3 hours ago, Stoneface said:

Relax! In a couple of months the meta will start to swing and this time next year the combos of Miri/Nym and DenNym will be a nightmarish memory, replaced with something else to be complained about.

2 hours ago, any2cards said:

snip

Wait a wave or two, and we will find new things to complain about as it pertains to xxxxx (xxxxx can be a stand in for just about any mechanic, ship, etc. in this game).

Today's broken garbage will be replaced by new broken garbage. That doesn't bring anything back into the meta that was pushed out earlier. To say that the top lists change doesn't address the fundamental imbalances that are present.

2 hours ago, william1134 said:

Perhaps but just having the current OP ship replaced with one even worse doesn't remove the original offender.

^Yup

On topic: What if bombs simply couldn't be dropped if the token would overlap a ship base? Too much? Not enough? Dropping a bomb when an enemy ship is right next to the chute probably is not advisable.

3 hours ago, william1134 said:

Perhaps but just having the current OP ship replaced with one even worse doesn't remove the original offender.

True but fat turrets are still around as are swarms and Phantoms, etc., even though they're not seen often in competition. There's always going to be "the next big thing" until FFG quits revealing new content. When Guns for Hire drops, somebody will probably come up with an OP list that starts this debate anew just with a different target for our complaints.

I played against Fel and his cronies during his time in the spotlight so I understand some of the frustration caused by the bomb buddies of Nym, Doni and Dengar. At least you can land hits on a one or two agility ship. A R3 attack on Fel is against 5 greens, 2 focus tokens and an evade. The next round he's in R1 and dodging arcs. Real fun times. If you're the Imp, otherwise, not so much.

3 hours ago, Favoritism Flight Games said:

Green dice are for: Inflating the points cost of Imperial ships so that they're not competitive. Considering all the things that bypass Agility, AGI is basically a dump stat now, lol. HP >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> AGI

http://xwing-armada.blogspot.com/2017/04/x-wing-meta-and-balance.html

Agreed

7 hours ago, Jike said:

[...] When your space superiority fighter isn't as manoeuvrable as a heavy bomber, to the point where it can't get out of range 1 regardless of what it does, there's a fundamental problem, I think. [...]

Not just heavy bombers but freighters can be far more maneuverable than a superiority fighter. The reason is because in this game, X-Wing, there is a misconception that we have superiority fighters, heavy bombers and even freighters.

We do not. The game is NOT thematic in that way at all. Every ship is balanced as a fighter and needs to preform as a fighter. Some of these fighters are better at carrying missiles and bombs and may indeed be called a bombers. But even so, since that core of the game focuses on a 100 point death match there is little need for a freighter and bomber that preforms like their names suggests. If we didn't have these other 'fighters' then we would by necessity have fewer Star War themed ships. I've long since given up on freighters being freighters, or bombers being bombers. This isn't that kind of game unless you develop your own scenario and strip out the ships abilities.

I'm not saying X-Wing isn't fun, it is! Absolutely. But don't expect bombers and freighter to be anything other than a fighter with a different name.

58 minutes ago, Ken at Sunrise said:

Not just heavy bombers but freighters can be far more maneuverable than a superiority fighter. The reason is because in this game, X-Wing, there is a misconception that we have superiority fighters, heavy bombers and even freighters.

We do not. The game is NOT thematic in that way at all. Every ship is balanced as a fighter and needs to preform as a fighter. Some of these fighters are better at carrying missiles and bombs and may indeed be called a bombers. But even so, since that core of the game focuses on a 100 point death match there is little need for a freighter and bomber that preforms like their names suggests. If we didn't have these other 'fighters' then we would by necessity have fewer Star War themed ships. I've long since given up on freighters being freighters, or bombers being bombers. This isn't that kind of game unless you develop your own scenario and strip out the ships abilities.

I'm not saying X-Wing isn't fun, it is! Absolutely. But don't expect bombers and freighter to be anything other than a fighter with a different name.

An interesting take on ship's abilities in this game. I have to agree. Freighters that sloop and barrel roll vs fighters that can't, definitely not thematic. I wonder what the stat lines would look like if the game was objective based rather than the standard 100/6?

7 hours ago, any2cards said:

I don't post very often (in this forum), but I do find the on-going debate about ordnance very amusing.

I have been around this game since the beginning, and until the last couple of waves, one of the biggest on-going complaints was the fact that ordnance was worthless ... cost too much, doesn't do anything, what is the point, etc.

Now, FFG actually makes the ordnance valuable, and the whining doesn't stop ... it just approaches from a different angle.

As I said, amusing.

Wait a wave or two, and we will find new things to complain about as it pertains to xxxxx (xxxxx can be a stand in for just about any mechanic, ship, etc. in this game).

Another quiet voice of reason. If the people that complained didn't post, this forum would look like the Atacama desert. Barren.

16 minutes ago, Stoneface said:

Another quiet voice of reason. If the people that complained didn't post, this forum would look like the Atacama desert. Barren.

The Atacama's altitude is OP, it pushes the Sahara and Gobi out of the meta!

(╯°□°）╯︵ ┻━┻

26 minutes ago, Stoneface said:

An interesting take on ship's abilities in this game. I have to agree. Freighters that sloop and barrel roll vs fighters that can't, definitely not thematic. I wonder what the stat lines would look like if the game was objective based rather than the standard 100/6?

Time to jump ship to Armada then? The game has had it's own issues, but it's in a **** of a lot better shape than X-Wing is. You'll even recognize the ships on the board!

10 minutes ago, HolySorcerer said:

Time to jump ship to Armada then? The game has had it's own issues, but it's in a **** of a lot better shape than X-Wing is. You'll even recognize the ships on the board!

I have heard Epic is fun and fairly balanced, and a lot cheaper to get into for an X-Wing player with an average to large sized X-wing collection.

46 minutes ago, HolySorcerer said:

Time to jump ship to Armada then? The game has had it's own issues, but it's in a **** of a lot better shape than X-Wing is. You'll even recognize the ships on the board!

Armada is such a good game. Not perfect. But really well done. I'm especially happy after the FAQ.

I still like green dice..... But I am strange.

6 minutes ago, Lobokai said:

Armada is such a good game. Not perfect. But really well done. I'm especially happy after the FAQ.

hear hear

Armada learned a lot from x-wing, not the least of which was improving the dice system by SIGNIFICANTLY varying effectiveness per range, ditching green dice and adding objectives

Wish we could reverse engineer some of those improvements into X-wing. Even something simpler like ditching fix titles for innate ship abilities would be great and make the process of hindsight balancing a lot easier (no need to package new titles, just have reference cards available online!)

Then we could do crazy ****, like giving (empire) Tie Fighters a better version of draw their fire where whenever another friendly ship at range 1 suffers damage, you can suffer 1 damage (as opposed to hit/crit results) instead. No need to fret over soontir getting one shot by a sabine bomb when there's a friendly tie taking that hit for him and it keeps **** green dice from utterly ruining your day. In general also makes the low health swarm more resistant to mass damage too!

fluff justification is a bit wonky, but since your ship's position in X-wing is so utterly abstract ("bumping" doesn't actually happen) you can just imagine that the TIEs are darting around such that you don't really know where they are. So when the bomblett pops, whoops! it was a TIE fighter all along!

a man can dream

Bombs and AB are born for getting throught green dice.

So now we are complain about that?

Seems to me that the major problem is to want to fight Nym with green dice. It's like fighting Turrets without Autothrusters for me. Some advices for the Defenders Player: engage Nym at long range, focus down him first, and going for a good trade: Nym will always do 2 hits+2 red dices (with no focus, the bomblet). If you can trade this output of damage with something like 5-6 damages in the same turn, you're fine.

Sometimes, the best way to kill Nym is just flying trought his AB/Bomblet, and just focus him down. Nym is a great sustain damage dealer. More turns you let him to """shoot""" you (yep, bomblet including), more he will scary. That's why it's a late game monster.

But if you're facing Dengar/Nym, and you're an Imperial player, well I would going for Nym first. You can almost dodge Dengar's arc, or still roll green dice against his attacks. But you cannot roll any green dice against Nym.

So, at the end, we are talking about 1 ship. Bombs and AB should negate green dice as always, the problem is learn to conduce a game in these situations.

PS: even if a fix is not needed, something that blocks the pre-move bombs should be better. Like, "if you're not stressed" and/or "if you're not ionized"...I would love more control in this game, and less pure dmg output. Stress, Ion, Tractor, I would love more weight on these concepts.

1 hour ago, HolySorcerer said:

Time to jump ship to Armada then? The game has had it's own issues, but it's in a **** of a lot better shape than X-Wing is. You'll even recognize the ships on the board!

Nope. One table top plastic crack game is enough for me. As a casual player I find the game in great shape. Play what you want. Theory craft unusual squads with no worry about them losing. I'm beginning to think it's the competitive players that lose their minds when their treasured Imps get smoked. While the Darkside has cookies, the Lightside has fun. Better than cookies with fewer calories.

3 hours ago, Stoneface said:

Nope. One table top plastic crack game is enough for me.

Indeed. Can't like this enough. I have spent nearly $4,000 on this game and have never played it once.

Still, I love it because I love the ships. They are pre-painted, so an old, decrepit, nearly senile, talent-less hack such as myself can collect the ships and just look at them in all their glory.

Nevertheless, every so often, I secretly wish for them to come out with X-Wing 2.0, and piss me off (because nothing will be compatible), so that my OCD for completeness will be satisfied, and I can kick this plastic crack habit once and for all.

Mistakes were made. Many. Wayyyyyyyyyyyyyy too MANY !!!

Now I need FFG's help to end this nightmare.

Fight Cancer with cancer. Nyms are nothing against other turret lists. Also, we can stop whining about autodamages already. Resistance bomber proves that only more of em is going to come.

So ****, I'll play Soontir tonight.

6 hours ago, HolySorcerer said:

Time to jump ship to Armada then? The game has had it's own issues, but it's in a **** of a lot better shape than X-Wing is. You'll even recognize the ships on the board!

If the core and xpacs weren't so expensive I would have done this already. It's pretty good huh? I stopped buying xwing months ago, maybe it's time. I hear games take a couple hours though, thats a steeper premium than money currently. :/ Can you play a game in like 1.5 hours?

5 hours ago, ficklegreendice said:

Wish we could reverse engineer some of those improvements into X-wing.

Aye, let's get on with X-Wing 2.0 already.

1 hour ago, any2cards said:

Indeed. Can't like this enough. I have spent nearly $4,000 on this game and have never played it once.

Still, I love it because I love the ships. They are pre-painted, so an old, decrepit, nearly senile, talent-less hack such as myself can collect the ships and just look at them in all their glory.

Nevertheless, every so often, I secretly wish for them to come out with X-Wing 2.0, and piss me off (because nothing will be compatible), so that my OCD for completeness will be satisfied, and I can kick this plastic crack habit once and for all.

Mistakes were made. Many. Wayyyyyyyyyyyyyy too MANY !!!

Now I need FFG's help to end this nightmare.

Fortunately I didn't make as many mistakes as you have but I did make quite a few. Everything plus some multiples. FWIW, the addiction never goes away completely. The gnawing feeling is just reduced to a manageable level.

I can understand the frustration felt when playing against certain lists but not the complaining.

They are to give you a false sense of hope that your ship might not die before rolling blanks on that focus token you saved during your attack.

The problem isn't bombs, It's the Mary Sue Bomber that drops them.

Nym.

Arguably a better dial than an X-Wing, can take a turret, can take a droid and a system, or a crew, can barrel roll... has a wildly useful pilot ability in either form. Can fight for two factions,(I'm surprised there isn't an Imperial version LOL), has infinite bombs, all of which do 2 damage instead of 1, has 10 hits to kill, same stats as Dash, a larger Freighter.... It's just too much for what is supposed to be a lumbering bomber.

I have no idea what the playtesters were thinking, I assume they just take their cheques and smile, they sure aren't working for the cause of game balance.

It doesn't break the game as much as the original Phantom did, but it does push certain ships onto the scrapheap which should not be there. I'm sure that FFG will 'fix' it with an anti bomb card upgrade that all ships can take, 'Mine Detector' anyone? Until then we must suffer... or play Nym and have fun annihilating all those weak ships that rely on Green Dice.

19 hours ago, ficklegreendice said:

Because if at that point you STILL depend on dice to save you, it's not much of a tactical game anymore

So, having a list which ignores one of the basic game rules is equal of having the game tactical from your point of view? So what is this game about? It's not maneuvering, TLT and PWT spam took care of that. It's not about using your actions to modify dice, because thanks to AB/AC and the new bombing meta removed the application of dice for ONE SIDE OF THE TABLE. Where's the tactics? With PS10 Nym you just don't have to care about anything. You drop bombs on wherever your opponent lands and then shoot it with AB/AC. That's not whining. I am having fun with this game. I'm just saying that red and green dice are a fundamental (and fun) part of the game.

The incredibly durable bomber frames are the underlying problem here. Scurrgs, K-wings and even punishers have dis-proportionally high hull values for their point cost. If K-wings were 3 points more expensive and Scurrgs 5, you'd see far fewer problems with them.

The first time I played against Nym my Fenn Rau died without firing a single shot, and while that was awful, it was also fun, since I learned to fly differently against him. It's just a pity that the X-wing is dwarfed by a ship with double the health at only 2 points more. Powercreep is real...

15 hours ago, Stoneface said:

True but fat turrets are still around as are swarms and Phantoms, etc., even though they're not seen often in competition. There's always going to be "the next big thing" until FFG quits revealing new content. When Guns for Hire drops, somebody will probably come up with an OP list that starts this debate anew just with a different target for our complaints.

I played against Fel and his cronies during his time in the spotlight so I understand some of the frustration caused by the bomb buddies of Nym, Doni and Dengar. At least you can land hits on a one or two agility ship. A R3 attack on Fel is against 5 greens, 2 focus tokens and an evade. The next round he's in R1 and dodging arcs. Real fun times. If you're the Imp, otherwise, not so much.

Not at my local club they are not... annoyingly at my club most people play nym or dengar and little else...pretty much everybody apart from myself who don't like those ships have largely fallen away and are doing different game systems.

1 hour ago, william1134 said:

Not at my local club they are not... annoyingly at my club most people play nym or dengar and little else...pretty much everybody apart from myself who don't like those ships have largely fallen away and are doing different game systems.

Guns for Hire is dropping soon along with Wave XII. Try putting together a Scum list to counter what's being used. Pick an opponent, study his moves to see if he has fallen into a certain pattern of moves. Watch for "tells". The builds are strong but not unbeatable. Do some outside the box planning.

Remember one thing. This is a game. Don't get discouraged because you're losing. Enjoy the camaraderie, enjoy the jplay.

Try setting up a HOTAC campaign to get the guys off of the meta and back to the game.