Twin Laser Turret
Attack 2, Range 2-3
Attack: Attack one ship (even one ship outside of your firing arc).
If this attack hits, the defender suffers 1 damage, then cancel all dice results. If the defender is not Small, you may roll 1 more attack die and perform this attack twice.
Cost: 6

22 minutes ago, thespaceinvader said:

Traditional Autothruster Aces aren't worried that much about TLTs. But basically the only Autothruster ace in the game at the moment is Poe, and he basically ignores them.

Those Aces are worried about bombs and spike damage, though, enough TLTs can still overwhelm them. You can ignore one, but it'll probably cost you a token or two. Can you ignore 4? And without Autothrusters, nobody is safe, even Defenders get killed by TLT fire pretty quickly, because 3 red dice are better than 3 green dice, and getting double mods on a TLT isn't that difficult.

If you refer 'in the game' as being meta, then poe isn't there either.
If you aren't, then I would argue that Soontir fel, Jax, Jake, inquisitor or even Fenn rau has something to say about it.
I have played against people trying out the new intensity poe, but never at tournaments.

No one (generalisation) flies 4x TLT anymore. It is simply not good enough in the new meta. It might ruin Nym/Miranda/fairship rebels, but imperial alphastrikes, and jumpmasters ruin their day so quick they can't even sneeze.

If you go into this game with only one tool in your box (3x imperial aces with no autothrusters for example), then you are weak against squads that have TLT.
If you mix your toolbox, get a bit of everything (spike damage, PTL/aces with autothrusters, regular aces like vader etc.) then you have some part of your squad strong against tlt, some that is strong against alphastrikes, etc. etc.

That is the fundamentals of squad building, and people who build a list that can only handle 1-2 archetypes, then complains about their inability to deal with the other archetype, might want to stop flying ships that fills the exact same niche.

For us who weren't present at the NOVA panel, the video must be made available if we are to be able to add anything to this interesting topic.

Do anyhen know if /when/where to see it?

Please don't answer with search on youtube but with a link if it is there or at least with when it might become available if you are in the know.

I think too many people are looking at it the wrong way: TLT in comparison with other turrets.

Apart from niche uses of ABT and Ion, what other turret is really competitive?

If you make TLT as bad as Blaster Turret, it will see use as muchbas blaster turret (aka no use whatsoever)'

12 hours ago, Infinite_Maelstrom said:

I'm just glad the're taking their time playtesting it.

no good rushing it

This is awesome! Hahahahaha! ....I just spit tea all over my laptop.

7 minutes ago, LordBlades said:

I think too many people are looking at it the wrong way: TLT in comparison with other turrets.

Apart from niche uses of ABT and Ion, what other turret is really competitive?

If you make TLT as bad as Blaster Turret, it will see use as muchbas blaster turret (aka no use whatsoever)'

And that is the right way to look at it. TLT should be in line with the other turrets cause thy where balanced. There should be a price for being able to shoot outside of your arc and that price shouldn't be too low. The Blaster Turret, as bad as it is, was used before the introduction of the TLT. It just wasn't a no brainer.

1 hour ago, Hannes Solo said:

And that is the right way to look at it. TLT should be in line with the other turrets cause thy where balanced. There should be a price for being able to shoot outside of your arc and that price shouldn't be too low. The Blaster Turret , as bad as it is, was used before the introduction of the TLT . It just wasn't a no brainer.

No it wasn't.
It had only use with a particular combo with a scum droid that allowed to acquire a target lock after the focus token was spent to perform the attack. But that combo was soon killed by a FAQ saying that spending a focus to attack doesn't count as spending the focus during the attack. Outside of that, it only made sense to use it with the Moldy Crow title on a HWK along with Recon Specialist, but that was a horrible waste of points.
Only turrets used were Ion and Autoblaster. And that meant that the Y-wing and the HWK (for some time the few ships with a turret slot), were absent from the tables.
The Y-wing came back first as the "Stresshog" with the Ion Turret, BTL-A4 and R3-A2 combo, because it could be used for double tapping in arc (ironically for a turret).

Turrets were bad, expensive and underpowered, but the ability to equip them had been overestimated by the developers since the beginning, and they overcosted the ships able to equip them.
They said the Y-wing was overcosted about 2-3 points, and the HWK was overcosted 3-4 points. So they released a undercosted turret to make for it: TLT. The TLT is worth about 9 points, but costs 6 because ships that could equip them were overcosted around 3 point. It came with the K-wing, that, statwise, was also overcosted by design.

The problem has three sides:
- The TLT is too effective against the wrong kind of targets: low agility, low mitigation targets. It was designed to defeat the fat point fortresses but it was as good with other targets that needed no such a punishment like B-wings, T/A, T/F, and basically anything that is not a point fortress and that cannot equip autothrusters.
- Since the introduction of the TLT, meant for overcosted ships, they have introduced ships that can equip them but aren't overcosted, like the Attack Shuttle, the VCX-100, ... but its especially terrible the case of the Scurrg, a ship that suffers the design problem of the Jumpmaster 5000: aggresively costed and with upgrade bar bloat.
- For some time after the release of the autoblaster turret and the accuracy correct it was said that no ship would ever come out that combined the systems slot and the turret slot, since Accuracy Corrected Autoblaster Turret would be just broken. For some time this was so. But then they released the Ghost that had precisely this combo. Then the Scurgg. Not only autoblaster gets a bit broken with Accuracy corrector. TLT also becomes too reliable.

The developers designed the TLT a bit too strong, but also crossed some lines that shouldn't have been crossed.
That on top of undercosted and overupgradeable Scurrg, and abusive use of bombs among TLT users, made the perfect storm.

3 hours ago, Hannes Solo said:

I gues it would be OK as it is if the cost would be raised to 12Points.

Really?

7 minutes ago, Stoneface said:

Really?

It's not that far off. The Punishing one title costs 12Points for increasing the Attack for a PTW by 1.
Most Ships that would take a TLT have a 1 or 2 dice arc locked primary. The K wing has a 2 dice not arc locked primary.
If you look at the average damage the TLT is better then a 3 dice attack it is significantly better then a 2 dice attack so equipting a TLT on a an Y-wing does not only give it an out of arc attack (that doesn't give range 3 bonus defense) but also gives a much better attack when that ship had. So yes 12Points for an unaltered TLT doesn't seem much too much.

20 hours ago, Kdubb said:

Also, I am pleasantly delighted that nearly everyone here seems to agree on something for once.

That's a big step for this forum (seriously), and speaks volumes about how big of an issue TLT really is.

It all depends on why they're complaining. Some because they fly Imps and don't handle TLTs well. Some just like to b***h.

When the TLT Y-Wings showed up, people lost their collective minds for a short period of time. Then, they figured out how to beat it.

Is it a strong weapon? YES! Is it a PITA to fly against? Oh boy is it! Does it desrve to be gutted like most here suggest? NO!

18 minutes ago, Stoneface said:

It all depends on why they're complaining. Some because the fly Imps and don't handle TLTs well. Some just like to b***h.

When the TLT Y-Wings showed up, people lost their collective minds for a short period of time. Then, they figured out how to beat it.

Is it a strong weapon? YES! Is it a PITA to fly against? Oh boy is it! Does it desrve to be gutted like most here suggest? NO!

Agree, That's why I just suggested a miminal nerf of only hits counts for TLT's.

57 minutes ago, Hannes Solo said:

It's not that far off. The Punishing one title costs 12Points for increasing the Attack for a PTW by 1.
Most Ships that would take a TLT have a 1 or 2 dice arc locked primary. The K wing has a 2 dice not arc locked primary.
If you look at the average damage the TLT is better then a 3 dice attack it is significantly better then a 2 dice attack so equipting a TLT on a an Y-wing does not only give it an out of arc attack (that doesn't give range 3 bonus defense) but also gives a much better attack when that ship had. So yes 12Points for an unaltered TLT doesn't seem much too much.

But the Punishing One title is a primary, meaning it stacks with range bonus, has no donut hole, and you can roll all crits and not cancel any of them. A three dice primary has a significantly higher damage ceiling than a TLT, which is hard capped at two. You have to look at more than averages. Punishing One title should cost more that TLT, and TLT ain't worth 12 points.

3 minutes ago, SabineKey said:

But the Punishing One title is a primary, meaning it stacks with range bonus, has no donut hole, and you can roll all crits and not cancel any of them. A three dice primary has a significantly higher damage ceiling than a TLT, which is hard capped at two. You have to look at more than averages. Punishing One title should cost more that TLT, and TLT ain't worth 12 points.

Out of range one a 3 dice primary has a damage ceiling that is 1 dice higher when that of a TLT. Not more not less. A primary gets a range one bonus yes but a secondary doesn't give a range 3 bonus defence.
Statistically a TLT attack is better then a 3 dice attack (0,8 expected damage vs 1,1 expected damage against a 2agility ship). - These numbers are out of my head. I can't confirm them atm cause xwingcalculator seems to be down.

Punishing one gives +1 attack.

A TLT upgrades an y-wing from a 2 dice primary to TLT whish is arguably about the powerlevel of a 3 dice primary

It also gives the ability to shoot outside arc. But it can't be used at range 1.

So you get a better attack AND you can now shoot out of arc (with that better attack)

So yes a TLT for 12 Points would not be overcostet. Which shows just how broken it is.

32 minutes ago, Hannes Solo said:

Out of range one a 3 dice primary has a damage ceiling that is 1 dice higher when that of a TLT. Not more not less. A primary gets a range one bonus yes but a secondary doesn't give a range 3 bonus defence.
Statistically a TLT attack is better then a 3 dice attack (0,8 expected damage vs 1,1 expected damage against a 2agility ship). - These numbers are out of my head. I can't confirm them atm cause xwingcalculator seems to be down.

Punishing one gives +1 attack.

A TLT upgrades an y-wing from a 2 dice primary to TLT whish is arguably about the powerlevel of a 3 dice primary

It also gives the ability to shoot outside arc. But it can't be used at range 1.

So you get a better attack AND you can now shoot out of arc (with that better attack)

So yes a TLT for 12 Points would not be overcostet. Which shows just how broken it is.

You are forgetting crits. A TLT is incapable of crits, capping it at two damage. One crit going through can do that much damage. You ever see someone roll all crits? I have. It's scary, and there are multiple ways for that to equal extra damage. Thus, a primary has a greater damage ceiling than three. The range one bonus is better than the range three bonus as red dice are superior to green dice due to one more success facing, which is a crit, allowing for more effects and/or damage.

Again, you have to evaluate more than just averages.

4 minutes ago, SabineKey said:

You are forgetting crits. A TLT is incapable of crits, capping it at two damage. One crit going through can do that much damage. You ever see someone roll all crits? I have. It's scary, and there are multiple ways for that to equal extra damage. Thus, a primary has a greater damage ceiling than three. The range one bonus is better than the range three bonus as red dice are superior to green dice due to one more success facing, which is a crit, allowing for more effects and/or damage.

Again, you have to evaluate more than just averages.

Yeah all crits is scary...
...and unlikely.

TLT has better average damage the a 3 dice attack. Also how much do you care about the crits when there are only one or two HP left? ATLT is equivalent compared to a 3 dice attack and I would argue it is agtually better against agility 2+ ships.

Just now, Hannes Solo said:

Yeah all crits is scary...
...and unlikely.

TLT has better average damage the a 3 dice attack. Also how much do you care about the crits when there are only one or two HP left? ATLT is equivalent compared to a 3 dice attack and I would argue it is agtually better against agility 2+ ships.

One HP, not much. Two HP, a heck of a lot. With two HP, I can take one damage in exchange for one more turn to do more damage, or buy my other ships more time. If the hit that goes through is a crit, I am in danger of a Direct Hit or Major Explosion, which can turn that one damage into two. And that's not counting things like Blinded pilot, which means I can't get that last shot off, or console fire, which is a ticking time bomb. You may scoff at this, but I have seen this win games.

Just because something is less likely doesn't mean it doesn't have value. A value TLTs don't have. Your over fixation on averages is blinding you. Look at all the capabilities. You haven't even touched on TLTs donut hole. That alone makes it not as good as Punishing One. Then you add in damage potiental, and get TLT =/= Punishing One.

Just now, SabineKey said:

One HP, not much. Two HP, a heck of a lot.

But if your opponent has 2 HP left and you can choose between a normal 3 dice attack and a tlt attack what would you choose to attack him with?

If you can't agree on the price for the card, let's agree on something else :

TLT is a *** design, as drawbacks (dmg cap, no crit, donut hole) are not important enough to counterbalance the possibility to shoot at R3 in 360 degrees without range bonuses. Even more when you can cover you donut hole with repositioning abilities and/or bombs.

So instead of discussing price, let's focus on a better gameplay design for the weapon.

1 minute ago, Hannes Solo said:

But if your opponent has 2 HP left and you can choose between a normal 3 dice attack and a tlt attack what would you choose to attack him with?

Depends on the other variables. I've seen TLTs comepletely waft attacks plenty of times. Is this range three? What tokens do both of us have. Yes, a TLT is an excellent canidate in this situation, but there are plenty of modifiers to consider.

Now, let me reverse this on you. You are fighting a full health Fenn Rau and you have caught him in arc at range two. If you don't kill him now, he is likely to kill you next turn. Do you take a TLTshot which, at best, will reduce him to half health, or do you try the three dice normal shot for the chance at extra damage through crits?

4 hours ago, Hannes Solo said:

And that is the right way to look at it. TLT should be in line with the other turrets cause thy where balanced. There should be a price for being able to shoot outside of your arc and that price shouldn't be too low. The Blaster Turret, as bad as it is, was used before the introduction of the TLT. It just wasn't a no brainer.

Please name a single top tier competitive build in x-wing (entire history) that used turrets (ABT, Stresshog and TLT not withstanding).

If the other turrets are balanced it shouldn't be that hard, right?

39 minutes ago, LordBlades said:

Please name a single top tier competitive build in x-wing (entire history) that used turrets (ABT, Stresshog and TLT not withstanding).

If the other turrets are balanced it shouldn't be that hard, right?

Well, synched and dorsal really had no chance to be seen in a competitive sphere as they were released after TLT, so that cancels out 2 of the other turrets. I'm not sure either would be up to snuff, but that may simply be because they are inherently linked to being compared to TLT in its current form.

Blaster is bad.

Ion actually saw what I would consider a healthy amount of play in competitive play before TLT. Rebel 4 or 5 ship often included an ion Y in the mix. Ion + stress with r3a2 (with or without the title) was worthwhile as well. I also think ion turret would see a lot of good use on The VCX if TLT was more balanced.

6 minutes ago, Kdubb said:

Well, synched and dorsal really had no chance to be seen in a competitive sphere as they were released after TLT, so that cancels out 2 of the other turrets. I'm not sure either would be up to snuff, but that may simply be because they are inherently linked to being compared to TLT in its current form.

Blaster is bad.

Ion actually saw what I would consider a healthy amount of play in competitive play before TLT. Rebel 4 or 5 ship often included an ion Y in the mix. Ion + stress with r3a2 (with or without the title) was worthwhile as well. I also think ion turret would see a lot of good use on The VCX if TLT was more balanced.

Honestly, a lot of times, the advantage that gets TLT fielded more is its range rather than double tap ability. Stresshogs would have gone with Ion Turrets in a heart beat over TLTs if it was the same range increment of 2-3.

On 9/19/2017 at 8:56 AM, eagletsi111 said:

So by now most of us have seen the interview at Nova where a Star Wars Designer says, TLT is his most hated card and has been for a while now because of how it unbalances the game.

So I ask you where is the Nerf? Isn't it time they just stated

1) Crits when firing a TLT count as misses

or

1) Ships being attacked ignore the Secondary weapon bonus of the TLT

Why have they not done this yet? Do we think the Mouse has something to do with this, or are the designers afraid to admit there mistakes,

Just wondering what others think?

Can you tell me where I might find this interview? Thanks!

1 hour ago, SabineKey said:

Depends on the other variables. I've seen TLTs comepletely waft attacks plenty of times.

First you wanted me to bring up test results now you waggle away from statistics with 'I have seen people roll 3 crits' and 'I have seen TLTs comepletely waft attacks'

http://xwingcalculator.x10host.com/diceuilm.html

is online again so look up the math if you like

if you compare tlt to 3dice attack (in r2) expected damage is as follows

Agility / TLT /3d

1 / 1,5 / 1,2

2 / 1,2 / 0,9

3 / 0,9 / 0,7

Yes the 3 dice attack has potentional more damaged but the chance is pretty slim. Against a 2 AGility ship a 3d attack (r2) has a probability of 0,05 to make 3 damage. that is one of 20 attacks. (and it might be one there you do not need 3 damage)

I think the can agree that a TLT (on r2) isn't less powerfull then a 3d attack and as long as you do not absolutly need the 3 damage now it is more reliabla and will do more damage in the long run.

Just now, Hannes Solo said:

First you wanted me to bring up test results now you waggle away from statistics with 'I have seen people roll 3 crits' and 'I have seen TLTs comepletely waft attacks'

http://xwingcalculator.x10host.com/diceuilm.html

is online again so look up the math if you like

if you compare tlt to 3dice attack (in r2) expected damage is as follows

Agility / TLT /3d

1 / 1,5 / 1,2

2 / 1,2 / 0,9

3 / 0,9 / 0,7

Yes the 3 dice attack has potentional more damaged but the chance is pretty slim. Against a 2 AGility ship a 3d attack (r2) has a probability of 0,05 to make 3 damage. that is one of 20 attacks. (and it might be one there you do not need 3 damage)

I think the can agree that a TLT (on r2) isn't less powerfull then a 3d attack and as long as you do not absolutly need the 3 damage now it is more reliabla and will do more damage in the long run.

Because experience is data. Do you have experience proving that a one hit max TLTs would still be worthwhile? Or a 12 point TLT? If you do, then please share it. That is why I challenged you to test your fix idea. You are dealing with theories and are still have your head stuck in averages and not in actual gameplay moments. Expected values don't mean other values don't exist. And considering luck is a factor in this game, averages isn't the only thing to expect. The fact that there is a need for higher than two damage already gives the advantage to Punishing One.