10 hours ago, Force Majeure said:

So... showing up at the game store in my pajamas and slippers: Too casual?

10 hours ago, SabineKey said:

Depends on the pajamas. If we're talking a t-shirt and sleeping pants, I'd allow it. Bonus points if a bath robe is involved.

9 hours ago, Darth Meanie said:

Required kit:

And a shower. Do not forget the shower.

9 hours ago, SabineKey said:

Yes. The shower is mandatory.

9 hours ago, wurms said:

WITH SOAP! DONT FORGET THE SOAP!

For me, "Fly Casual" is :

1. Not being uptight and argumentative about simple forgotten interactions. For example; "Oh, uh, this ship with Mindlink took a Focus action but I forgot to put a focus token down on this other ship with mindlink." That's okay, just put one down, no big deal.

2. Being friendly and a sporting opponent even when you're losing, or in the face of your opponent's incredible dice rolls. Take it on the chin and don't make your opponent feel guilty about it. Make winning a rewarding experience for them.

3. Not judging players for their list choices and recognising that different people get different things out of the game. Some players like taking fun, thematic, jank squads. Other players enjoy flying competitive meta-squads. Both are legitimate choices and I try my best to maintain a cheerful demeanour either way.

4. Taking a proactive stance in making playing the game an enjoyable experience for other people, win or lose. Offer advice to your opponent if they're not sure what to do; be helpful if the player is new; congratulate opponents.

For me, "Fly Casual" is not :

1. An excuse to allow your opponent to deliberately cheat.

2. Something to use against your opponent to allow you to cheat.

3. A reason to be aggressive, or rude, against opponents when they are following the rules.

4. A reason to bully players into playing the game the way you personally think it should be played.

10 hours ago, SabineKey said:

And while I can see that interpretation, I got a "I'm bring my a-game, and I want you to do the same" tone.

I might be wrong, of course. Won't fully know unless Varyag decides he wants to clarify. But this is actually a rare optimistic moment about human nature , for me. So I'm gonna enjoy it while it lasts, heh.

I can appreciate where Varyag's coming from, but I heard something the other day during a X-Wing podcast that made me reconsider this approach when playing casual games. They had a guest on who had placed really high (like runner up or final 4) at one of the recent bigger tournaments, I can't recall who or if it was GenCon or NOVA, one of the bigger recent premier levels, but he was talking about how he and his cohorts prepare for tournaments. They do takebacks, change dial if its an obvious mistake, and will allow each other to get missed opportunities, tokens and such during casual games because it makes them better.

The reasoning is this: Once you are post cut, and approaching the final tables, you are playing against people that are not going to be missing triggers and flying onto rocks and off the board. You want to practice your lists against people that are flying "perfectly". Practicing against someone who missed a trigger at a critical moment is not going to prepare you to fly against the types of players that reach the quarter or semifinals of major tournaments, because they won't.

I need help with this issue. I get hot and tense when I'm losing.

6 hours ago, GreenDragoon said:

That is pretty different from fly casual, so naturall you don't like it.

I wouldn't mind playing you with this mentality. I would offer first to give you some leeway. But you will always have the option to decline - I know because I do.

In that regard I actually DO put you into a difficult situation: do you accept my offer and reject your principles for an advantage, or do you decline? It's your choice. That doesn't mean I don't respect you, more the opposite: I trust that you will make the decision you want to.

I try to bring my a-game, and I want to win against yours - even if I have to remind you of stuff because you're obviously not on your a-game in that moment.

Like I said before, while this is the philosophy I think of myself using, in practice I'm reasonably lenient. I will take offers to take a forgotten action or do a proper maneuver if my dial slipped and generally offer them myself. However, there are situations where I won't take an offer because I do feel I made an honest mistake and need to live with it. There is a difference between helping someone bring their a-game and letting someone win. I have no problem with the former.

Just for some historical perspective, Fly Casual started off as an attitude some people (can't recall as I'm not in the tournament scene) promoted about attitude at tournaments. It was a catch all phrase meant to keep the tournaments light hearted and fun. Don't be a jerk was the general rule.

After a couple years, there developed groups of people that liked playing X-wing, but not tournament level. It was missions and iconic ships so people could just have fun and make pew pew noises. This was called "Casual X-wing". This is where the split comes, especially when people like me totally took the Fly Casual phrase to mean flying non-tournament games. So, for the people who go to tournaments it means don't be a jerk at events. For non-tournament players it means non-meta or tournament level games.

Yes, I totally helped spread the phrase as meaning not tournament way when I knew some people totally used it for tournaments. I'm unrepentant about it.

59 minutes ago, kris40k said:

I can appreciate where Varyag's coming from, but I heard something the other day during a X-Wing podcast that made me reconsider this approach when playing casual games. They had a guest on who had placed really high (like runner up or final 4) at one of the recent bigger tournaments, I can't recall who or if it was GenCon or NOVA, one of the bigger recent premier levels, but he was talking about how he and his cohorts prepare for tournaments. They do takebacks, change dial if its an obvious mistake, and will allow each other to get missed opportunities, tokens and such during casual games because it makes them better.

The reasoning is this: Once you are post cut, and approaching the final tables, you are playing against people that are not going to be missing triggers and flying onto rocks and off the board. You want to practice your lists against people that are flying "perfectly". Practicing against someone who missed a trigger at a critical moment is not going to prepare you to fly against the types of players that reach the quarter or semifinals of major tournaments, because they won't.

That's a fair point and does have a place in preparation for big tournaments, but I think it still has a place. Yes, your opponent making mistakes at high level is unlikely, but there is a possibility of it, so learning how to capitalize on it wouldn't go amiss. Likewise, I feel a "no takebacks" approach can push someone to eliminate their errors. Potentially push them to improve their memory so to keep up with all the triggers.

Now, this is all a bit subjective. People learn in a variety of different ways. Some ways work better for others and some ways are more a detriment than a help to some. I personally think a balanced approach, such as preparing for a tournament with players of different philosophies, is what works for me.

16 minutes ago, heychadwick said:

Just for some historical perspective, Fly Casual started off as an attitude some people (can't recall as I'm not in the tournament scene) promoted about attitude at tournaments.

Doug Kinney (the first World Champion) was the one who really pushed the idea into the open, with the help of some other people from around that time. See: https://teamcovenant.com/general/the-fly-casual-campaign

10 minutes ago, jesper_h said:

Doug Kinney (the first World Champion) was the one who really pushed the idea into the open, with the help of some other people from around that time. See: https://teamcovenant.com/general/the-fly-casual-campaign

That's it. I'm far from the Midwest and all the major events, so I couldn't recall all the details.

56 minutes ago, heychadwick said:

Just for some historical perspective, Fly Casual started off as an attitude some people (can't recall as I'm not in the tournament scene) promoted about attitude at tournaments. It was a catch all phrase meant to keep the tournaments light hearted and fun. Don't be a jerk was the general rule.

After a couple years, there developed groups of people that liked playing X-wing, but not tournament level. It was missions and iconic ships so people could just have fun and make pew pew noises. This was called "Casual X-wing". This is where the split comes, especially when people like me totally took the Fly Casual phrase to mean flying non-tournament games. So, for the people who go to tournaments it means don't be a jerk at events. For non-tournament players it means non-meta or tournament level games.

Yes, I totally helped spread the phrase as meaning not tournament way when I knew some people totally used it for tournaments. I'm unrepentant about it.

I think this is pretty much my own thoughts on this thread. A lot of confusion between "fly casual" and "casual x-wing." You can play casual X-wing without the "fly casual" attitude (not fun!) and you can play competitive tournaments and "fly casual." I try to fly both casual x-wing and tournaments with a "fly casual" attitude. I want to have fun. I want my opponent to have fun. I want to win, don't get me wrong, and I'm sure my opponent is out to win as well.

I've played games meant to be fun with those who were clearly not there for.. shall we say, shared enjoyment of the game. This is not a finger pointing at competitive players because most of them I've played are pretty cool too. It's a much smaller minority in both casual and competitive formats that fit into this group.

2 hours ago, kris40k said:

I can appreciate where Varyag's coming from, but I heard something the other day during a X-Wing podcast that made me reconsider this approach when playing casual games. They had a guest on who had placed really high (like runner up or final 4) at one of the recent bigger tournaments, I can't recall who or if it was GenCon or NOVA, one of the bigger recent premier levels, but he was talking about how he and his cohorts prepare for tournaments. They do takebacks, change dial if its an obvious mistake, and will allow each other to get missed opportunities, tokens and such during casual games because it makes them better.

The reasoning is this: Once you are post cut, and approaching the final tables, you are playing against people that are not going to be missing triggers and flying onto rocks and off the board. You want to practice your lists against people that are flying "perfectly". Practicing against someone who missed a trigger at a critical moment is not going to prepare you to fly against the types of players that reach the quarter or semifinals of major tournaments, because they won't.

I don't see how this is a good idea, if you are making a mistake you need to learn how to deal with your own mistakes.

You need to practice with all your mistakes.

My favorite way of flying casual and restoring balance to the game: Only flying mirror matchups. Faction v. Faction the game is perfectly balanced if you only fly Reb v. Reb, Imp v. Imp, and Scum v. Scum. It's actually really nice.

28 minutes ago, Icelom said:

I don't see how this is a good idea, if you are making a mistake you need to learn how to deal with your own mistakes.

You need to practice with all your mistakes.

Its not about your mistakes, but your opponents mistakes. How I understood his explanation of this being a good idea:

If you win a game because one of your ships got another round of firing that it should not have because your opponent got flustered and forgot his Dengar revenge shot, or did a 2 hard and landed a corner on a rock when a 3 hard would have been fine in the same situation, did that game really help prepare you for top-level play ? Did it really show you if your list is strong enough to compete? Likely not, you probably should have lost that game.

If your only goal is to make it past the lower rank players in swiss, winning by the grace of your opponent making mistakes will work, but its not going to get you any further than that. If your goal is to actually win a major tournament, you and your list better be able to perform against players that aren't making those kinds of mistakes. That is the argument for allowing to opponent to correct.

As far as your own mistakes, considering both of you are practicing to win Worlds: If you realize you made a mistake, you can recognize that and learn from it. Short of conceding the game and starting over, which is a bit extreme, you can acknowledge your mistake, commit it to memory, and rollback the game state and proceed to continue practicing. Otherwise, your game isn't representative of what you can expect to see at the high levels.

27 minutes ago, kris40k said:

Its not about your mistakes, but your opponents mistakes. How I understood his explanation of this being a good idea:

If you win a game because one of your ships got another round of firing that it should not have because your opponent got flustered and forgot his Dengar revenge shot, or did a 2 hard and landed a corner on a rock when a 3 hard would have been fine in the same situation, did that game really help prepare you for top-level play ? Did it really show you if your list is strong enough to compete? Likely not, you probably should have lost that game.

If your only goal is to make it past the lower rank players in swiss, winning by the grace of your opponent making mistakes will work, but its not going to get you any further than that. If your goal is to actually win a major tournament, you and your list better be able to perform against players that aren't making those kinds of mistakes. That is the argument for allowing to opponent to correct.

As far as your own mistakes, considering both of you are practicing to win Worlds: If you realize you made a mistake, you can recognize that and learn from it. Short of conceding the game and starting over, which is a bit extreme, you can acknowledge your mistake, commit it to memory, and rollback the game state and proceed to continue practicing. Otherwise, your game isn't representative of what you can expect to see at the high levels.

If you are rolling back your mistakes you are not practicing to deal with mistakes and you are going to make them after 8+ games.

I just disagree with the aproch, might work for some but I need to practice dealing with the consequences of my own mistakes because I know late in a tournament I will make them.

Fly casual to me is don't just play 100 point games, play 150, 200 and more. Play same type squadrons with a mix of pilots. Don't include Vader, hand and luke just because they are so good or are hot in the current meta. Play missions and just have fun, think about the story rather than just the game.

Fly casual is easy. Just remember that it's a 2 player game and both players need to have fun.

16 minutes ago, Sarcon said:

Fly casual is easy. Just remember that it's a 2 player game and both players need to have fun.

...or, if the other person doesn't enjoy the game, it's because of his own issues rather than because you were being a jerk.

The term as coined by Doug Kinney was about attitude. Not being a **** about gaming, congratulating your opponent on the win and rolling 4 natural crits. Not throwing a tantrum about blanking your defence roll and drawing 2 direct hits. Allowing you're opponent to take that target lock they forgot from FCS because... why would they not have other than forgetting? Treating all other players with dignity and respect whether you win or loose at a club night or worlds. It's about enjoying the game for what it is; fun.

It has nothing whatsoever to do with competitive or casual lists or being lax with the rules and sloppy game play. It's all about being the type of person you'd like to play. Unless you're a socially deprived mug who looks for conflict to find self worth, then no one wants to play that person anyways and eventually you'll find yourself wishing for anyone to play.

On 9/19/2017 at 0:21 PM, kris40k said:

Its not about your mistakes, but your opponents mistakes. How I understood his explanation of this being a good idea:

If you win a game because one of your ships got another round of firing that it should not have because your opponent got flustered and forgot his Dengar revenge shot, or did a 2 hard and landed a corner on a rock when a 3 hard would have been fine in the same situation, did that game really help prepare you for top-level play ? Did it really show you if your list is strong enough to compete? Likely not, you probably should have lost that game.

If your only goal is to make it past the lower rank players in swiss, winning by the grace of your opponent making mistakes will work, but its not going to get you any further than that. If your goal is to actually win a major tournament, you and your list better be able to perform against players that aren't making those kinds of mistakes. That is the argument for allowing to opponent to correct.

As far as your own mistakes, considering both of you are practicing to win Worlds: If you realize you made a mistake, you can recognize that and learn from it. Short of conceding the game and starting over, which is a bit extreme, you can acknowledge your mistake, commit it to memory, and rollback the game state and proceed to continue practicing. Otherwise, your game isn't representative of what you can expect to see at the high levels.

I usually take this position when I'm playing with a my son at home, my friend at his house, an acquaintance at the FLGS on casual night, or cool people on Vassal for this very reason.

Its the Dojo. You need to practice and what have you learned if your opponent is making mistakes and not playing their list to its capabilities?

Me and my friend are playing this way: The last winner have to keep is list or have to show it, so the oponent get a chance to built a specific list against it.

This way, we are almost never playing the same list 3 times in a row, and we stay close to 1-1 each plays.

This is not a compulsory rule, and we often play with both hidden list , but this way is fun for us

3 hours ago, player2422845 said:

Me and my friend are playing this way: The last winner have to keep is list or have to show it, so the oponent get a chance to built a specific list against it.

This way, we are almost never playing the same list 3 times in a row, and we stay close to 1-1 each plays.

This is not a compulsory rule, and we often play with both hidden list , but this way is fun for us

That's not 'flying casual.' That's a casual play format. Different. Not that what you're doing is wrong, it's just not related to the question... (also, not something you're alone in misunderstanding...)

By the by - hidden lists sounds like a lot of fun. I might have to try that sometime.

17 hours ago, Smutpedler said:

It has nothing whatsoever to do with competitive or casual lists or being lax with the rules and sloppy game play. It's all about being the type of person you'd like to play. Unless you're a socially deprived mug who looks for conflict to find self worth, then no one wants to play that person anyways and eventually you'll find yourself wishing for anyone to play.

....except.....some of us (including me) have been using Fly Casual to totally mean non-tournament gaming. Yes, the original one had nothing to do with it, but numerous people have been using it for a whole new meaning.

31 minutes ago, heychadwick said:

....except.....some of us (including me) have been using Fly Casual to totally mean non-tournament gaming. Yes, the original one had nothing to do with it, but numerous people have been using it for a whole new meaning.

I getcha, it's just I still totally respect Doug's ethos and it's always stuck with me since my day 1. Not saying you're wrong to do so... but to me it's always been about being respectful however you choose to play the game as opposed to HOW you choose to play the game Personally; I enjoy HotAC as much as Regionals and I'll always "Fly casual" whatever form the game takes on for me. I enjoy your podcast btw, keep it coming