have good access to ordnance (including exclusive access to FCS+Targeting Synchronizer combo on a good platform), some crew that can provide good action economy for the squad/make opponent's life harder (system officer/fleet officer/Kylo/Vader/etc), has de facto exclusive access to cheap control cannons (via TIE/D platform), has the only real cloaking repositioner in the game (as illicit cloaking device is prone to breakage). Should I continue?

If you continue to miss the point you should carry on for as long as it takes for you to catch up!
:-)

15 minutes ago, PT106 said:

Is it? It does have good access to ordnance (including exclusive access to FCS+Targeting Synchronizer combo on a good platform), some crew that can provide good action economy for the squad/make opponent's life harder (system officer/fleet officer/Kylo/Vader/etc), has de facto exclusive access to cheap control cannons (via TIE/D platform), has the only real cloaking repositioner in the game (as illicit cloaking device is prone to breakage). Should I continue?

Yes, it is. Imperials have less than half the pool of upgrades to pull from as Scum, and on top of that never get wide open upgrade bars. Plus a lot of Imperial pilots have a very limited set of upgrades available. Take Soontir for example- he was made for PTL- there's simply no other way to build him. Ever tried PS11 Soontir? Yeah it sucks.

17 minutes ago, Stay On The Leader said:

If you continue to miss the point you should carry on for as long as it takes for you to catch up!
:-)

Well.. I'm currently enjoying playing Empire and do not feel limited in my squad building, so I do not believe that limited Empire options are a problem, in fact I feel that Empire is currently pretty open as far as squad-building options are concerned. The problem is not Empire's choices, its the fact that there are several combinations accessible to other factions that are too strong/too reliable/tier 1/OP/etc. I would vastly prefer other factions to get to the level Empire is at right now than for Empire to get its own OP combination as then it'll be locked in list building to playing that (and this is my fear as far as TIE Silencer is concerned, as it may end up being just that).

However I do prefer to play what I like to playing the most efficient squads even at high-level events and don't have an expectation of winning there, so my view is a bit skewed I went to Worlds and Nova playing Empire and had a lot of fun in the process and that's what matters to me.

6 minutes ago, Favoritism Flight Games said:

Imperials have less than half the pool of upgrades to pull from as Scum, and on top of that never get wide open upgrade bars. Plus a lot of Imperial pilots have a very limited set of upgrades available.

Imperials are often able to just change a pilot to a different one instead of doing a different set of upgrades. Other factions are not that open in this regard. As far as limited set of upgrades goes, every faction has several pilots with upgrades glued in (VI Nym, Attani/PTL Fenn/PTL Corran/HLC Dash), so I'm not sure this is a valid argument.

1 hour ago, FTS Gecko said:

Flashy infographic from the Nationals thread disagrees with you. Flashy infographic shows the Imperial faction using a much wider spectrum of builds and pilot combinations than Scum.

If anything, Scum appear more limited as they're almost entirely reliant on a much smaller selection of pilots than either Rebels or the Empire.

I think this is my favourite graphic. Got any more?

I still keep loosing often for Imperium with Scum..

3 hours ago, PT106 said:

Is it? It does have good access to ordnance (including exclusive access to FCS+Targeting Synchronizer combo on a good platform), some crew that can provide good action economy for the squad/make opponent's life harder (system officer/fleet officer/Kylo/Vader/etc), has de facto exclusive access to cheap control cannons (via TIE/D platform), has the only real cloaking repositioner in the game (as illicit cloaking device is prone to breakage). Should I continue?

Good access to ordnance? Are we talking about the TieSF here, with no extra ammo? It certainly aint the Punisher or the Bomber... Compared to the JMKs, Miranda and Nym, Imperials cant compete.

Crews? Imperials have the fewest amount of the 3 factions and no good carrier outside of the Decimator. Even that ship is limited because it does not have the amount of green needed for the ones that would actually be good (Hux, System Officer, fleet officer). The only crew thats good and unique IMO is Kylo. Palp isnt the anymore. Vader is good but his ability is not unique anymore (feedback array...)

Cheap control canons? The upgrades migh be cheap"ish" but the ship is not. That plus the faq that defenders really need that free evade to survive. Why do you think they are rarely performing in tournaments...?

Yeah we have the only real cloaking repositioner but it's very fragile and quite expensive. Not really working in the current meta.

3 hours ago, PT106 said:

Imperials are often able to just change a pilot to a different one instead of doing a different set of upgrades. Other factions are not that open in this regard. As far as limited set of upgrades goes, every faction has several pilots with upgrades glued in (VI Nym, Attani/PTL Fenn/PTL Corran/HLC Dash), so I'm not sure this is a valid argument.

Nym would still be good without VI, just a bit less OP/ fearlessness Fenn/ agree / if you could have a 4 dice turret, would you choose anything else?

The this is even if Imperials have access to different pilots they almost all play in similar ways or have similar roles. They almost all feel the same. We have nothing like Dengar, Asajj, Bossk, Fenn, Miranda, Dash, Corran, Biggs, Nym, Norra, Kanan, Rex, Lowrisk, the list goes on.

On that regard the new Gunship looks like it's at least going to bring some fresh air to the faction. I really hope it turns out to be good.

6 minutes ago, Thormind said:

Good access to ordnance? Are we talking about the TieSF here, with no extra ammo? It certainly aint the Punisher or the Bomber... Compared to the JMKs, Miranda and Nym, Imperials cant compete.

TIE Bombers are pretty decent ordnance carriers as long as there is a way to supply them with that target lock and Empire has several. Empire can also use missiles on several platforms including SF, Adv, AP (although this one is too risky nowadays) and Defender. So as far as delivering that ordnance alpha strike, Empire does have the top spot - their delivery platform is better, it's surviving afterwards/closing the deal that is a problem.

6 minutes ago, Thormind said:

Crews? Imperials have the fewest amount of the 3 factions and no good carrier outside of the Decimator. Even that ship is limited because it does not have the amount of green needed for the ones that would actually be good (Hux, System Officer, fleet officer). The only crew thats good and unique IMO is Kylo. Palp isnt the anymore. Vader is good but his ability is not unique anymore (feedback array...)

Again I would have to respectfully disagree here - Empire does have playable dedicated crew carriers (TIE Shuttle, Lambda, Upsilon), what it lacks is a ship with decent combat characteristics that can use a crew (TIE Phantom excluded). System officers and fleet officers are pretty good in a right build. Rebel captive can still provide a headache to opponent. The problem is not the options, but the expectations that are set too high due to the presence of crew cards like Sabine/Dengar/Rey/C3P0 etc.

27 minutes ago, Thormind said:

Cheap control canons? The upgrades migh be cheap"ish" but the ship is not. That plus the faq that defenders really need that free evade to survive. Why do you think they are rarely performing in tournaments...?

You misunderstood me, I'm not saying that the option is cheap, I'm saying it's there as the only way to play those cannons and still keep the damage potential is to use them as a free attack and currently only Empire has access to that. (And, btw, I don't know about your meta, but I see TIE/D pretty often in Imperial builds and in fact often play one myself)

34 minutes ago, Thormind said:

We have nothing like Dengar, Asajj, Bossk, Fenn, Miranda, Dash, Corran, Biggs, Nym, Norra, Kanan, Rex, Lowrisk, the list goes on.

Really? Quickdraw, Vessery, Backdraft, RAC, Howlrunner, Vader, Sabacc - all those pilots have pretty decent abilities and there are more. Again - in my mind it's not like Empire doesn't have options, its the presence of several options in other factions that are too good that is a problem.

51 minutes ago, Thormind said:

Good access to ordnance? Are we talking about the TieSF here, with no extra ammo? It certainly aint the Punisher or the Bomber... Compared to the JMKs, Miranda and Nym, Imperials cant compete.

9 minutes ago, PT106 said:

TIE Bombers are pretty decent ordnance carriers as long as there is a way to supply them with that target lock and Empire has several. Empire can also use missiles on several platforms including SF, Adv, AP (although this one is too risky nowadays) and Defender. So as far as delivering that ordnance alpha strike, Empire does have the top spot - their delivery platform is better, it's surviving afterwards/closing the deal that is a problem.

Let's not get ridiculous.
Imperials do have ordinance carriers, but can't touch the other factions in this regard . Period.
Sure, quality of ordinance is the same - they all have missile slots. Quantity is a whole other, and more important, element where the Imperials lack. Tie Bombers are not competitive. So just stop.. Springle made top 16 or 32 (?) at NoVA 2017 with a VI Tomax in his list but that is not the rule nor is it a sign of their revival...

Also, Imperials do not have cost-efficient (i.e. competitive) methods of handing out target lock. I've had this discussion before and will gladly go into it again...
If you can name me more than one way in which competitive Imperial pilots pass off target locks well, I'll hear you out.

(1) Coordinate is not cost-effective because the Ups is not great and is not cost-effective
(2) Systems officer, unless on that one Upsilon that extends its range, is useless. So put it on an Upsilo, duh! See (1)
(3) Tracers are not good on Imperials. 'Cause range 1 is not Imperial pilots ever share.
(4) Vessery is great, and can leverage others target locks BUT THAT DOESN'T DO ANYTHING FOR HIM IF HE NEEDS A TARGET TO ROLL THE MUNITION DICE.
(5) ... Okay, your turn.

tl;dr: Targeting Synchronizer is the only right answer. And we should be happy the tech slot is liberally applied to new Imperial ships.

5 hours ago, FTS Gecko said:

Flashy infographic from the Nationals thread disagrees with you. Flashy infographic shows the Imperial faction using a much wider spectrum of builds and pilot combinations than Scum.

If anything, Scum appear more limited as they're almost entirely reliant on a much smaller selection of pilots than either Rebels or the Empire.

I like this chart!

...I just wish I had any idea how it's supposed to be read...

1 minute ago, JJ48 said:

I like this chart!

...I just wish I had any idea how it's supposed to be read...

Lines are common groupings, thicker the line the more commonly grouped pilots are. Factions are seperate, and if there are ships that are never grouped with other ships of the same faction, they are a seperate group as well. Scum Nym + Dengar is the most common scum grouping, Scimitar Pilot is most often grouped with itself, and the Kashyyk defender is never teamed up with any other ship.

46 minutes ago, PT106 said:

Again I would have to respectfully disagree here - Empire does have playable dedicated crew carriers (TIE Shuttle, Lambda, Upsilon), what it lacks is a ship with decent combat characteristics that can use a crew (TIE Phantom excluded). System officers and fleet officers are pretty good in a right build. Rebel captive can still provide a headache to opponent. The problem is not the options, but the expectations that are set too high due to the presence of crew cards like Sabine/Dengar/Rey/C3P0 etc.

You misunderstood me, I'm not saying that the option is cheap, I'm saying it's there as the only way to play those cannons and still keep the damage potential is to use them as a free attack and currently only Empire has access to that. (And, btw, I don't know about your meta, but I see TIE/D pretty often in Imperial builds and in fact often play one myself)

Really? Quickdraw, Vessery, Backdraft, RAC, Howlrunner, Vader, Sabacc - all those pilots have pretty decent abilities and there are more. Again - in my mind it's not like Empire doesn't have options, its the presence of several options in other factions that are too good that is a problem.

I did say "good" carrier. None of those 3 match that definition. Shuttle would be good if it did not have that point restriction on the crew.

Give me an example of an important event (not even major) where a build with Tie/D finished 1st...

All those pilots do feel the same outside of maybe Sabacc (which is too fragile for competitive play). I did not say they were bad, just that there is no ship that offers a different gameplay like Dengar, Miranda, Corran, Poe, Norra, Fenn, Old teroch, Nym, Dash, Bossk, Biggs, Lowrisk, Rex, Kanan etc. The Tie Phantom does offer that kind of gameplay but it's not really working in the current meta. The Gunship looks like our best hope for a different playstyle.

Dont get me started on the Silencer, which is basically another DOA ship for the Imperials. It could have been good with arc dodging + advanced sensor but its grossly overpriced with no powerful ability to justify the price.

Nobody is saying the Empire isn't good per se. If you only play casually you have a ton of really good options open to you, whether you want to fly ordnance, arc dodgers, swarms, etc... The issue is when we get to higher levels of play. You will never win a major event with a TIE Bomber or TIE/D or Upsilon in the current meta (ok I shouldn't say never, but it is very unlikely). That is what is being discussed here. I am a highly competitive player and the thing I care about the most is having a shot at winning a major event (or at least making the cut). Currently Imperials are struggling at this and there are very few ships that will allow you to attain this goal.

4 hours ago, The Penguin UK said:

I think this is my favourite graphic. Got any more?

Not my work - I just copied and pasted from the Nationals topic. More info there!

54 minutes ago, Rinzler in a Tie said:

Tie Bombers are not competitive. So just stop.

This one is news to me. I guess it depends on the definition of competitive. From my point of view, they're a solid mid-tier option and provide a good performance for the cost (at least based on my experience playing them for the last two years), so I would respectfully disagree here.

54 minutes ago, Rinzler in a Tie said:

Also, Imperials do not have cost-efficient (i.e. competitive) methods of handing out target lock. I've had this discussion before and will gladly go into it again...

If you can name me more than one way in which competitive Imperial pilots pass off target locks well, I'll hear you out.

(1) Coordinate is not cost-effective because the Ups is not great and is not cost-effective
(2) Systems officer, unless on that one Upsilon that extends its range, is useless. So put it on an Upsilo, duh! See (1)
(3) Tracers are not good on Imperials. 'Cause range 1 is not Imperial pilots ever share.
(4) Vessery is great, and can leverage others target locks BUT THAT DOESN'T DO ANYTHING FOR HIM IF HE NEEDS A TARGET TO ROLL THE MUNITION DICE.
(5) ... Okay, your turn.

tl;dr: Targeting Synchronizer is the only right answer. And we should be happy the tech slot is liberally applied to new Imperial ships.

Imperials have the best method of handling out target lock - FCS+Targeting Synchronizer. It doesn't cost an action, doesn't telegraph out intentions and cannot be countered. What else to wish for?

As far as other methods go - I used them all at some point in time, so my comments:

Coordinate - good as an emergency backup, shouldn't be a primary method. Systems officer - used it with Lambda and TIE shuttle, pretty decent in a good build, good fit for Jonus. Tracers - were pretty good at a time, require 4+ ship builds to compensate for a loss of one attack, there are better options now. Vessery - not really a method, as he ends up being too expensive with the ordnance fitted in. And flying Imperial aces in a tight formation is pretty viable, I'm not sure why you discount that possibility outright.

28 minutes ago, Thormind said:

I did say "good" carrier. None of those 3 match that definition.

Good is subjective word. All 3 of those are good dedicated carriers. They aren't good combat ships, thats all.

42 minutes ago, defkhan1 said:

The issue is when we get to higher levels of play. You will never win a major event with a TIE Bomber or TIE/D or Upsilon in the current meta (ok I shouldn't say never, but it is very unlikely). That is what is being discussed here.

I don't disagree here, however as I stated before I believe that the problem is not in the Imperial faction and the lack of options, its in several options that are present in other factions and are too good/too forgiving etc. To maximize the chance of winning at major event one needs consistent performance and this is something current Imperials lack compared to their counterparts.

7 minutes ago, PT106 said:

I don't disagree here, however as I stated before I believe that the problem is not in the Imperial faction and the lack of options, its in several options that are present in other factions and are too good/too forgiving etc. To maximize the chance of winning at major event one needs consistent performance and this is something current Imperials lack compared to their counterparts.

And while I can agree with this, it's not exactly like the end results are gonna be different.