These topics got some discussion in May, but now that we're all a little older and a little wiser, I wanted to revisit the idea that HotE is a bit of an outlier for Big Boxes, and in more ways than one. While the campaign itself is certainly a departure from the more OT film centered stuff we've seen before, the wave itself seems missing some items that I at least consider common in other waves.

1. Non-canon Villains

2. Rebel Generics

Sad as I am to say it, I think the theory that the non-canon villains don't sell well may hold some water. Personally, I really liked them, and I thought making Terro and Weiss an alternative sculpt for a generic unit was a stroke of brilliance. I could totally see us getting a speeder bike villain, or another villain mounted on a creature of some sort. But it seems instead that HotE is simply going to go with Maul and Palpatine as villains this time (and, hopefully some significant Vader presence too).

The missing Rebel generics seems really odd to me, though. I always thought generics would be prioritized, as they encourage players to buy more than one of the same box. Of course they may not sell as well as popular characters, but they should at least in part make up for it by selling multiple copies.

Maybe the setting limits how the Rebels could really get much out of grunts, but I was also sad to not see them get anything.

So, any other theories on why we're missing these two things? Think they'll come back? Think this was the right call?

I think there are a couple of reasons: First, the HotE campaign is centered around the HEART of the Empire, i.e. Coruscant, Emperor Palpatine, Imperial core politics, rather than hinterland battles against Rebel forces, and there won't be many Rebel soldiers walking around in that theatre. Secondly, there are so many named characters they want to get out for this that there isn't much room for rank-and-file. Thirdly, the campaign is about heroes sneaking about the streets of Coruscant (as far as I can tell), which again means there won't be much room for support troopers. Also, I get the feeling that HotE is a Jedi/Force-focused box (in themes and story and allies if not with its heroes), so it is primarily a named characters romp.

I don't think there's anything disconcerting going on with HotE, although I do hope they get back to more rank-and-file in future boxes.

I'm with @angelman2 on this one.

Without knowing too much else about the specifics of the campaign (for my own spoiler-free reasons, forgive me if anything I say is contradicted in the preview articles), I would imagine it makes good thematic sense to cut the heroes off from too much support in the box. If the campaign allows for Side Missions, then you'll still have the option to recruit in some Allies that way, or maybe it'll lock you into Coruscant without Side Missions (as we're used to) at all.

I would see the presence of Maul/Ashoka being interesting because it makes for a good "choosing sides" moment in the game where you opt to help one over the other, as they'd not likely be on the same side in the context of the fiction or even in this campaign.

This new ally would be your only substantive help vs Palpatine and Vader, possibly with an assist from the Shapeshifter as well? We'll see.

From a sales point of view I doubt they're worried about the packs not selling well in broad strokes. Just put some key Skirmish material in it and you're fine. I'm sure the Rangers sold just fine, from the last expansion box for instance. The Echo Base Troopers were similarly a good purchase.

I don't think Heart is a half-assed attempt at anything really. More overall options to add in the the pool when you replay old campaigns, more things to mess around with for Skirmish. Bring it ("it" being the next product announcement, naturally!) on!

22 hours ago, cleardave said:

I don't think Heart is a half-assed attempt at anything really. More overall options to add in the the pool when you replay old campaigns, more things to mess around with for Skirmish. Bring it ("it" being the next product announcement, naturally!) on!

Totally, I'm pretty excited about it!

And yeah, I think we're pretty much on the same page with the rebel generics. Maybe that means it'll be more likely we'll get Rebel generics in the next blister wave (though I kinda hope not).

I think that the setting could've still made for a really interesting non-canon villain, and I'm not totally sold that we will see them return in the future. I was actually worried about them long before HotE was announced. A poll on BGG showed what people have been buying, and according to it, the generic villains seem to do a little worse than the other packs. People generally want their iconic stuff, and I think the "figure collector" class of fan may be more prevalent in this game than many would think.

Really like your idea of choosing to work with Maul or Ahsoka, though. Haven't considered that possibility yet!

4 hours ago, subtrendy2 said:

I think that the setting could've still made for a really interesting non-canon villain, and I'm not totally sold that we will see them return in the future. I was actually worried about them long before HotE was announced.

I'm okay with them conceptually, in fact I love that the game is loaded with original heroes and villains. That said, it's always bothered me the that the unique allies and villains associated with each box wave has been like:

Rebel- character you love from the movies

Merc- ranging from character you love to was at least in the movies

Empire- This is Kayn, it's cool he's with us.

Again, I like the original characters. Also it makes the most sense from a story perspective. I guess I just feel satisfied to see a Big Bad this time.

EDIT: just to add, I really hope they don't stop making original villains.

13 hours ago, Uninvited Guest said:

I'm okay with them conceptually, in fact I love that the game is loaded with original heroes and villains. That said, it's always bothered me the that the unique allies and villains associated with each box wave has been like:

Rebel- character you love from the movies

Merc- ranging from character you love to was at least in the movies

Empire- This is Kayn, it's cool he's with us.

Again, I like the original characters. Also it makes the most sense from a story perspective. I guess I just feel satisfied to see a Big Bad this time.

EDIT: just to add, I really hope they don't stop making original villains.

I'm not totally sure I understand what you mean by your examples from the factions. Are you saying that the unique characters we have are all facsimiles of existing canon characters?

In some cases, I guess I agree. It's pretty obvious, for instance, that Sorin and Weiss are heavily based on Veers, for instance.

But I think we've gotten a lot of really original stuff, too. I mean, Gideon, Loku, Feralo, Murne, Mak, even Davith are all characters that just off the top of my head really stand out from the canon. And the Imperial villains are all pretty much defined by just being cartoonishly evil, but mechanically I think they add some interesting things to the game, and they offer some really cool mounts.

54 minutes ago, subtrendy2 said:

I'm not totally sure I understand what you mean by your examples from the factions. Are you saying that the unique characters we have are all facsimiles of existing canon characters?

In some cases, I guess I agree. It's pretty obvious, for instance, that Sorin and Weiss are heavily based on Veers, for instance.

But I think we've gotten a lot of really original stuff, too. I mean, Gideon, Loku, Feralo, Murne, Mak, even Davith are all characters that just off the top of my head really stand out from the canon. And the Imperial villains are all pretty much defined by just being cartoonishly evil, but mechanically I think they add some interesting things to the game, and they offer some really cool mounts.

I think he means:

RTH Hero: Here's Leia! (canon)

RTH Merc: Here's Dengar! (canon)

RTH Imp: Here's Sorin! (who??)

Sure, Sorin is analogous to Veers but he's not "Veers".

Two words. Boba Fett. He needs a fix. I'm sure it's coming, but man it's gonna be a while.

1 hour ago, NeverBetTheFett said:

Two words. Boba Fett. He needs a fix. I'm sure it's coming, but man it's gonna be a while.

He's priority #1 now. Could be just a few months if he comes in the next wave of blister packs.

1 hour ago, FSD said:

I think he means:

RTH Hero: Here's Leia! (canon)

RTH Merc: Here's Dengar! (canon)

RTH Imp: Here's Sorin! (who??)

Sure, Sorin is analogous to Veers but he's not "Veers".

Ah, that makes sense.

Yeah, I think the Empire really has that problem. There really aren't a lot of combative Imperial uniques that could work. Vader, of course, and Inquisitors. But including the officers named in the films(almost all of whom are fleet officers anyway) might make the game seem really small. It's one thing to accept that some rando named Weiss is leading stormtroopers on a raid. It'd be another if we replaced him with Tarkin.

So yeah, I can totally see how this is really hampering the game, but thematically I also personally think it's a good call.

20 minutes ago, subtrendy2 said:

Ah, that makes sense.

Yeah, I think the Empire really has that problem. There really aren't a lot of combative Imperial uniques that could work.

Most of the ones from the movies that could have made it, were Force choked to death by Vader

I'd be fine with all those generic villains, if we already had those canon and maybe EU villains. Tarkin, Veers, Thrawn, Piet, Xizor, Kallus, some Inquisitors ... there are so many of them. We are already running out of OT canon heroes (Luke is already there twice!), there are only a few Mercs to go, but there are lots of Empire characters still missing.

11 minutes ago, DerBaer said:

I'd be fine with all those generic villains, if we already had those canon and maybe EU villains. Tarkin, Veers, Thrawn, Piet, Xizor, Kallus, some Inquisitors ... there are so many of them. We are already running out of OT canon heroes (Luke is already there twice!), there are only a few Mercs to go, but there are lots of Empire characters still missing.

Indeed! I think HotE is missed opportunity to introduce Xizor and Dash Rendar... it looks sooooooo like Shadows of the Empire idea and is set in the similar time period.