Right now there's three things regarding bombs that are keeping many Imp ships out the meta: Nym being PS10, Nym having access to Adv Sensors, and Bomblet Generator existing in its current form (being able to drop a Bomblet every round is just lazy). I think the following erratas would make bombing a lot more balanced (still competitive, but not forcing low health ships at PS <10 out of the game):

Havoc: Scurrg H-6 Bomber only. Your upgrade bar gains the [system] and [salvaged astromech] icons and loses the [EPT] and [crew] upgrade icons. You cannot equip non-unique [salvaged astromech] Upgrade cards. You cannot equip [system] Upgrade cards costing more than 2 squad points.

Bomblet Generator: Action: Place 1 ordnance token on this card. When you reveal your maneuver, you may discard 1 ordnance token on this card to drop 1 Bomblet token. This token detonates at the end of the Activation phase.

Basically this removes the PS10/AS combo and makes Bomblets trickier to use. You can't just drop Bomblets every round with no consequence, you have to plan ahead and generate your Bomblets in advance.

@defkhan1

Warning: Lots of Uninformed Statements below....just observations from a newb whose been trying to pay attention and been using RAC.

Is Nym really whats keeping Imps out of the Meta?

RAC/Palp/Kylo + Cruise Vader is hands down the imps best list and it legite laughs off Miranda/Nym....its a very favorable match for RAC. I mean **** RAC and a Firespray can destroy that list.

Miranda + Biggs/Low is definitely harder mainly because Biggs and Miranda Regen adds a few extra rounds that wouldnt otherwise occur. One or two extra rounds is a big deal since RAC is a walking time bomb.

Trip Jumps is brutal.

So is FSR2 but thats losing popularity fast.

4x TLT ends the game and is probably RAC/Kylo + Vaders worst match up?

Trip Cruise Imp Aces is more than a bit scary for RAC without key blinds but not the absolute worst.

Bomblets are tough but RAC doesnt care much.

Any janky list with more than 3 ships causes trouble.

The best Imp Lists right now appear to be the following:

1. RAC/Palp/Kylo + Cruise Vader

2. 4x TLT Aggressors

3. Palp Aces still probably?

I dont count cruise aces since its literally hit or miss. Curious what the experts think on this....since im definitely not one of those.

Imps are poorly represented sure...but I have a hard time understanding how the meta specifically is causing problems for the imps two best ships and two best cards.....

Seems like its biggest problem is kinda all the weird stuff thats not really meta at all, and all the stuff Imp players are using instead of RAC...

23 minutes ago, defkhan1 said:

Right now there's three things regarding bombs that are keeping many Imp ships out the meta: Nym being PS10, Nym having access to Adv Sensors, and Bomblet Generator existing in its current form (being able to drop a Bomblet every round is just lazy). I think the following erratas would make bombing a lot more balanced (still competitive, but not forcing low health ships at PS <10 out of the game):

Havoc: Scurrg H-6 Bomber only. Your upgrade bar gains the [system] and [salvaged astromech] icons and loses the [EPT] and [crew] upgrade icons. You cannot equip non-unique [salvaged astromech] Upgrade cards. You cannot equip [system] Upgrade cards costing more than 2 squad points.

Bomblet Generator: Action: Place 1 ordnance token on this card. When you reveal your maneuver, you may discard 1 ordnance token on this card to drop 1 Bomblet token. This token detonates at the end of the Activation phase.

Basically this removes the PS10/AS combo and makes Bomblets trickier to use. You can't just drop Bomblets every round with no consequence, you have to plan ahead and generate your Bomblets in advance.

TIE Punisher does all those things except PS10. I think that needs to change. Of course Firespray can do those things except the system slot. Oops. Sorry Imps, can’t let you guys have the OP Bombers like scums and rebs. And I say why not? Don’t nerf, buff!

1 hour ago, defkhan1 said:

Right now there's three things regarding bombs that are keeping many Imp ships out the meta: Nym being PS10, Nym having access to Adv Sensors, and Bomblet Generator existing in its current form (being able to drop a Bomblet every round is just lazy). I think the following erratas would make bombing a lot more balanced (still competitive, but not forcing low health ships at PS <10 out of the game):

Havoc: Scurrg H-6 Bomber only. Your upgrade bar gains the [system] and [salvaged astromech] icons and loses the [EPT] and [crew] upgrade icons. You cannot equip non-unique [salvaged astromech] Upgrade cards. You cannot equip [system] Upgrade cards costing more than 2 squad points.

Bomblet Generator: Action: Place 1 ordnance token on this card. When you reveal your maneuver, you may discard 1 ordnance token on this card to drop 1 Bomblet token. This token detonates at the end of the Activation phase.

Basically this removes the PS10/AS combo and makes Bomblets trickier to use. You can't just drop Bomblets every round with no consequence, you have to plan ahead and generate your Bomblets in advance.

This is really well thought out. We should give you Alex Davy's job. He obviously doesn't appreciate it.

Just now, Boom Owl said:

Is Nym really whats keeping Imps out of the Meta?

RAC/Palp/Kylo + Cruise Vader is hands down the imps best list and it legite laughs off Miranda/Nym....its a very favorable match for RAC. I mean **** RAC and a Firespray can destroy that list.
...

Imps are poorly represented sure...but I have a hard time understanding how the meta specifically is causing problems for the imps two best ships and two best cards.....

Seems like its biggest problem is kinda all the weird stuff thats not really meta at all, and all the stuff Imp players are using instead of RAC...

You have it backwards. RAClo + ace is everywhere precisely because it wrecks Nym. What Nym takes out is virtually every other Imperial list. Palp aces, triple aces, swarms, etc. There's a number of factors keeping these once staple archetypes of the Imperial fleet out of the meta. Nym is one of them. RAClo survives because he can stand up to Nym and all of his bombing shenanigans. Unfortunately RAClo also has severely bad matchups against Biggs-centered lists. So here's the conundrum for Imps: RAClo is basically the one defense we have against Nym, but the other meta power lists (Miranda/Biggs/Low in particular) are terrible matchups for RAC. Thus Imp performance at tournaments is poor because every list has a bad matchup against some Rebel/Scum meta powerhouse. Nerfing Nym would bring low health Imp ships back into the meta, opening list diversity wide open. We wouldn't have to rely on RAClo anymore for the best results.

Just now, GrimmyV said:

TIE Punisher does all those things except PS10. I think that needs to change. Of course Firespray can do those things except the system slot. Oops. Sorry Imps, can’t let you guys have the OP Bombers like scums and rebs. And I say why not? Don’t nerf, buff!

Punisher and Firespray also don't have turrets like the Scurrg does. That's a huge dealbreaker when it comes to building a bomber these days. Don't expect Imps to get another turret anytime soon.

2 hours ago, Boom Owl said:

@defkhan1

Warning: Lots of Uninformed Statements below....just observations from a newb whose been trying to pay attention and been using RAC.

Is Nym really whats keeping Imps out of the Meta?

RAC/Palp/Kylo + Cruise Vader is hands down the imps best list and it legite laughs off Miranda/Nym....its a very favorable match for RAC. I mean **** RAC and a Firespray can destroy that list.

Miranda + Biggs/Low is definitely harder mainly because Biggs and Miranda Regen adds a few extra rounds that wouldnt otherwise occur. One or two extra rounds is a big deal since RAC is a walking time bomb.

Trip Jumps is brutal.

So is FSR2 but thats losing popularity fast.

4x TLT ends the game and is probably RAC/Kylo + Vaders worst match up?

Trip Cruise Imp Aces is more than a bit scary for RAC without key blinds but not the absolute worst.

Bomblets are tough but RAC doesnt care much.

Any janky list with more than 3 ships causes trouble.

The best Imp Lists right now appear to be the following:

1. RAC/Palp/Kylo + Cruise Vader

2. 4x TLT Aggressors

3. Palp Aces still probably?

I dont count cruise aces since its literally hit or miss. Curious what the experts think on this....since im definitely not one of those.

Imps are poorly represented sure...but I have a hard time understanding how the meta specifically is causing problems for the imps two best ships and two best cards.....

Seems like its biggest problem is kinda all the weird stuff thats not really meta at all, and all the stuff Imp players are using instead of RAC...

No, Nym isn't the only thing that's keeping Imps down, but he is the newest iteration and exemplifies what cancels out a lot of the Empire's arsenal, so usually jumps to the forefront of the mind. You also have to take into account what is Nym's usual wingmen, like Miranda and Dengar, who are meta veterans. There is honestly several things in the Imperial arsenal that could wreck Nym's day, but you still have his wingman, plus what ever else is out there that eat the beefier hard hitters. I don't think "cannibalism" between Imperial lists are that big a deal, but it happens. Likewise, I don't think the janky lists are any worse of a problem for Imperial lists than what's top of the meta right now. An unknown list should always be approached with caution, but most players have a good enough understanding of the building blocks of lists to figure out generally how well they can handle a janky list.

17 minutes ago, SabineKey said:

I don't think "cannibalism" between Imperial lists are that big a deal, but it happens.

Tangent, not saying this is what you meant, but:

Anyone else get a bit burned when you see a cut and the only two, or maybe two-of-three, imperial lists get matched with each other?

Edit: Example, top effing 32 at NoVa Open, Nationals. Imp v. Imp. Maybe it's just me but ffs...

21 minutes ago, Rinzler in a Tie said:

Tangent, not saying this is what you meant, but:

Anyone else get a bit burned when you see a cut and the only two, or maybe two-of-three, imperial lists get matched with each other?

Edit: Example, top effing 32 at NoVa Open, Nationals. Imp v. Imp. Maybe it's just me but ffs...

Heh, yes and no. Yes because it means one of the Imperial lists will get cut, period. But also no because it means that one Imperial list will move on, period.

There are other top cuts that have a couple Imperial lists in the top 16, they get matched up against one a non-Imperial list and PUFF, no Imperial lists in top 8.

39 minutes ago, Rinzler in a Tie said:

Tangent, not saying this is what you meant, but:

Anyone else get a bit burned when you see a cut and the only two, or maybe two-of-three, imperial lists get matched with each other?

Edit: Example, top effing 32 at NoVa Open, Nationals. Imp v. Imp. Maybe it's just me but ffs...

FFG anti-imperial conspiracy confirmed.

Quick, someone start an account and ***** about it!

8 hours ago, SabineKey said:

Heh, yes and no. Yes because it means one of the Imperial lists will get cut, period. But also no because it means that one Imperial list will move on, period.

There are other top cuts that have a couple Imperial lists in the top 16, they get matched up against one a non-Imperial list and PUFF, no Imperial lists in top 8.

Yeah, that's a really sad set of alternatives..

8 hours ago, Sekac said:

FFG anti-imperial conspiracy confirmed.

Quick, someone start an account and ***** about it!

Uh.. Ta-da..?

11 hours ago, defkhan1 said:

Punisher and Firespray also don't have turrets like the Scurrg does. That's a huge dealbreaker when it comes to building a bomber these days. Don't expect Imps to get another turret anytime soon.

Well, slap some turrets on those ships! Appearantly it’s done all time.

1 hour ago, GrimmyV said:

Well, slap some turrets on those ships! Appearantly it’s done all time.

It happened to the JM5K- it didn't have PWT in playtesting, they decided to add the PWT after testing was done. The most OP ship the game has ever seen, and they made last minute changes to give it a PWT WITHOUT PLAYTESTING. If that's not incompetence, I don't know what is.

3 minutes ago, Favoritism Flight Games said:

It happened to the JM5K- it didn't have PWT in playtesting, they decided to add the PWT after testing was done. The most OP ship the game has ever seen, and they made last minute changes to give it a PWT WITHOUT PLAYTESTING. If that's not incompetence, I don't know what is.

Source?

3 minutes ago, Favoritism Flight Games said:

It happened to the JM5K- it didn't have PWT in playtesting, they decided to add the PWT after testing was done. The most OP ship the game has ever seen, and they made last minute changes to give it a PWT WITHOUT PLAYTESTING. If that's not incompetence, I don't know what is.

Do you have a source on that?

4 minutes ago, SabineKey said:

Source?

Parrot Goober Something? Just a guess

1 hour ago, HolySorcerer said:

Do you have a source on that?

Personal contact, so I can't name names. Playtester. I'm pretty sure someone on X-WingTMG Reddit also spilled that one. Let me see if I can find link.

1 hour ago, GrimmyV said:

Parrot Goober Something? Just a guess

Parrot Goober LOL. I think you mean ParaGoombaSlayer, but no that's not my source. The someone I know is cross-country that plays- he and I go way back with gaming. He got into playtesting a while back, and was there for the JM5K stuff. I guess he was REALLY surprised when the retail release hit- and SURPRISE- the JM5K had a PWT instead of an arc. He called me immediately and was like "Holy **** why did they sneak this in after playtesting?" He immediately knew that the ship would be way over the top OP.

Rest easy, Imperials. Revenge is a dish best served cold.

And it's only just now stopped steaming.

The Gunboat shall serve us the entree.

18 hours ago, Boom Owl said:

@defkhan1

Warning: Lots of Uninformed Statements below....just observations from a newb whose been trying to pay attention and been using RAC.

Is Nym really whats keeping Imps out of the Meta?

RAC/Palp/Kylo + Cruise Vader is hands down the imps best list and it legite laughs off Miranda/Nym....its a very favorable match for RAC. I mean **** RAC and a Firespray can destroy that list.

Miranda + Biggs/Low is definitely harder mainly because Biggs and Miranda Regen adds a few extra rounds that wouldnt otherwise occur. One or two extra rounds is a big deal since RAC is a walking time bomb.

Trip Jumps is brutal.

So is FSR2 but thats losing popularity fast.

4x TLT ends the game and is probably RAC/Kylo + Vaders worst match up?

Trip Cruise Imp Aces is more than a bit scary for RAC without key blinds but not the absolute worst.

Bomblets are tough but RAC doesnt care much.

Any janky list with more than 3 ships causes trouble.

The best Imp Lists right now appear to be the following:

1. RAC/Palp/Kylo + Cruise Vader

2. 4x TLT Aggressors

3. Palp Aces still probably?

I dont count cruise aces since its literally hit or miss. Curious what the experts think on this....since im definitely not one of those.

Imps are poorly represented sure...but I have a hard time understanding how the meta specifically is causing problems for the imps two best ships and two best cards.....

Seems like its biggest problem is kinda all the weird stuff thats not really meta at all, and all the stuff Imp players are using instead of RAC...

You're absolutely right about RAC... and wrong at the same time. Nym is countered by RAC quite well. I'd say Miranda/Nym is a good matchup for RAC and ace. The problem is that in the age of endless bomblets people are forced to use ships that:

1 have enough hp to actually eat a bomblet or two - in other words, you can't really fly aces unless they're PS11 and have a great alpha in which case they have SOME chance of avoiding bomblets and killing Nym before things get out of hand,

2. can fire at any opponent in range, because firing arc is too much of a handicap when you have to try and navigate your way around a minefield.

In other words, meta is full of triple u-boats, fat turrets, TLTs and the occasional PS11 alpha strikers. Most of which are terrible matchups for RAC. He can deal with Nym, Miranda or Dash. He struggles against everything else that people use these days to counter the current meta though.

I don’t think editing units and upgrades is the solution here. The system itself needs some corrections.

I’d like to see:

green dice used to allow bomb damage halved (after modification) but min:1 damage... or some other effect that allows green dice to matter against bombs without completely invalidating bombers (though why we’ve created a dogfight game where bombers are better than dogfighters at dogfighting is beyond me)

TLT gets second shot only if first missed

using green dice to mitigate bombs actively mitigates the entire purpose of bombs, exchanging dice for positioning

you should, at most, be able to use evades to guarantee canceling 1 damage from a non-attack source

agree TLT needs looking at, though. Powerful turrets not only abuse bombs (because there's no need to consider facing, which you can muck up while positioning for bombs) but counter them (very hard to bomb something that doesn't chase you)

8 minutes ago, Lobokai said:

Green dice used to allow bomb damage halved (after modification) but min:1 damage... or some other effect that allows green dice to matter against bombs without completely invalidating bombers (though why we’ve created a dogfight game where bombers are better than dogfighters at dogfighting is beyond me)

Reaction Thrusters (Modification, 1 pt)

when you take damage from a detonating Bomb roll defense dice equal to your agi. Cancel one damage for each evade result.

yeah, Sabine will still get ya, but what ya gonna do. She’s Sabine, Mando Supreme.

re: TLT

there’s a strategy that I’ve heard about called getting into range 1. I guess arc dodging TLT carriers make that extremely hard tho.

1 hour ago, Favoritism Flight Games said:

Parrot Goober LOL. I think you mean ParaGoombaSlayer, but no that's not my source. The someone I know is cross-country that plays- he and I go way back with gaming. He got into playtesting a while back, and was there for the JM5K stuff. I guess he was REALLY surprised when the retail release hit- and SURPRISE- the JM5K had a PWT instead of an arc. He called me immediately and was like "Holy **** why did they sneak this in after playtesting?" He immediately knew that the ship would be way over the top OP.

It would have made so much more sense to have given the Humpmaster 5k a turret slot with a new Quad Laser Turret that gave 3 dice at range 2-3 with TL. Large ship only (sorry HWK). Probably cost 7-8?

if your friend was more than ‘cool story bro’ then that means the Title was also changed to include the cost for a 3 Att PWT along with the ship itself being changed. With is possible and irresponsible. And a shame.

41 minutes ago, GrimmyV said:

re: TLT

there’s a strategy that I’ve heard about called getting into range 1. I guess arc dodging TLT carriers make that extremely hard tho.

I've heard of a counter strategy called "bombs"

4 minutes ago, ficklegreendice said:

I've heard of a counter strategy called "bombs"

Or even more crazy... bomb carriers with TLTs... take the two strongest attack types that each have a reasonable weakness and put them together so that neither has to deal with the downsides... freak'n genius FFG